Your irish 22 for the 2015 rugby world cup

Swiwi.

Kinger83 wrote: »

Plus Sean O'Brien is starting and subbing.. i know he's good but not that good surely...

former legend wrote: »

Anyone trying to make long term predictions for unproven players should read the first post on this thread.

:pac:

connachta

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

For heenan to play international rugby he needs to put on a stone to a stone and a half in weight, can he? I don't know. He seems to be undersized at the moment, then again he missed a preseason joining connacht so maybe a good preseason will have him put on a few kilos.

Weight of few of the best flankers 2012 (blindside or openside, Heenan played both)

101kg Bonnaire,Julien
95 kg Caballero,Yannick
96 kg Armitage,Steffon
102kg Fernandez Lobbe,Juan
101kg Dusautoir,Thierry
96 kg Nyanga,Yannick
101kg Tipuric,Justin


So no problem at all to play 6 or 7 around 100 kg, despite Irish tradition of heaviness.

Buer

I would doubt the accuracy of some of those stats (not a hope Armitage or Caballero are that light and when has Caballero been a top player?) but, aside from that, most have demonstrated physical power well beyond their weights which Heenan has not. Dusautoir and Nyanga are freaks that Heenan isn't in the same breath as, for example.

The closest thing to him is Tipuric who is also a wonderfully talented footballer. However, Tipuric has been found wanting on a number of occasions physically where he has been chewed up and spat out of rucks. It's not a coincidence that he's mostly used as a bench option for Wales when the game opens up.

And Heenan hasn't shown himself to be the footballer that Tipuric is yet either.

padser

thomond2006 wrote: »

The comments are somewhat understandable, what rugby player wouldn't want to play international rugby? However at the same time they are completely ignorant of the emotional attachment that supporters have to their national team. Playing for a national team should be to represent your country and the honour/pride that goes along with it. The "I can always go back to play for Samoa" quote just compounded it.

I'd rather a player who sees Ireland as a second rate team and an easy ride didn't play for Ireland.

To be fair, we are essentially criticising a player for being a little top honest in his interview.

He is going to have to devote three years of his life to Irish rugby to be eligible same as everyone else. Does everyone really think Strauss came over with no ambitions other than playing for Leinster and then after 3 years suddenly went "oh this is nice surprise, suddenly I'm Irish qualified...."? The difference is Struass has the good sense not to do an interview saying stuff like that before he joined

:-) I blame connachts press team really....

letowski

My pick would be atm:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. O'Connell
6. O'Mahony
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

9. Murray
10. Sexton

11. Trimble
12. Darcy
13. Henshaw
14. Bowe

15. Kearney

I'm not sure about Luke Marshall. His form has being worryingly poor this year he even lost his starting place vs Leinster in the Rabo semi. Thought he was ok in Argentina but again had concussion problems which has to be a huge concern now. I think there could be a chance Hanrahan could push for this spot, as he is likely to play a bit there with Munster, with Downey gone and Bleyendaal not arriving until late November.

The wingers should be picked on form and really, that's impossible to call with any one of Trimble, Bowe, Fitzgearld, Earls and Zebo in with a shout here. I can't see D. Kearney or McFadden getting a start.

I think Ross will start over Moore, Moore has a bit to go yet as we saw in Paris, but he is a good prospect. Henry is unlucky to lose out in my pack, but if O'Brien's on form he plays, end of. I'll be interested to see who will bench for Best next year, with Cronin omitted from the Argentina tour and then playing a stormer against Glasgow.

chippers

letowski wrote: »

My pick would be atm:

I'll be interested to see who will bench for Best next year, with Cronin omitted from the Argentina tour and then playing a stormer against Glasgow.

It will be interesting to see if Strauss can get back to where he was. He was looking a little light weight after his layoff. A big pre season and he should be ready to challenge again.

Cronin is a fantastic bench option though, not too sure if the other two lads offer the same impact.

connachta

Buer wrote: »

I would doubt the accuracy of some of those stats (not a hope Armitage or Caballero are that light and when has Caballero been a top player?) but, aside from that, most have demonstrated physical power well beyond their weights which Heenan has not. Dusautoir and Nyanga are freaks that Heenan isn't in the same breath as, for example.

The closest thing to him is Tipuric who is also a wonderfully talented footballer. However, Tipuric has been found wanting on a number of occasions physically where he has been chewed up and spat out of rucks. It's not a coincidence that he's mostly used as a bench option for Wales when the game opens up.

