Your irish 22 for the 2015 rugby world cup

Cpt_Blackbeard

ormond lad wrote: »

Its a very big IF for Nagle/Foley and for the mostpart im talking about unrealised potential wrt the two of them but if they do i think 1 if not both will surpass Toner
i think JJ may be involved but being honest cant see Kilcoyne being near an irish squad then. The fact JJ is a 10/12 helps him as we dont exactly have many 12s. Going back to Kilcoyne there is as you say a considerable number of props ahead of him

I think it will be much easier to discuss the future of any Munster players in 6-8 months when we get a proper insight into the new coaching team. Munster do have too many potentially good locks though, and at least one of them will end up at another province imo. The necessity for Thorn and his inability to surpass a fast waning Cullen is a black mark against Toner though.

It should be interesting to watch Kilcoyne's progress this year. He is almost completely an unknown quantity at present, but it looks like he is currently ahead of Horan in the pre-season games. Securing a bench spot behind Wian, is his main goal at present, but I wouldn't rule him out of contention for the WC. All going well and as predicted, he'll be Munster's LH the season leading into the WC.

I'm apprehensive of JJ being developed as a 10/12. It could lead him to being a Paddy Wallace type player: A very good 12 who is used incorrectly at international level, but is included for his "ability" to play 10. On the other hand, he could follow a similar development to Carter: He learns his game at 12 before migrating inside to 10. I'd much prefer that he turned out a 10 who covers 12, not a 12 who covers 10.

RoundBox11

Yeah i do agree JJ is a great prospect for both Munster and Ireland and a really great asset to have!
The sooner Munster get their finger out of their arse and get him in ahead of ROG the better. Even a 10-12 combo of Keatley and Hanrahan would be interesting.

I find it's hard not to think too far forward with a thread like this. Guys like JJ, Henderson, Furlong and Cooney although great prospects, more than likely won't be ready for world cup rugby by 2015. By 2017, hopefully these guys will have established themselves in the squad.
On saying that tho, it's pretty depressing to think that irish lads have to be 24/25 to establish themselves in the squad. Sooner or later i hope we take a leap of faith on a 19/20 year old like we did with the likes of BOD.

totallegend

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I think it will be much easier to discuss the future of any Munster players in 6-8 months when we get a proper insight into the new coaching team. Munster do have too many potentially good locks though, and at least one of them will end up at another province imo. The necessity for Thorn and his inability to surpass a fast waning Cullen is a black mark against Toner though.

I'm sorry but that is not on. Cullen may be fading but he's still one of the best team leaders around and there is no team in Europe, Munster included, that wouldn't have jumped at the chance to sign Thorn.

Nagle's inability to surpass Billy Holland is a black mark against him and frankly, I'm sick of hearing about him. One game against the Australia reserves TWO YEARS AGO and he's the reincarnation of Willie John.

danthefan

totallegend wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is not on. Cullen may be fading but he's still one of the best team leaders around and there is no team in Europe, Munster included, that wouldn't have jumped at the chance to sign Thorn.

Nagle's inability to surpass Billy Holland is a black mark against him and frankly, I'm sick of hearing about him. One game against the Australia reserves TWO YEARS AGO and he's the reincarnation of Willie John.

Ryan's inability to pass MOD or DOC until this season, etc.

Cullen is the Leinster captain ffs. Some posters can't help themselves.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is not on. Cullen may be fading but he's still one of the best team leaders around and there is no team in Europe, Munster included, that wouldn't have jumped at the chance to sign Thorn.

Nagle's inability to surpass Billy Holland is a black mark against him and frankly, I'm sick of hearing about him. One game against the Australia reserves TWO YEARS AGO and he's the reincarnation of Willie John.

wow, is he getting that much hype, I wouldn't have thought so especially after the season he had last year but there you go.

Cpt_Blackbeard

phog wrote: »

wow, is he getting that much hype, I wouldn't have thought so especially after the season he had last year but there you go.

I think that Devin totallegend has his colours firmed nailed to the mast regarding his feelings towards Nagle...

totallegend wrote: »

Nagle is in no way a contender for the 2015 World Cup so he has no business being discussed on this thread.

CIARAN_BOYLE

If the 23 man squads becomes permanent for internationals will it remain a 30 man squad for the next RWC or become 31-32 to allow extra prop or two to travel.

