Your irish 22 for the 2015 rugby world cup

Fireball07

I'm a big fan of Ruddock, don't think he's quite as good as POM, but they are completely different players. Ruddock is more of a traditional 6, strong in defence, superb at ruck-time; just very strong and physical, good carrier in the tight.

POM is more of a link player, a kind of 6/7, super support player, good pace, great hands... a lot lighter and athletic, also a great lineout option and excellent at the breakdown. Wouldn't make as many tackles and wouldn't smash a ruck the same way, but is possibly a more natural skilful player.

Both natural leaders, both have captained their province and will both captain their country some day (POM already did).

danthefan

former legend wrote: »

You're right that he hasn't proved himself in a big game but you're overstating POM's Six Nations. He was excellent in the first two games but much quieter after that.

It will take a lot for Ruddock to dislodge him but it's possible.

Kinda the elephant in the room. He didn't have nearly the influence in the England and France game as he did in the first two, because they secured their own ruck ball and he doesn't really have the power to be making bit carries or smashing people in defence. His tackle count was also fairly low. His lineout work was properly excellent throughout though.

Buer

Fireball07 wrote: »

Both natural leaders, both have captained their province and will both captain their country some day (POM already did).

I wouldn't be surprised if we see them both accommodated in the team in the next couple of years, to be honest, with guys like Henry and Heaslip both going into their thirties.

As you say, extremely different player but both class acts. POM is certainly further down the line than Ruddock at this point. Ruddock's progress and exposure in the past 18 months has been massive, though. I expect both of them to go to next year's RWC.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Ruddock, don't think he's quite as good as POM, but they are completely different players. Ruddock is more of a traditional 6, strong in defence, superb at ruck-time; just very strong and physical, good carrier in the tight.

POM is more of a link player, a kind of 6/7, super support player, good pace, great hands... a lot lighter and athletic, also a great lineout option and excellent at the breakdown. Wouldn't make as many tackles and wouldn't smash a ruck the same way, but is possibly a more natural skilful player.

Both natural leaders, both have captained their province and will both captain their country some day (POM already did).

In a back-row with Heaslip and SOB I think Ruddock might be a better fit though. The other 2 are good link players, good at the breakdown and very athletic in the loose. Ruddock would be closer to a Locky type, who Joe was very fond of beside SOB and Heaslip. POMs best qualities are already present in SOB and Heaslip. Starting Ruddock with POM on the bench might make most sense.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

Kinda the elephant in the room. He didn't have nearly the influence in the England and France game as he did in the first two, because they secured their own ruck ball and he doesn't really have the power to be making bit carries or smashing people in defence. His tackle count was also fairly low. His lineout work was properly excellent throughout though.

He got injured in the England game, rested for the Italian game because of it and brought back in for the French game despite Ruddock being available.

Seems to have been carrying an injury since the England game this season.

jm08

Buer wrote: »

Henry signed his deal before playing under Schmidt. I've no doubt he'd be on a central deal if he signed now.

He's a bloke that will always be resented in some quarters for the threat he poses to the selection of others.

SOB is first choice 7, so Henry is unlikely to get a central contract. He will pose no threat to SOB's selection.

Swiwi.

The way I see it, Heaslip and SOB are the 2 locked-in starters in the Irish backrow. Initially at least, SOB ended up as 7 because Ireland had options at 6 and basically none at 7. If SOB stays at 7, I think Ruddock may well overtake POM, although they both have different strengths, which might allow JS a horses for courses approach. I wouldn't mind seeing at least 1 outing with SOB at 6 and CH at 7, just to see if that works.

In terms of the back three, I think you would want to be very careful before including Fitzgerald in the mix. The RWC has very strict rules around injury in terms of replacements, it's not really a scenario where you can afford a "just one more week needed" situation.

If everyone is at 100% form & fitness, I think Bowe & Zebo are Ireland's best wingers, but there are plenty of other good options too, and I guess if Trimble keeps up his 6N form it would be very hard to leave him out. RK vs JP is potentially an intriguing battle in the coming months.