And Heenan hasn't shown himself to be the footballer that Tipuric is yet either.

http://www.rctoulon.com/fr/rct/joueur/armitage/

Official page
yes he is, and yes Heenan is only 20 and can improve about phisicality widely

The Pheasant2

letowski wrote: »

My pick would be atm:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. O'Connell
6. O'Mahony
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

9. Murray
10. Sexton

11. Trimble
12. Darcy
13. Henshaw
14. Bowe

15. Kearney

I'm not sure about Luke Marshall. His form has being worryingly poor this year he even lost his starting place vs Leinster in the Rabo semi. Thought he was ok in Argentina but again had concussion problems which has to be a huge concern now. I think there could be a chance Hanrahan could push for this spot, as he is likely to play a bit there with Munster, with Downey gone and Bleyendaal not arriving until late November.

The wingers should be picked on form and really, that's impossible to call with any one of Trimble, Bowe, Fitzgearld, Earls and Zebo in with a shout here. I can't see D. Kearney or McFadden getting a start.

I think Ross will start over Moore, Moore has a bit to go yet as we saw in Paris, but he is a good prospect. Henry is unlucky to lose out in my pack, but if O'Brien's on form he plays, end of. I'll be interested to see who will bench for Best next year, with Cronin omitted from the Argentina tour and then playing a stormer against Glasgow.

What are your subs?

Tox56

connachta wrote: »

http://www.rctoulon.com/fr/rct/joueur/armitage/

Official page
yes he is, and yes Heenan is only 20 and can improve about phisicality widely

He's 22 but yes thats the idea, that he can improve his physicality from what it is now. In his current state I cannot see him competing physically with the heavyweight international packs. If he can put on a few kgs without losing his mobility that would be ideal. As it is he's actually lighter than both the two Irish U20 opensides this year

former legend

letowski wrote: »

I'll be interested to see who will bench for Best next year, with Cronin omitted from the Argentina tour and then playing a stormer against Glasgow.

Cronin was rested from the tour rather than omitted, he's very much the #16 at the moment. His only real rival is Strauss who lost a fair amount of ground this season and will miss the opening part of next season.
It will be interesting to see who gets the Munster jersey this year, whoever does might make a late charge for the RWC.

RoundBox11

connachta wrote: »

http://www.rctoulon.com/fr/rct/joueur/armitage/

Official page
yes he is, and yes Heenan is only 20 and can improve about phisicality widely

if you look more closely at your link youll also notice that Armitage it 5' 9" whereas Heenan is 6' 2".

Being taller means Heenan will be less powerful, added to his higher centre of gravity which makes him easier to push around at ruck time. Armitage is very heavy for his height.

connachta

RoundBox11 wrote: »

if you look more closely at your link youll also notice that Armitage it 5' 9" whereas Heenan is 6' 2".

Being taller means Heenan will be less powerful, added to his higher centre of gravity which makes him easier to push around at ruck time. Armitage is very heavy for his height.

Dussauoir has exactly the same height and weight. And nobody would dare to contest he's (at least was) one of the best in Europe. I can't see why Heenan can't develop like him, except with authoritative argument like " not cut from the same cloth."

CatFromHue

padser wrote: »

To be fair, we are essentially criticising a player for being a little top honest in his interview.

He is going to have to devote three years of his life to Irish rugby to be eligible same as everyone else. Does everyone really think Strauss came over with no ambitions other than playing for Leinster and then after 3 years suddenly went "oh this is nice surprise, suddenly I'm Irish qualified...."? The difference is Struass has the good sense not to do an interview saying stuff like that before he joined

:-) I blame connachts press team really....

Strauss wasn't really on the Boks radar in SA before he left as far as I know (I think he was even playing some games in the back row for his club) whereas Aki would be on the Blacks radar at the moment and in a position where there'll be an opening on the team in a couple of seasons with Nonu and Smith both 32 at the moment.

letowski

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

What are your subs?

I think similar enough to the 6 Nations, only with Henry dropping to the bench instead of Murphy. Having said that he wouldn't be the best impact sub and is possibility better off starting. I think Earls or Fitzgearld are better options than McFadden (if they're fit!!). Ryan and Marmion might make in time but not now.

letowski

former legend wrote: »

Cronin was rested from the tour rather than omitted, he's very much the #16 at the moment. His only real rival is Strauss who lost a fair amount of ground this season and will miss the opening part of next season.
It will be interesting to see who gets the Munster jersey this year, whoever does might make a late charge for the RWC.

I think its going to be hard for someone to displace Varley's Munster #2 shirt, unless he goes through one of those complete dips in form and throwing that he sometimes experiences. Both Casey and Sherry have shown some good form with Munster, but both lack that bit of power and aggression that Varley brings, particularly at breakdown. I might come to Casey in time. I just think Varley would be Foley's type of Hooker next season.