Cpt_Blackbeard

totallegend wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is not on. Cullen may be fading but he's still one of the best team leaders around and there is no team in Europe, Munster included, that wouldn't have jumped at the chance to sign Thorn.

Nagle's inability to surpass Billy Holland is a black mark against him and frankly, I'm sick of hearing about him. One game against the Australia reserves TWO YEARS AGO and he's the reincarnation of Willie John.

I'm not denying his leadership, but his legs are on the way out. Borthwick was being selected for England for his captaincy despite being off the pace required. MOD has just retired despite being a great leader and still being a good player.

Captaincy shouldn't guarantee you a jersey and were Toner as good as you lead on, he would have been starting beside Brad. As is turned out, he earned a vote of no-confidence from the management and it was decided that Thorn was a necessary addition. Similarly, the signing of Laulala for Munster could indicate a similar vote of no-confidence from management in Earls/Barnes etc.

It is obviously a mark against Nagle. He hasn't developed or has the opportunities to develop as expected. Injuries have played a big part as has the competition for places in Munster, but I see no reason for your animosity and contempt towards a young player learning their profession.

totallegend

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I think that Devin totallegend has his colours firmed nailed to the mast regarding his feelings towards Nagle...

You'd be hard pushed to find a single post in which I hype up Toner for international selection. I'm just baffled by the love-in for Nagle, that's all.

jm08

Thomond78 Munsterfans - 9 Aug:

Just talking to Ian Nagle on Paul Street. He's put on a LOT of bulk: over 5kg and aiming for another 3. He's visibly and noticeably bigger than he was in May. Seeing a surgeon tomorrow, optimistic and in good form and reckons it could be a blessing in disguise to allow him to get the bulk on and a serious pre-season in.

http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/30452-Latest-Injury-Updates/page17?highlight=nagle

totallegend

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'm not denying his leadership, but his legs are on the way out. Borthwick was being selected for England for his captaincy despite being off the pace required. MOD has just retired despite being a great leader and still being a good player.

Captaincy shouldn't guarantee you a jersey and were Toner as good as you lead on, he would have been starting beside Brad. As is turned out, he earned a vote of no-confidence from the management and it was decided that Thorn was a necessary addition. Similarly, the signing of Laulala for Munster could indicate a similar vote of no-confidence from management in Earls/Barnes etc.

It is obviously a mark against Nagle. He hasn't developed or has the opportunities to develop as expected. Injuries have played a big part as has the competition for places in Munster, but I see no reason for your animosity and contempt towards a young player learning their profession.

Hang on, I have no animosity towards Nagle at all; don't cloud the issue. I don't know him from Adam and that's my point. He's on a full Munster contract but is being talked about like he's an Academy prospect, he's going on 24 and has ten pro starts. Objectively speaking, does that sound promising?

I just don't get why people on here rate him so highly when the last Munster coaches obviously didn't.

On some level, I suppose I'm just worried that Loose-Cannon Kidney will promote him to the national team on the basis of a run of four games, as per his track record.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

You'd be hard pushed to find a single post in which I hype up Toner for international selection. I'm just baffled by the love-in for Nagle, that's all.

Don't worry wrt Nagle you try keep us firmly rooted to the ground

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is not on. Cullen may be fading but he's still one of the best team leaders around and there is no team in Europe, Munster included, that wouldn't have jumped at the chance to sign Thorn.

Nagle's inability to surpass Billy Holland is a black mark against him and frankly, I'm sick of hearing about him. One game against the Australia reserves TWO YEARS AGO and he's the reincarnation of Willie John.

Leinster signed Thorn because they needed him. Fullstop. Munster could have done with a backrow or two (bearing in mind that Munster had lost Wallace & Leamy to injury).

Every team needs their Billy Hollands and Mick O'Driscolls.

totallegend

phog wrote: »

Don't worry wrt Nagle you try keep us firmly rooted to the ground

I'm giving it a good lash alright

And I'll gladly eat my words if he comes good, no fear of that. No more than Toner, I'm not convinced Tuohy will make it as a really top-level second-row, so we need younger talent to come through in the next 3-5 years.

danthefan

totallegend wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'm not denying his leadership, but his legs are on the way out. Borthwick was being selected for England for his captaincy despite being off the pace required. MOD has just retired despite being a great leader and still being a good player.