Who goes as the 3rd lock will also be a battle, it would be useful to have Ryan fit & firing again I must say, offers something different to O'Connell & Toner.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

SOB is first choice 7, so Henry is unlikely to get a central contract. He will pose no threat to SOB's selection.

I know he won't. SOB has played some of his best rugby at 6, however.

Buer

Swiwi. wrote: »

Who goes as the 3rd lock will also be a battle, it would be useful to have Ryan fit & firing again I must say, offers something different to O'Connell & Toner.

That's going to be one of the most interesting selections of all. I'd love if Ryan could get back to where he was but, the fact of the matter is, he hasn't been playing to that level since 2012. With the way Foley is going, he has enough of a battle on his hands to get back into his Munster jersey.

Foley is an interesting one. He plays with great aggression and is a very good player technically too. He could definitely be a bolter for the jersey.

Then we've McCarthy and Tuohy. Putting Henderson as cover and allowing us more flexibility is a real option too.

I think Foley could well go to the RWC at this point. Ryan needs a good few months of injury free rugby to come back into the equation. If he doesn't get that before the autumn, I think he's going to rely on injuries to others to really get back into the mix.

molloyjh

Swiwi. wrote: »

The way I see it, Heaslip and SOB are the 2 locked-in starters in the Irish backrow. Initially at least, SOB ended up as 7 because Ireland had options at 6 and basically none at 7. If SOB stays at 7, I think Ruddock may well overtake POM, although they both have different strengths, which might allow JS a horses for courses approach. I wouldn't mind seeing at least 1 outing with SOB at 6 and CH at 7, just to see if that works.

In terms of the back three, I think you would want to be very careful before including Fitzgerald in the mix. The RWC has very strict rules around injury in terms of replacements, it's not really a scenario where you can afford a "just one more week needed" situation.

If everyone is at 100% form & fitness, I think Bowe & Zebo are Ireland's best wingers, but there are plenty of other good options too, and I guess if Trimble keeps up his 6N form it would be very hard to leave him out. RK vs JP is potentially an intriguing battle in the coming months.

Who goes as the 3rd lock will also be a battle, it would be useful to have Ryan fit & firing again I must say, offers something different to O'Connell & Toner.

Ryan will have very serious competition from Henderson, who I think will make the 23 for RWC tbh. The guy is a powerhouse with great carrying ability and good hands. To me there's logic in the following:

4. POC
5. Toner
6. Ruddock
7. SOB
8. Heaslip

19. Henderson
20. POM

Bringing in Henderson and POM against tiring opposition could have huge impact. Henderson and Ruddock share a number of skills, in particular that physicality at ruck time and powerful carrying. What you lose in the back row by taking off Ruddock, Henderson can take on. And that frees up POM to get more involved further out the line where he is at his best.

salmocab

Henry is a proper 7 and I think he might balance the back row better with SOB at 6.

Podge_irl

SOB most definitely is a proper 7. I honestly don't know what else people think he needs to do to prove that.

Neil3030

Depth in 2nd row?? WHaaaaat??!

Hagz

SOB is more a 7 than Henry is that's for sure. But in saying that, I wouldn't be surprised to see SOB eventually shift back to 6. He enjoys it more and we have some top drawer 7's coming through.

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Ryan will have very serious competition from Henderson, who I think will make the 23 for RWC tbh. The guy is a powerhouse with great carrying ability and good hands. To me there's logic in the following:

4. POC
5. Toner
6. Ruddock
7. SOB
8. Heaslip

19. Henderson
20. POM

Bringing in Henderson and POM against tiring opposition could have huge impact. Henderson and Ruddock share a number of skills, in particular that physicality at ruck time and powerful carrying. What you lose in the back row by taking off Ruddock, Henderson can take on. And that frees up POM to get more involved further out the line where he is at his best.