Not sure either three will be international standard though on 2015.

Buer

connachta wrote: »

Dussauoir has exactly the same height and weight. And nobody would dare to contest he's (at least was) one of the best in Europe. I can't see why Heenan can't develop like him, except with authoritative argument like " not cut from the same cloth."

Yes, develop which is what people are saying he needs to do. He cannot be equated to Dusautoir in any way currently in terms of his quality as a player.

Dusautoir is a physical freak that goes against his size. He's an anomaly. It's highly unlikely that Heenan is ever going to become a similar player. TD is the only starting back row player from the top 7 countries that isn't over 100kg.

If Heenan was eligible tomorrow, he wouldn't be in the Irish squad. Hopefully he develops his power levels to be an option in the next couple of years.

Buer

RoundBox11 wrote: »

if you look more closely at your link youll also notice that Armitage it 5' 9" whereas Heenan is 6' 2".

Being taller means Heenan will be less powerful, added to his higher centre of gravity which makes him easier to push around at ruck time. Armitage is very heavy for his height.

I still wouldn't buy Armitage's weight, even at that height. Most sites list him at over 100kg and anything up to 104kg which would be far more likely. A 96kg guy playing No. 8 at the top level is not realistic at all.

blackdog1

Buer wrote: »

I still wouldn't buy Armitage's weight, even at that height. Most sites list him at over 100kg and anything up to 104kg which would be far more likely. A 96kg guy playing No. 8 at the top level is not realistic at all.

Hes about 104-106 kg. 96 kg is 15 stone. Not a hope in hell hes this weight.

connachta

blackdog1 wrote: »

Hes about 104-106 kg. 96 kg is 15 stone. Not a hope in hell hes this weight.

RCT official website is lying. if you both say so,....

Hagz

London Irish stats say he was 103kg when he was with them….

take from that what you wish.

CatFromHue

connachta wrote: »

RCT official website is lying. if you both say so,....

Not sure if lying is the right phrase but Donnacha Ryan mentioned that when he went to Northampton to talk about joining that the first thing they did was get him to strip down and then they weighed him!

The Lost Sheep

CatFromHue wrote: »

Not sure if lying is the right phrase but Donnacha Ryan mentioned that when he went to Northampton to talk about joining that the first thing they did was get him to strip down and then they weighed him!

He had issues with weight going up ranks.. possibly came from not having played until 17/18 and was hurling until then.
Also when Northampton checked Munster website it was saying DRs weight was something like 90kg..

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/man-of-the-match-donnacha-ryan-glad-he-didnt-quit-munster-for-northampton-26832059.html

Buer

Which is pretty much the issue. Club websites are regularly unreliable. I think Nagle was down as 99kg for a long time too at 6'6" after he had clearly bulked up!

Armitage is easily well over 100kg. He's built like a hooker.

RoundBox11

BOD and Steffon Armitage are the same height. BOD is 95kg. Armitage is clearly much bigger. Take from that what you will.

umop.episdn

RoundBox11 wrote: »

BOD and Steffon Armitage are the same height. BOD is 95kg. Armitage is clearly much bigger. Take from that what you will.

Nothing?

RoundBox11

umop.episdn wrote: »

Nothing?

Well increased size is quite often due to increased weight. If you have two men the of the same height and one is much larger than the other he's probably heavier...

former legend

RoundBox11 wrote: »

BOD and Steffon Armitage are the same height. BOD is 95kg. Armitage is clearly much bigger. Take from that what you will.

So what you're saying is... We should pick Steffon Armitage at 13 for the World Cup.

RoundBox11

former legend wrote: »

So what you're saying is... We should pick Steffon Armitage at 13 for the World Cup.

Exactly!

Stan27

Healy
Best
Ross/ Moore
Toner
Paul
Pom
Sob
Jh
Murray
Sexton
Marchel
Henshaw/ Fitzgerald
Bowe
Zebo
Kearney

The Lost Sheep

Stan27 wrote: »

Healy
Best
Ross/ Moore
Toner
Paul
Pom
Sob
Jh
Murray
Sexton
Marchel
Henshaw/ Fitzgerald
Bowe
Zebo
Kearney

11,12,13 wont happen. Who is 11?
Don't see Zebo being there but hard to say with so many wings. Henshaw wont be 12

Stan27

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

11,12,13 wont happen. Who is 11?
Don't see Zebo being there but hard to say with so many wings. Henshaw wont be 12

Sorry I had put in no numbers.
11 zebo
12 marchel
13 henshaw / Fitzgerald
14 bowe
15 kearney

The Lost Sheep

Stan27 wrote: »

Sorry I had put in no numbers.
11 zebo
12 marchel
13 henshaw / Fitzgerald
14 bowe
15 kearney

Assume you mean Marshall at 12? Wouldn't be sure on Henshaw or Fitzgerald at 13. Do you think Payne will be close to side?