Captaincy shouldn't guarantee you a jersey and were Toner as good as you lead on, he would have been starting beside Brad. As is turned out, he earned a vote of no-confidence from the management and it was decided that Thorn was a necessary addition. Similarly, the signing of Laulala for Munster could indicate a similar vote of no-confidence from management in Earls/Barnes etc.

It is obviously a mark against Nagle. He hasn't developed or has the opportunities to develop as expected. Injuries have played a big part as has the competition for places in Munster, but I see no reason for your animosity and contempt towards a young player learning their profession.

Hang on, I have no animosity towards Nagle at all; don't cloud the issue. I don't know him from Adam and that's my point. He's on a full Munster contract but is being talked about like he's an Academy prospect, he's going on 24 and has ten pro starts. Objectively speaking, does that sound promising?

I just don't get why people on here rate him so highly when the last Munster coaches obviously didn't.

On some level, I suppose I'm just worried that Loose-Cannon Kidney will promote him to the national team on the basis of a run of four games, as per his track record.

He's nearly 24!? Ah jaysus.

bilston

profitius wrote: »

How many changes do you think will be made to the Irish 23 by 2015? Lets say the first choice team is the following.

15 kearney
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 D'Arcy
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Murray

8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 Ferris
5 POC
4 Ryan
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

16 Cronin
17 Fitzpatrick
18 Court
19 Tuohy
20 POM
21 Reddan
22 ROG
23 McFadden

I'd guess there'll be at least 8 changes (possibly as high as 11) to the 23 mostly with young players coming through. Some current regulars slipping back to the subs bench.

Out of that starting XV I'd say only BOD and D'Arcy will have gone, POC is borderline. the only certainties though are Kearney, Sexton, Healy, Ferris (if he's fit), O'Brien and Heaslip.

The rest will have real competition for their places.

jm08

I can't see any backrower over the age of 28 making it due to the fact that they will all have a lot of mileage on the clock, particularly at club level and they all seem now to be picking up injuries a lot more than they used to. I don't see Tommy Bowe being it either - he will be 32 which is old for a winger and he will also have a lot of milage on the clock as he was played a lot by the Ospreys. I'd also have my doubts about Rory Best (not many hookers stay playing at the top after the age of 30ish - injuries start kicking in - Woody, Frankie Sheahan & Fla all had to retire early).

I expect to have a whole new crop of players there like the Conways, Zebos, Gilroys, L. Marshall, Henderson who will all be just coming into their prime. Next 6Ns/Lions will be the telling one as to which of those will emerge which is when Rob Kearney, Luke Fitz, Bowe and a few others emerged last time.

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

I can't see any backrower over the age of 28 making it due to the fact that they will all have a lot of mileage on the clock, particularly at club level and they all seem now to be picking up injuries a lot more than they used to. I don't see Tommy Bowe being it either - he will be 32 which is old for a winger and he will also have a lot of milage on the clock as he was played a lot by the Ospreys. I'd also have my doubts about Rory Best (not many hookers stay playing at the top after the age of 30ish - injuries start kicking in - Woody, Frankie Sheahan & Fla all had to retire early).

I don't think any of our back rowers are over the age of 28?

Didn't Sheahen and Flannery have specific injuries that forced them to retire early? I've always thought the opposite when it comes to hookers, for some reason I have this image of hookers playing on for longer than most other positions!

jm08

bilston wrote: »

I don't think any of our back rowers are over the age of 28?

They will all be over 28 by the next world cup. They are in their prime now (25-28).

Didn't Sheahen and Flannery have specific injuries that forced them to retire early? I've always thought the opposite when it comes to hookers, for some reason I have this image of hookers playing on for longer than most other positions!

They all had specific injuries, but hookers seem to be very prone to career ending injury (Jackman & John Fogerty retired early as well). In fact, Shane Byrne seems to be the only international hooker we have had who retired on his own terms in the last couple of years.

profitius

Some of those players do have mileage on the clock. POC, BOD, D'Arcy for example. I'd say any player playing a high level of rugby for 10 years or more would be starting to slow down and by 2015 a large chunk of the current Ireland squad will have plenty of mileage done.