Not saying you are wrong as I don't have a crystal ball but Ruddock still has a bit to prove before POM is dropped for him. Henderson may be difficult to leave out of the XV come the WC too.

MattD

In a 30/31 man squad there isn't going to be more than 8 2nd and Back rows, I can't really see past a selection of:

Toner, POC, Henderson
POM, Ruddock, SOB, Henry, Heaslip

For me, that has to be the group sent, and there's very little room for someone to break in. Obviously assuming all are fit of course. It's harsh, but there's not a huge amount of sense in bringing anyone else on top of that.

CIARAN_BOYLE

MattD wrote: »

In a 30/31 man squad there isn't going to be more than 8 2nd and Back rows, I can't really see past a selection of:

Toner, POC, Henderson
POM, Ruddock, SOB, Henry, Heaslip

For me, that has to be the group sent, and there's very little room for someone to break in. Obviously assuming all are fit of course. It's harsh, but there's not a huge amount of sense in bringing anyone else on top of that.

We had 9 between the second and backrow last time not sure it will change

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

Not saying you are wrong as I don't have a crystal ball but Ruddock still has a bit to prove before POM is dropped for him. Henderson may be difficult to leave out of the XV come the WC too.

Yeah Ruddock still has work to do but if he can build on last season I think he'll get there. I'm not so much looking at dropping POM either, just balancing up skill sets really. Joe seemed to like the grafter, hard yards type blindside at Leinster when SOB was at openside. When you look at POMs skills you're talking about an athletic guy, good in open field and at the breakdown. If we have SOB and Heaslip in the squad we already have that. Ruddock fits that grafter mould more than POM. But POMs skills could be incredibly useful off the bench against tiring opposition and Henderson is the perfect guy to pick up that grafter role for the last 20.

Of course you could probably start Henderson and POM and bring on whichever second row is on the bench along with Ruddock for the final quarter, but I just feel to get the impact going forward POM coming on against tired legs will cause opposition sides more problems than Ruddock.

The Lost Sheep

MattD wrote: »

In a 30/31 man squad there isn't going to be more than 8 2nd and Back rows, I can't really see past a selection of:

Toner, POC, Henderson
POM, Ruddock, SOB, Henry, Heaslip

For me, that has to be the group sent, and there's very little room for someone to break in. Obviously assuming all are fit of course. It's harsh, but there's not a huge amount of sense in bringing anyone else on top of that.

There will be at least 9 back 5 forwards in squad and at least 4 2nd rows so there will be another 2nd row as in Ryan/Tuohy/Foley etc

former legend

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There will be at least 9 back 5 forwards in squad and at least 4 2nd rows so there will be another 2nd row as in Ryan/Tuohy/Foley etc

Yeah you need 7 for a match day squad so I'd say nine is the likely number.

At the moment it's:
Locked in: POC, Toner, POM, SOB, Heaslip
Very likely: Henderson, Henry, Ruddock
Possibles: Tuohy, Ryan, Murphy
Outside bets: Diack, Copeland, McCarthy, Foley

A lot is going to depend on who is playing regularly for their province which a lot of these guys won't be doing.

RoundBox11

At the moment it certainly seems POC and Toner are our starting locks, with Henderson being the main challenger.

Unless Ryan can regain some top form and put together a full season I can't see him passing out any of those three. Foley, McCarthy and to a lesser extent Tuohy are all behind those three as well imo.

We're certainly in a better position than previous years in the engine room. A lot's going to come down to how things go down in Munster with POC, Foley and Ryan. Then you have DOC too who could possibly block Ryan's comeback somewhat. Exciting times!

bilston

Interestingly on the basis of the squads that's most are coming up with, many of these players are going to be around in 2019.

