Your irish 22 for the 2015 rugby world cup

The Pheasant2

Grimebox wrote: »

I dunno. I don't think anyone did themselves any favours on the Argentina tour. I think Cave put his hand for 13 but that's about it.

I'd also say Ruddock showed he's a more than competent 6, possibly nailing down a bench position assuming POM fit

jimbo94s

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

I'd also say Ruddock showed he's a more than competent 6, possibly nailing down a bench position assuming POM fit

Zebo

molloyjh

jimbo94s wrote: »

Zebo

I'm not sure Zebo did a huge amount tbh. Defensively he's shown improvements and he wasn't bad going forwards but some of his decision making was poor and he was about as useful at ruck time as a wet paper towel. He looked to get involved in a few rucks but when he got there you could see he had no idea what to do. He hasn't hurt his chances, but he hasn't staked a major claim either.

Henderson we all knew was capable and I think he really showed that. Even though it may be no surprise to us he still needed to do the work. The same with Ruddock after the season he has had. Both have now basically laid down a marker demanding more game time and will be looking to try and force their way into the starting XV.

Diack and Marmion made themselves viable options in the first test too, although may not have done quite enough to force their way into match day squads just yet. They have made sure to let the squad and the coaches know they are there though. Yes we learned that Cave is a real option at 13, but more importantly I think we learned that we probably need more of a playmaker at 12 like Marshall and that Cave doesn't fit that bill. We probably learned too that Ferg isn't a 13 (although I thought we had learned that at Leinster).

There's quite a lot to be taken from the tour overall, and what's most disappointing is the injuries that prevented us learning even more.

The Pheasant2

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

I'd also say Ruddock showed he's a more than competent 6, possibly nailing down a bench position assuming POM fit

I think if all players are fit, the 23 will contain

6. POM
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
19. Henry

I think when choosing that 19 shirt, you have to factor into it the positions that the players on the pitch can cover.

In the below table, there's one combination I wouldn't be happy to see, and that's the Ruddock at 6, POM at 7 combo.

Henry Ruddock

POM Injured 6. SOB, 7.Henry, 8. Heaslip 6. Ruddock 7.SOB, 8. Heaslip
SOB Injured 6. POM, 7. Henry, 8. Heaslip 6. Ruddock 7. POM 8. Heaslip
Heaslip Injured 6. POM, 7. Henry, 8. SOB 6. Ruddock 7. SOB 8. POM


Given how SOB plays the game, injuries etc, I don't think that would be a horribly unlikely combination if Ruddock was chosen to bench.

I personally think that Ruddock would have to get himself ahead of POM into a starting role to get a 23 shirt (POM would not bench either in that case). I don't think there's room in a matchday 23 for two players that play predominantly at 6 (and POM also has more versatility as he could be trusted at 8, and would make a 7 in an emergency. Ruddock I feel would make an emergency 8, but would not be suitable at 7).

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I think if all players are fit, the 23 will contain

6. POM
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
19. Henry

I think when choosing that 19 shirt, you have to factor into it the positions that the players on the pitch can cover.

In the below table, there's one combination I wouldn't be happy to see, and that's the Ruddock at 6, POM at 7 combo.

Henry Ruddock

POM Injured 6. SOB, 7.Henry, 8. Heaslip 6. Ruddock 7.SOB, 8. Heaslip
SOB Injured 6. POM, 7. Henry, 8. Heaslip 6. Ruddock 7. POM 8. Heaslip
Heaslip Injured 6. POM, 7. Henry, 8. SOB 6. Ruddock 7. SOB 8. POM


Given how SOB plays the game, injuries etc, I don't think that would be a horribly unlikely combination if Ruddock was chosen to bench.

I personally think that Ruddock would have to get himself ahead of POM into a starting role to get a 23 shirt (POM would not bench either in that case). I don't think there's room in a matchday 23 for two players that play predominantly at 6.

You also need to factor into it that if TOD gets selected by Schmidt again his form is almost guaranteed to go through the roof. That's how it works right!?

franglan

bilston wrote: »

Did Leader not score a try against Ulster back in April?

Shane Layden is a mystery to me. He looked a serious prospect at 20s level.