Stan27

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Assume you mean Marshall at 12? Wouldn't be sure on Henshaw or Fitzgerald at 13. Do you think Payne will be close to side?

Ha I was thinking I spelt it a bit wrong .
I'll be honest I don't know that much about Payne but everyone seems to think he is a great player. He will be very close anyway.
Re the other 2 I would actually perfer henshaw to stay full back. And maybe concentrate on 13 after the rwc.
With Fitzgerald he is too good to leave out, but his injurys are a concern. If he stays injury free and plays his potential a definite starter.
What's your opinion of zebo?

The Pheasant2

I think we'll see:

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Moore
4 Toner
5 POC (C)
6 POM
7 SOB
8 Heaslip

9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald (if fit, Earls otherwise)
12 D'Arcy (Wildcard: Madigan)
13 Payne
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

16 Cronin (Strauss if he can recover in time)
17 McGrath
18 Ross
19 Henderson
20 Ruddock/Henry (Horses for courses)
21 Marmion/McGrath
22 Jackson
23 Trimble

former legend

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/rugby-world-cup-2015-predicting-ireland-s-starting-xv-1.1931217

The Irish Times journalists have had a crack off this. This "D'Arcy at 13" idea is picking up steam but I don't see it happening, otherwise no outlandish predictions apart from Gavin Cummiskey predicting McGrath will be at tighthead...

ozzyo

If Darcy is on the starting 15 in the world cup I am not watching it. Cant defend at international level and brings nothing to the attack any more. playing him at 13 would be a massive leap in the wrong direction for Ireland.

Sanjuro

Can somebody do me a favour and fill in what blanks I have here- Ireland have 12 games before the RWC. Three November tests, five Six Nations games. I know there are warm-up games before the RWC, but four games? Am I missing something, or is there a summer tour next year despite a world cup year?

Riskymove

Sanjuro wrote: »

Can somebody do me a favour and fill in what blanks I have here- Ireland have 12 games before the RWC. Three November tests, five Six Nations games. I know there are warm-up games before the RWC, but four games? Am I missing something, or is there a summer tour next year despite a world cup year?

4 warm up games

Riskymove

former legend wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/rugby-world-cup-2015-predicting-ireland-s-starting-xv-1.1931217

The Irish Times journalists have had a crack off this. This "D'Arcy at 13" idea is picking up steam but I don't see it happening, otherwise no outlandish predictions apart from Gavin Cummiskey predicting McGrath will be at tighthead...

Thornley basically just picks the team from now

in particular I'd question that Ross will still be starting 3 but maybe he'll surprise me

I suppose I am most dissapointed at the lack of "experts" going for any new player or surprise bar perhaps Olding

and unless Gilroy has a great year I couldn't see him displacing the other wingers

.ak

ozzyo wrote: »

If Darcy is on the starting 15 in the world cup I am not watching it. Cant defend at international level and brings nothing to the attack any more. playing him at 13 would be a massive leap in the wrong direction for Ireland.

Can't defend at international level? Despite being one of our best defenders in the AIs and 6N?

Brings nothing to attack despite him marshalling most of our backline moves during the AIs and 6N?

The form that Darce is in he's head n shoulders above anyone else at 12 right now. If you don't watch the RWC because the form player is selected then you're missing the point of the RWC.

former legend

ozzyo wrote: »

If Darcy is on the starting 15 in the world cup I am not watching it. Cant defend at international level and brings nothing to the attack any more. playing him at 13 would be a massive leap in the wrong direction for Ireland.

That won't be much of a change for you.

molloyjh

ozzyo wrote: »

If Darcy is on the starting 15 in the world cup I am not watching it. Cant defend at international level and brings nothing to the attack any more. playing him at 13 would be a massive leap in the wrong direction for Ireland.

For the record he missed a sum total of 3 tackles in 5 games during the 6 Nations. I don't recall a single incident where he was badly caught out. This notion that he can't defend at international level is just completely and utterly wrong. And it's a massive disservice to a player who has given and continues to give so much to the national side.