2019 players

Props - Healy, McGrath, Moore, Cronin
Hookers - Strauss, Cronin
Locks - Henderson, Toner, Tuohy, Foley
Back rows - Ruddock, O'Brien, Murphy, O'Mahony

Scrum Halves - Murray, Marmion
Out Halves - Jackson, Madigan, Hanrahan
Centres - Olding, Marshall, Cave, Henshaw
Back Three - Fitzgerald, Earls, Zebo, Gilroy, McFadden, D.Kearney

Obviously a few of those guys will be at the end of their careers but it shows we have the guts of a good squad for the next five years and that's before you throw in the youngsters which will inevitably appear in this period.

connachta

bilston wrote: »

Interestingly on the basis of the squads that's most are coming up with, many of these players are going to be around in 2019.

2019 players

Props - Healy, McGrath, Moore, Cronin
Hookers - Strauss, Cronin
Locks - Henderson, Toner, Tuohy, Foley
Back rows - Ruddock, O'Brien, Murphy, O'Mahony

Scrum Halves - Murray, Marmion
Out Halves - Jackson, Madigan, Hanrahan
Centres - Olding, Marshall, Cave, Henshaw
Back Three - Fitzgerald, Earls, Zebo, Gilroy, McFadden, D.Kearney

Obviously a few of those guys will be at the end of their careers but it shows we have the guts of a good squad for the next five years and that's before you throw in the youngsters which will inevitably appear in this period.

in 2019 Heenan and Bundee Aki will be IQ, and are already great prospects, they should be in the squad

RoundBox11

connachta wrote: »

in 2019 Heenan and Bundee Aki will be IQ, and are already great prospects, they should be in the squad

Regardless of how good Bundee Aki turns out to be, I dont ever want to see him involved with the Irish team.

The Lost Sheep

connachta wrote: »

in 2019 Heenan and Bundee Aki will be IQ, and are already great prospects, they should be in the squad

Don't think so. Don't think either will be in and around the squad

connachta

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Regardless of how good Bundee Aki turns out to be, I dont ever want to see him involved with the Irish team.

Why? you don't agree with the residency rules?

umop.episdn

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Don't think so. Don't think either will be in and around the squad

Aki is a great talent & plays in a position that we aren't exactly overflowing with options at the moment. If that is still the situation in 3 years, then yes, he is a definite option imo

connachta

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Don't think so. Don't think either will be in and around the squad

Why? Pessimistic or sour about N-Z born talents? Or about Connacht

The Lost Sheep

connachta wrote: »

Why? Pessimistic or sour about N-Z born talents? Or about Connacht

Don't think either are better than what we have elsewhere. Nothing to do with them being NZ born or playing with Connacht

CatFromHue

3 years is a long time in sport.

Look at the prop situation (or even the outhalf one) now compared to 3 years ago for example.

Hagz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Don't think so. Don't think either will be in and around the squad

I half agree with you. Don't think Heenan will get close by the time 2019 rolls around, but Aki might be in with a chance given our options at 12.

connachta

Hagz wrote: »

I half agree with you. Don't think Heenan will get close by the time 2019 rolls around, but Aki might be in with a chance given our options at 12.

I know he's still unknonw, but what he did was really impressive, even more considering he's a 20 year old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-XmczFxDpY
5 years till 2019 is enough on this trend

Hagz

I think he's been quality for such a young lad and he'll be a good player, but I just think Gilsenan and Leavy and better prospects. Then of course O'Brien will still be in the picture.

Buer

connachta wrote: »

Why? you don't agree with the residency rules?

I agree with the concept when it's used in the right manner such as someone like Strauss who came here and worked hard, reaching a level beyond what many would have expected from him.

Aki is a different kettle of fish. His comments upon signing were disappointing. He spoke openly that he's here to make the Irish team, a side he has no connection with, before he even set foot in the country. Then saying he can always go back and play for Samoa if he has to just underlined his thought process. He should have kept his mouth shut.

Buer

Hagz wrote: »

I think he's been quality for such a young lad and he'll be a good player, but I just think Gilsenan and Leavy and better prospects. Then of course O'Brien will still be in the picture.

I think he really needs to put on some more bulk. He is seriously talented but I can't see a 98kg forward cutting it at international level. He would simply be man handled by the likes of England and South Africa.