He's had a series of injuries, last year was basically a write off. Scored a number of tries for the under 20s in the six nations must be two years ago now. Really hope he pushes on this year.

stripeypaint

bit late to this but here goes.
15.R.Kearney
14. A.Trimble
13. G.Darcy
12.I.Madigan
11.S.Zebo
10.J.Sexton
9.C.Murray
8.J.Heaslip
7.P.O'Mahony
6.S.O'Brien
5.D.Toner
4.P.O'Connell
3.M.Ross
2.R.Best
1.C.Healy
subs
Cronin,McGrath,Strauss,Jackson,D.Kearney,I.Boss,Jennings,

danthefan

Just on the backrow discussion above, Henry is not a good bench option imo. His strengths lie overwhelmingly in defence, so if you need a bit of impact then he doesn't really provide it. Ruddock brings a lot of power from the bench and he's a really good lineout option.

Tbh I don't think it's beyond possibility that Ruddock will be starting come the RWC.

The Lost Sheep

stripeypaint wrote: »

bit late to this but here goes.
15.R.Kearney
14. A.Trimble
13. G.Darcy
12.I.Madigan
11.S.Zebo
10.J.Sexton
9.C.Murray
8.J.Heaslip
7.P.O'Mahony
6.S.O'Brien
5.D.Toner
4.P.O'Connell
3.M.Ross
2.R.Best
1.C.Healy
subs
Cronin,McGrath,Strauss,Jackson,D.Kearney,I.Boss,Jennings,

Not a hope of that centre partnership. Pack good def be like that. Don't see McGrath as TH prop cover nor Jennings near Bench and who is your 2nd row on the bench?

stripeypaint

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Pack good def be like that. Don't see McGrath as TH prop cover nor Jennings near Bench and who is your 2nd row on the bench?

I'm a back, I have no idea what Im doing

part time punk

danthefan wrote: »

Just on the backrow discussion above, Henry is not a good bench option imo. His strengths lie overwhelmingly in defence, so if you need a bit of impact then he doesn't really provide it. Ruddock brings a lot of power from the bench and he's a really good lineout option.

Tbh I don't think it's beyond possibility that Ruddock will be starting come the RWC.

Back row of POM, Henry and Heaslip pretty well during the six nations. Is continuing that with SOB as a real impact sub off the bench totally out of the question? I know it's probably crazy talk but it's silly season after all

danthefan

part time punk wrote: »

Is continuing that with SOB as a real impact sub off the bench totally out of the question?

If SOB plays like he can play then it is completely out of the question, yes. He's a much better player than either Henry or POM.

The Pheasant2

stripeypaint wrote: »

I'm a back, I have no idea what Im doing

That's no excuse!

bilston

danthefan wrote: »

Just on the backrow discussion above, Henry is not a good bench option imo. His strengths lie overwhelmingly in defence, so if you need a bit of impact then he doesn't really provide it. Ruddock brings a lot of power from the bench and he's a really good lineout option.

Tbh I don't think it's beyond possibility that Ruddock will be starting come the RWC.

Henry is a perfectly good bench option if SOB and POM are already on the pitch. Not that I even agree that he is solely a defensive O/S, but even if he was you need players like too in the last 15 minutes of a test match as well.

bilston

part time punk wrote: »

Back row of POM, Henry and Heaslip pretty well during the six nations. Is continuing that with SOB as a real impact sub off the bench totally out of the question? I know it's probably crazy talk but it's silly season after all

SOB is Ireland's best player so if fit he starts.

Buer

danthefan wrote: »

Tbh I don't think it's beyond possibility that Ruddock will be starting come the RWC.

I don't think he will be but it's certainly a possibility. Since he had his hip surgery and came back in late 2012, he has gone from strength to strength, reminding us of the player he promised to be when he was 19 and the hottest prospect in the country.

He reminds me of Simon Easterby, a criminally underrated player by his detractors. Ruddock is strong in the line out, ferociously powerful and has a terrific engine. Still misses the odd tackle though.

His carrying has improved again and he has a surprising turn of pace for a man that resembles a JCB.

I can see him being a fixture in the Irish 23 within 2 years.