You also have to factor in who is coming through to replace those players and there is a lot of players coming through.

justsomebloke

Truthfully I would be surprised if POC and Ferris make it to the 2015 WC

él statutorio

profitius wrote: »

Some of those players do have mileage on the clock. POC, BOD, D'Arcy for example. I'd say any player playing a high level of rugby for 10 years or more would be starting to slow down and by 2015 a large chunk of the current Ireland squad will have plenty of mileage done.

You also have to factor in who is coming through to replace those players and there is a lot of players coming through.

POC has surprisingly low mileage when you consider how long he has been on the scene. I don't think he's had an injury free season in years. Pre Lions he had back problems and post Lions he's had leg stuff. I'm open to correction but has Paulie completed a season in the last 4 or 5 years without having some sort of length lay off?

totallegend

profitius wrote: »

You also have to factor in who is coming through to replace those players and there is a lot of players coming through.

Exactly. For that reason, I would doubt O'Connell's presence in 2015; we have half-decent replacements coming through now who, hopefully, will get better with more international experience.

It's also why I wouldn't rule out Mike Ross being there; while he'll be 34 or 35 and he's never been the best physical specimen, we're relying on a replacement coming through between now and then when we've only managed to produce one decent tight-head in the last ten years...

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

They will all be over 28 by the next world cup. They are in their prime now (25-28).

They probably will be slightly past their best come 2015 but a lot depends on whether the players coming through are better than them.

Are Ruddock, Ryan and O'Mahony going to better than those guys in 3 years time? Ruddock hasn't kicked on yet but is still young so I wouldn't rule him out either. Ryan had a bad year with injury so can't be judged yet but certainly has huge potential and O'Mahony is furthest down the road but the evidence so far suggests he is a step down from the current incumbents but in fairness has yet to find his best position in the back row. There will be others like Henderson, Gilsenan and Conan who will come into contention but they all have a lot to prove still but we may get to see them a bit this coming season.

So basically my point is that Ferris (30), SOB (28) and Heaslip (31) maybe getting on a bit come 2015 but if they're still the best available then they'll play.

shuffol

Surprised nobodys mentioned Mick Kearney as having a good shot of making it, he's in a better position than most I would've thought, already a regular in the Connacht squad at 21, I can see him remaining there for another few seasons and then being lured back to Leinster due to their lack of young 2nd rows.

jm08

él statutorio wrote: »

POC has surprisingly low mileage when you consider how long he has been on the scene. I don't think he's had an injury free season in years. Pre Lions he had back problems and post Lions he's had leg stuff. I'm open to correction but has Paulie completed a season in the last 4 or 5 years without having some sort of length lay off?

POC (age 32) 137 Munster caps
Heislip (age 28) 140 Leinster caps.

Sean O'Brien (age 25) 65 Leinster caps.
Denis Leamy (age 30) 145 Munster caps.
Anthony Foley (retired at 34) 202 Munster caps.
David Wallace (retired at 35) 203 Munster caps.

Heislip in particular has a lot of mileage on the clock and SOB is heading there.

yimrsg

jm08 wrote: »

They will all be over 28 by the next world cup. They are in their prime now (25-28).

They all had specific injuries, but hookers seem to be very prone to career ending injury (Jackman & John Fogerty retired early as well). In fact, Shane Byrne seems to be the only international hooker we have had who retired on his own terms in the last couple of years.

It's ridiculous to discount a player due to their age, Ledesma played in 4 world cups, David Wallace was going to NZ before his injury, Samo plays like he's a youngster fresh on the scene; the simple fact is the majority of countries don't have a conveyor belt of players like NZ and South Africa so many sides have key players that are well into their 30s.

Would you consider McCaw, Harinordoquy, Bonnaire, Dusasitoir, Samo or Kaino as past their best, simply because they're all over 28? They mightn't be as physical but they're certainly not out of the depth yet. Even Guys like Servat and Shane Williams who retired last year showed in their final matches that they were still more than capable of performing at a high level and just how important they were for their team. Bowe was never considered a speedster but he's a fantastic footballer with an eye for the whitewash so it's possible that he'll be in contention at 32.

It's also possible that some players reach their peak later than others whether through coming into rugby later of having too many players ahead of them eg. Donnacha Ryan. With 23 man squads brought in, it'll be likely that more props (who are long in the tooth by their nature) staying around even longer. Mike Ross could well be on the bench come 2015 and play out the final 20-30 minutes.