I think Gilsenan has been hindered by the same problem although he certainly doesn't lack for aggression.

RoundBox11

connachta wrote: »

Why? you don't agree with the residency rules?

Not as such, more I dont like Akis approach to it. Im pretty much of the same opinion as Buer. Guys like Strauss and Diack who come to play for the club and show that they give a damn really are ok with me. I think Aki openly admitting that he wants to play for Ireland just to be playing international rugby is just wrong imo.

Especially with guys like Olding, Marshall, McSharry etc

thomond2006

The comments are somewhat understandable, what rugby player wouldn't want to play international rugby? However at the same time they are completely ignorant of the emotional attachment that supporters have to their national team. Playing for a national team should be to represent your country and the honour/pride that goes along with it. The "I can always go back to play for Samoa" quote just compounded it.

I'd rather a player who sees Ireland as a second rate team and an easy ride didn't play for Ireland.

b.gud

Agree with the comments re Aki, that being said if he is the best option at 12 at that time it would be stupid not to play him. We don't make the rules and we don't have to like them but we def should use them to out advantage when we can.

Re Heenan I'd say he's further along in development than Gilseanan and from all that I've heard has a great work ethic, it's hard to know what will happen in 5 years but right now it's be hard to see him not being involved.

connachta

b.gud wrote: »

Agree with the comments re Aki, that being said if he is the best option at 12 at that time it would be stupid not to play him. We don't make the rules and we don't have to like them but we def should use them to out advantage when we can.

Re Heenan I'd say he's further along in development than Gilseanan and from all that I've heard has a great work ethic, it's hard to know what will happen in 5 years but right now it's be hard to see him not being involved.

Thanks exactly what I think for both players (don't like Aki comment about Samoa but he is 24 and wants a good international career, he will maybe become a little more calm and busy about day to day work till 2019. Ireland and Connacht need centres)

bilston

Hagz wrote: »

I half agree with you. Don't think Heenan will get close by the time 2019 rolls around, but Aki might be in with a chance given our options at 12.

We have loads of options at 12!

CIARAN_BOYLE

For heenan to play international rugby he needs to put on a stone to a stone and a half in weight, can he? I don't know. He seems to be undersized at the moment, then again he missed a preseason joining connacht so maybe a good preseason will have him put on a few kilos.

CIARAN_BOYLE

bilston wrote: »

We have loads of options at 12!

Marshall and olding could be retired by then!

Hagz

bilston wrote: »

We have loads of options at 12!

I don't really rate any of them other than Olding. Although McCloskey and Farrell look pretty decent. Hopefully Farrell gets a lot of game-time at Grenoble.

b.gud

Does anyone have a link to the interview where Aki said he'd go back to Samoa if it didn't work out?

Buer

b.gud wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to the interview where Aki said he'd go back to Samoa if it didn't work out?

http://www.thescore.ie/bundee-aki-connacht-ireland-samoa-1415280-Apr2014/

I’m eligible for Samoa. That was another big decision for myself – to see if I would play for them or not. If I play three years over there [in Ireland] and it doesn’t go well, I can always go back to Samoa.

former legend

b.gud wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to the interview where Aki said he'd go back to Samoa if it didn't work out?

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9938620/Bundee-Aki-targets-Irish-jersey-as-he-quits-NZ
Down at the end. Not exactly inspiring stuff.

chippers

Who's knows what the situation will be like in 3 years time. Peter Robb could be a serious option

former legend

Anyone trying to make long term predictions for unproven players should read the first post on this thread.

chippers

former legend wrote: »

Anyone trying to make long term predictions for unproven players should read the first post on this thread.

Should people stop talking about Olding so

former legend

chippers wrote: »

Should people stop talking about Olding so

My point was about making predictions for 2019, not sure that was clear.

Personally I'm very much on the fence re Olding. He's a class act but his top level games have been limited to brief cameos. I think it would be a surprise if he makes the 2015 RWC to be honest.