Tox56

bilston wrote: »

Henry is a perfectly good bench option if SOB and POM are already on the pitch. Not that I even agree that he is solely a defensive O/S, but even if he was you need players like too in the last 15 minutes of a test match as well.

A player of his quality is never a 'bad' option but he's competing with Ruddock or POM for that bench spot, he won't default to the bench because he's the 4th best backrower, he will need to bring something to the game the others won't. It will be horses for courses I think

former legend

Ruddock has been excellent this season and again in Argentina. His problem is that POM has shown his ability at international level which Ruddock has yet to do really; he'll get a chance alright, I'd expect him to start at least one game in November, whether he'll get enough game time to dislodge POM is another question (and he'd probably need POM to have a bit of a dip in form too).

CIARAN_BOYLE

Tox56 wrote: »

A player of his quality is never a 'bad' option but he's competing with Ruddock or POM for that bench spot, he won't default to the bench because he's the 4th best backrower, he will need to bring something to the game the others won't. It will be horses for courses I think

Cover.

I'm not really sure that POM can cover 7 so there isn't room in the 23 for Ruddock and POM. If SOB is starting he can cover 6 and 8 so whoever is on the bench just needs to cover SOB.

That would be Henry.

Buer

former legend wrote: »

Ruddock has been excellent this season and again in Argentina. His problem is that POM has shown his ability at international level which Ruddock has yet to do really; he'll get a chance alright, I'd expect him to start at least one game in November, whether he'll get enough game time to dislodge POM is another question (and he'd probably need POM to have a bit of a dip in form too).

Thing is, we just need an injury to any of Heaslip, POM, Henry or SOB and I'd expect Ruddock to be the likely man coming into the 23.

POM and SOB are both injury prone. I'd say Ruddock will pick up two or three caps before the end of the next 6N.

Once you get into the 23 and play well, all bets are off.

It's unlikely but Ruddock is a similar case to someone like Dave Kearney. He doesn't make many eye catching plays but he does the nuts and bolts well and consistently.

Tox56

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Cover.

I'm not really sure that POM can cover 7 so there isn't room in the 23 for Ruddock and POM. If SOB is starting he can cover 6 and 8 so whoever is on the bench just needs to cover SOB.

That would be Henry.

That is true. It's a tricky one because if Ruddock does start at 6 (as I expect him to do at least once) POM is a better bench option than Henry in terms of impact and versatility (and arguably ability) but the position he's weakest in is where Henry excels.

There's also the angle that SOB is going to play 80 so if he doesn't get injured the 'cover' on the bench will actually be replacing the player they weren't picked to cover, and he either plays out of position or you move SOB out of his best position.

It will be very interesting to see where Schmidt goes, I think he really rates Henry, and although I don't really know where he stands on Ruddock he gave him a few big starts at the end of his last season with Leinster iirc

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

A player of his quality is never a 'bad' option but he's competing with Ruddock or POM for that bench spot, he won't default to the bench because he's the 4th best backrower, he will need to bring something to the game the others won't. It will be horses for courses I think

Yeah, but who covers 7 if Henry isn't on the bench? SOB covers 6 and 8 and POM covers 8, Ruddock is a 6 who can play 8, Heaslip is an 8.

Edit - oops, point already made!!

padser

part time punk wrote: »

Back row of POM, Henry and Heaslip pretty well during the six nations. Is continuing that with SOB as a real impact sub off the bench totally out of the question? I know it's probably crazy talk but it's silly season after all

I agree

A fit and in reasonable form SOB is our best 6 and our best 7. Leaving him on the bench would be pure madness.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

It will be very interesting to see where Schmidt goes, I think he really rates Henry, and although I don't really know where he stands on Ruddock he gave him a few big starts at the end of his last season with Leinster iirc

Always got the impression that Schmidt was a big fan. He gave him those games but also named him in the 23 for a big HEC game when Jenno was available. He's played him a couple of times at openside too.

I think it's ridiculously tight between our top 3 or 4 flankers. A lot of unknowns too in terms of how guys like SOB and POM return from long term injuries.

jm08

Buer wrote: »

Always got the impression that Schmidt was a big fan. He gave him those games but also named him in the 23 for a big HEC game when Jenno was available. He's played him a couple of times at openside too.