Also, if he added nothing to our attacking game how is it we were the top try scorers in the 6 Nations? You can't really do that with a passenger in midfield.

its_phil

molloyjh wrote: »

For the record he missed a sum total of 3 tackles in 5 games during the 6 Nations. I don't recall a single incident where he was badly caught out. This notion that he can't defend at international level is just completely and utterly wrong. And it's a massive disservice to a player who has given and continues to give so much to the national side.

Also, if he added nothing to our attacking game how is it we were the top try scorers in the 6 Nations? You can't really do that with a passenger in midfield.

Big D'Arcy fan but I think he did get caught out a couple times in defence but no instances come to mind bar a tackle attempt at Basteraud but who hasn't missed a tackle on him. That's a tackling issue too and not an error in defence.

Had a fine tournament overall though, I'd like to at least see him tried at 13 but do we have time or are we going to treat the 6N as a tournament to try things.

Larbre34

Just looking back at the original post, its amazing how the fortunes of those mentioned have changed, including of course one tragic incident, and that guys who are pretty much nailed on to be in England next year were not even on the radar in 2011.

15. Felix Jones - Possible
14. Andrew Conway - Only if 5 other guys get broken
13. Nevin Spence - RIP
12. Fergus McFadden - Yes
11. Keith Earls - Yes if fit
10. Jonathan Sexton - Yes
9. Luke McGrath - Not had the senior run yet but still Possible
8. Jamie Heaslip (c) 0 - Yes
7. Dominic Ryan - Unlikely but a good season leaves him and TOD fighting
6. Sean O'Brien - Yes
5. Dan Tuohy - In the mix
4. Ian Nagle - Off the radar
3. Jamie Hagan - Off the radar
2. Richard Strauss - Probable
1. Cian Healy - Yes

16. Sean Cronin - Yes
17. Jack O'Connell - Too far down the order
18. Stewart Maguire - No
19. Dave O'Callaghan - Unlikely
20. Rhys Ruddock - must keep fit and performing to the level of POM and Hendo
21. Conor Murray - yes
22. JJ Hanrahan - Not without some disastrous injuries
23. Eoin Griffin - No

The Pheasant2

Larbre34 wrote: »

15. Felix Jones - Possible

Ah now

I think "highly improbable" would suit more

thebaz

ozzyo wrote: »

If Darcy is on the starting 15 in the world cup I am not watching it. Cant defend at international level and brings nothing to the attack

along with O'Driscolll - D'Arcy has been the best Irish midfielder defender EVER - are ya having a laugh

bilston

Moving D'Arcy isn't as crazy as it first seems. It works especially if you have someone like Olding or Madigan at 12 as they are both excellent attacking players. D'Arcy, despite what one or two have tried to say, would give us defensive solidity and experience in the midfield alongside the attacking prowess of someone like Olding. I wouldn't mind seeing that given a whirl in November.

Buer

Jones started on of the tests against Argentina this summer. He'll definitely be in the extended squad, I'd have thought. Specialist full backs aren't growing on trees.

If RK was to be injured, I could see him travelling with Payne probably playing 15 and Jones possibly featuring against the weaker teams.

cp

Riskymove wrote: »

Thornley basically just picks the team from now

in particular I'd question that Ross will still be starting 3 but maybe he'll surprise me

I suppose I am most dissapointed at the lack of "experts" going for any new player or surprise bar perhaps Olding

and unless Gilroy has a great year I couldn't see him displacing the other wingers

Well Thornley had Furlong on the bench instead of Moore. So at this juncture that would count as a surprise. Personally I think, assuming he gets game-time, he has every chance of making the squad.

But barring a John Hayes'esque decrease in power, it think it would be a big shock if Ross wasn't starting.

former legend

I'd be very surprised to see Jones travel tbh, even if either Kearney or Payne was injured - if both of them were injured, then maybe.

I think Furlong will need an injury to either Ross or Moore to have any hope; it would be some progression if he did make it.

Assuming everyone fit, I'd go with:

Kearney
Bowe Payne D'Arcy Trimble
Sexton Murray
Healy Best Ross
O'Connell Toner
Ruddock O'Brien Heaslip

Reps: Strauss, McGrath, Moore, Henderson, O'Mahony, Reddan, Madigan, Earls

Wider squad: Kilcoyne, S Cronin, Tuohy, Henry, Marmion, Jackson, Fitzgerald - this is a big assumption on fitness

The only bolter I'd really see coming from very far back would be Olding, depending on how he goes this season and fitness-depending. It means guys like Ryan, Marshall, McFadden, Zebo and Dave Kearney missing out; there's going to be some very harsh calls to make.