I think it's ridiculously tight between our top 3 or 4 flankers. A lot of unknowns too in terms of how guys like SOB and POM return from long term injuries.

If Henry was as highly rated as you think he is, he would be on a central contract.

Heaslip, SOB & POM are all on central contracts so its highly unlikely that any of them will be dropped.

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

If Henry was as highly rated as you think he is, he would be on a central contract.

Heaslip, SOB & POM are all on central contracts so its highly unlikely that any of them will be dropped.

Aye that's what Joe picks the team on. Central contracts.

So I take it Deccie Fitzpatrick will be a fixture in the side next season?

jm08

bilston wrote: »

Aye that's what Joe picks the team on. Central contracts.

FFS so I take it Deccie Fitzpatrick will be a fixture in the side next season?

I don't think Deccie Fitz is on a central contract (but being a prop, he might well be as there is a short supply). Backrowers are a completely different scenario though.

It seems though that the IRFU try and give every province a few, Ulster don't have that many (Best, Bowe & Trimble and there are rumours that Payne has one as well). Leinster have Healy, Ross, SOB, Heislip & R Kearney. Munster have POC, D Ryan, POM, Murray & Earls. Ulster would seem to have a spare one or two available.

They really are a rare comodity nowadays, so yes, I think I'd expect to see those players ahead of everyone else as they are obviously rated higher as they are getting more pay than anyone else.

Quite a few of those centrally contracted players signed them in Schmidt's tenure.

former legend

Going to nip this in the bud now.

SCHMIDT WON'T GIVE A SH1T WHAT SORT OF CONTRACT PLAYERS ARE ON.

danthefan

former legend wrote: »

Going to nip this in the bud now.

Oh I wouldn't count on that.

CatFromHue

Considering how tightly controlled the info on central contracts is I'm not sure if even Schmidt'd know who's on one!

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think Deccie Fitz is on a central contract (but being a prop, he might well be as there is a short supply). Backrowers are a completely different scenario though.

It seems though that the IRFU try and give every province a few, Ulster don't have that many (Best, Bowe & Trimble and there are rumours that Payne has one as well). Leinster have Healy, Ross, SOB, Heislip & R Kearney. Munster have POC, D Ryan, POM, Murray & Earls. Ulster would seem to have a spare one or two available.

They really are a rare comodity nowadays, so yes, I think I'd expect to see those players ahead of everyone else as they are obviously rated higher as they are getting more pay than anyone else.

Quite a few of those centrally contracted players signed them in Schmidt's tenure.

That may all be true but I don't think Schmidt will pick his team based on who has a central contract and who doesn't. That said POM, SOB and Heaslip is our first choice back row.

b.gud

Figured I'd give it a shot

R. Kearney
Trimble
Henshaw
D'Arcy
Earls
Sexton
Murray
Healy
Strauss
Moore
Toner
O'Connell
POM
SOB
Heaslip

Subs
Best
McGrath
Ross
Henderson
Ruddock
Reddan
Jackson
Payne

Nothing too crazy Payne at 23 is probably my biggest curve ball though I don't think it's out of the question. Think Strauss and Moore will overtake Best and Ross this year. If Keith Earls can stay injury free and get back his former from last year he def has a chance to start although there's about at least 3, being conservative, other wingers that you could say they same of. Would like to see Marmion ahead of Reddan but don't think it'll happen this world cup

mfceiling

Does anyone reckon Henshaw will make the 13?

He's not going to be playing top tier if Connacht are pushed out of the new HC.

Is he getting a run at 13 or 15 with Connacht?

There's not really a huge amount of games before the world cup and Joe might try Payne there as well as give Cave another try, so will Henshaw get a chance to make the green 13 his own?

shuffol

I think Ruddock starting 6 with POM benching could be a really good use of resources depending on the opposition. POM was our standout player in the games where we were on top of the opposition, in the more physical games against France and England he struggled to impose himself as much. Have Ruddock impose himself for 50 mins and then bring on POM when the game breaks up a bit. It'd be great having him and SOB on the field at the same time when teams may be a little slower to support at the breakdown. We could see a similiar situation coming to pass with McGrath and Healy. Imagine Healy and POM both coming off the bench against tired opposition.

Cant rule out Henry either, his workrate is incredible and seemingly the bigger the game the better he plays.

b.gud

mfceiling wrote: »

Does anyone reckon Henshaw will make the 13?

He's not going to be playing top tier if Connacht are pushed out of the new HC.

Is he getting a run at 13 or 15 with Connacht?

There's not really a huge amount of games before the world cup and Joe might try Payne there as well as give Cave another try, so will Henshaw get a chance to make the green 13 his own?

I'd say he'll be pretty much play exclusively 13, I doubt we'll be able to say the same of Payne, next year now that we've signed Malian and Leader has really stupid up in the 15 jersey as well. that means he'll be playing challenge cup rugby, possibly even at knock out stages, at 13. So I guess the question is will Joe feel that he is being tested enough and only Joe can answer that. I do definitely think he'll get at least one game there in November.

Tox56

mfceiling wrote: »

Does anyone reckon Henshaw will make the 13?

He's not going to be playing top tier if Connacht are pushed out of the new HC.

Is he getting a run at 13 or 15 with Connacht?

There's not really a huge amount of games before the world cup and Joe might try Payne there as well as give Cave another try, so will Henshaw get a chance to make the green 13 his own?

I think Schmidt really likes Henshaw, he had him as the 13 replacement ahead of some good options in the AIs against Australia, and with Muliaina arriving and Griffin leaving he'll only be getting more gametime at 13 for Connacht next year.

jm08

former legend wrote: »

Going to nip this in the bud now.

SCHMIDT WON'T GIVE A SH1T WHAT SORT OF CONTRACT PLAYERS ARE ON.

So who decides who should get central contracts? You seriously think the Ireland management have no input into who they want to have full control of?

Those on central contracts earn more than those who are not.

It would also be important for the Ireland sponsors like O2 who would want access to players who are starting to use in promotion etc. so the IRFU would need to have control over the image rights and not for instance have a situation where a star player like Sean O'Brien isn't doing ads for vodafone.

CatFromHue

I'm not sure if there's enough info available to really gauge who earns what or why!

I know players on central contracts may seem to earn a good wage but equally players who aren't would earn their provincial wage plus their Ireland appearance wage (well as far as I know they do). Also I'm not sure how much input the Ireland head coach has to individual contracts as I've no doubt Kidney would not have wanted to lose Sexton for example.

bilston

Didn't Trimble sign a central back in October or something and then not feature at all in the Autumn games?

If a the best option available is on an Academy contract I'd like to think he would still get picked albeit he won't be on an academy contract for too much longer.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

If Henry was as highly rated as you think he is, he would be on a central contract.

Heaslip, SOB & POM are all on central contracts so its highly unlikely that any of them will be dropped.

Henry signed his deal before playing under Schmidt. I've no doubt he'd be on a central deal if he signed now.

He's a bloke that will always be resented in some quarters for the threat he poses to the selection of others.

umop.episdn

Buer wrote: »

Henry signed his deal before playing under Schmidt. I've no doubt he'd be on a central deal if he signed now.

He's a bloke that will always be resented in some quarters for the threat he poses to the selection of others.

Don't think he's much of a threat to Heaslip

danthefan

Whatever combination Schmidt goes with it's great that we have options anyway. Like many of the 6N selections, it's going to be marginal and I don't really care who gets in. Will be interesting to see what happens for the AIs since POM will be out until October or so I believe, won't have a lot of rugby under his belt and Schmidt seems to put a lot of weight on who is performing in training camps.

Christy42

umop.episdn wrote: »

Don't think he's much of a threat to Heaslip

Yeah but I'm pretty hes the reason the IRFU didn't give Sexton the deal he wanted:P.

RoundBox11

The more I've been thinking about it, the more I'm thinking that Darren Cave won't be in the World Cup squad.

If we were to bring D'arcy, Marshall and Payne it'd make more sense to bring Henshaw as our reserve fullback, also covering centre. Unless cave is going to be first choice I just don't think he'll offer enough to be selected. Obviously it'll come down to the November internationals and the 6N but I'd imagine Payne will be featuring at 13 for at least half of those matches.

I know it's pointless trying to predict a squad for the world cup but just for the craic...

15. Kearney 14. Bowe 13. Payne 12. D'Arcy 11. Fitzgerald 10. Sexton 9. Murray

1. Healy 2. Best 3. Ross 4. Toner 5. POC 6. Ruddock 7. O'Brien 8. Heaslip


Presuming it'll be 32 man squads (extra props) that'd possibly leave:

Props: McGrath, J Cronin, Moore, Fitzpatrick/White
Hookers: Strauss, Cronin
Locks: Henderson, Tuohy
Back row: O'Mahony, Henry

SH: Marmion, Reddan
OH: Jackson, Presuming they bring a third this one is wide open imo
Centres: Marshall
Back 3: Trimble, Earls, Henshaw

That's actually 33

jimbo94s

RoundBox11 wrote: »

The more I've been thinking about it, the more I'm thinking that Darren Cave won't be in the World Cup squad.

If we were to bring D'arcy, Marshall and Payne it'd make more sense to bring Henshaw as our reserve fullback, also covering centre. Unless cave is going to be first choice I just don't think he'll offer enough to be selected. Obviously it'll come down to the November internationals and the 6N but I'd imagine Payne will be featuring at 13 for at least half of those matches.

I know it's pointless trying to predict a squad for the world cup but just for the craic...

15. Kearney 14. Bowe 13. Payne 12. D'Arcy 11. Fitzgerald 10. Sexton 9. Murray

1. Healy 2. Best 3. Ross 4. Toner 5. POC 6. Ruddock 7. O'Brien 8. Heaslip


Presuming it'll be 32 man squads (extra props) that'd possibly leave:

Props: McGrath, J Cronin, Moore, Fitzpatrick/White
Hookers: Strauss, Cronin
Locks: Henderson, Tuohy
Back row: O'Mahony, Henry

SH: Marmion, Reddan
OH: Jackson, Presuming they bring a third this one is wide open imo
Centres: Marshall
Back 3: Trimble, Earls, Henshaw

That's actually 33

Ruddock ahead of POM? Not a chance. He hasn't proved himself in a big game up against a tough opposition back row whereas POM was possibly ire's player of the 6N bar Trimble.

RoundBox11

jimbo94s wrote: »

Ruddock ahead of POM? Not a chance. He hasn't proved himself in a big game up against a tough opposition back row whereas POM was possibly ire's player of the 6N bar Trimble.

Ruddock will have plenty of opportunities to get some big game experience between now and then. I think one of POMs biggest flaws is that he can sometimes go missing in big games e.g England, France, Australia in the past few months. I like POM but id prefer to have a more physical 6 to start off and bring on POM after 50 mins when the opposition is tiring.

I definitely dont think POM is undroppable tho and I think we should try out our options.

former legend

jimbo94s wrote: »

Ruddock ahead of POM? Not a chance. He hasn't proved himself in a big game up against a tough opposition back row whereas POM was possibly ire's player of the 6N bar Trimble.

You're right that he hasn't proved himself in a big game but you're overstating POM's Six Nations. He was excellent in the first two games but much quieter after that.

It will take a lot for Ruddock to dislodge him but it's possible.

case885

former legend wrote: »

You're right that he hasn't proved himself in a big game but you're overstating POM's Six Nations. He was excellent in the first two games but much quieter after that.

It will take a lot for Ruddock to dislodge him but it's possible.

He would be climbing a pretty steep mountain in order to overtake POM at 6.

Tox56

jimbo94s wrote: »

Ruddock ahead of POM? Not a chance. He hasn't proved himself in a big game up against a tough opposition back row whereas POM was possibly ire's player of the 6N bar Trimble.

Wat.

You could literally pick out any big Leinster game this season and chances are he was one of Leinster's best players. He wasnt just good this season he was extremely consistent, even in games where the team around him didnt play well

Burcsd94

jimbo94s wrote: »

Ruddock ahead of POM? Not a chance. He hasn't proved himself in a big game up against a tough opposition back row whereas POM was possibly ire's player of the 6N bar Trimble.

sure POM is the best backrow in the NH