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

POC (age 32) 137 Munster caps
Heislip (age 28) 140 Leinster caps.

Sean O'Brien (age 25) 65 Leinster caps.
Denis Leamy (age 30) 145 Munster caps.
Anthony Foley (retired at 34) 202 Munster caps.
David Wallace (retired at 35) 203 Munster caps.

Heislip in particular has a lot of mileage on the clock and SOB is heading there.

Just to be clear on this, you're not suggesting that SOB and Heaslip will be past it by 2015, are you?

And O'Connell would have a lot more Munster caps but for a string of pretty bad injuries; I'm not sure that's going to help his longevity.

jm08

yimrsg wrote: »

It's ridiculous to discount a player due to their age, Ledesma played in 4 world cups, David Wallace was going to NZ before his injury, Samo plays like he's a youngster fresh on the scene; the simple fact is the majority of countries don't have a conveyor belt of players like NZ and South Africa so many sides have key players that are well into their 30s.

Would you consider McCaw, Harinordoquy, Bonnaire, Dusasitoir, Samo or Kaino as past their best, simply because they're all over 28? They mightn't be as physical but they're certainly not out of the depth yet. Even Guys like Servat and Shane Williams who retired last year showed in their final matches that they were still more than capable of performing at a high level and just how important they were for their team. Bowe was never considered a speedster but he's a fantastic footballer with an eye for the whitewash so it's possible that he'll be in contention at 32.

It's also possible that some players reach their peak later than others whether through coming into rugby later of having too many players ahead of them eg. Donnacha Ryan. With 23 man squads brought in, it'll be likely that more props (who are long in the tooth by their nature) staying around even longer. Mike Ross could well be on the bench come 2015 and play out the final 20-30 minutes.

I'm not ruling them out on age grounds - I'm ruling them out on the grounds that they will all have played an awful lot of rugby by then and will be far more injury prone and as they get older, they won't recover as quickly from injury.

Ross will more than likely be still around as he has relatively small mileage on the clock and hasn't suffered too many injuries.

I'd consider Bowe to be closer in style to Shane Horgan than Shane Williams, but injury got him in the end as well although he was playing really well at the end.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Just to be clear on this, you're not suggesting that SOB and Heaslip will be past it by 2015, are you?

And O'Connell would have a lot more Munster caps but for a string of pretty bad injuries; I'm not sure that's going to help his longevity.

No, I'm not suggesting they are past it, just that they might have had one or two injuries too many. SOB has had hip surgery already.

Heislip has played a lot of games when you consider that he is 6/7 years younger than David Wallace who has only played 202 games.

val_jester

jm08 wrote: »

No, I'm not suggesting they are past it, just that they might have had one or two injuries too many. SOB has had hip surgery already.

Heislip has played a lot of games when you consider that he is 6/7 years younger than David Wallace who has only played 202 games.

You also have to factor in the increase in the amount of games there are in a season nowadays, plus when comparing Heaslip with Wallace you have to factor in that Wallace spent the best part of two/three years of his career injured, and then struggling to come back from the injury.

TheKeenMachine

jm08 wrote: »

No, I'm not suggesting they are past it, just that they might have had one or two injuries too many. SOB has had hip surgery already.

Heislip has played a lot of games when you consider that he is 6/7 years younger than David Wallace who has only played 202 games.

I see your point, but in fairness to the IRFU, the player management scheme should help the players in this regard. Sure SOB only played 4 regular season Rabo games last year.

yimrsg

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not ruling them out on age grounds - I'm ruling them out on the grounds that they will all have played an awful lot of rugby by then and will be far more injury prone and as they get older, they won't recover as quickly from injury.

Ross will more than likely be still around as he has relatively small mileage on the clock and hasn't suffered too many injuries.

I'd consider Bowe to be closer in style to Shane Horgan than Shane Williams, but injury got him in the end as well although he was playing really well at the end.

I can't see your logic in claiming players getting more injury prone as they're older, if anything having an unblemished career with plenty of games shows their resilience to the stress of the modern game and would seem to go hand in hand with a long career. A guy like Heaslip seems almost freakish in his ability to play 80 minute games, back to back, week after week and not succumb to injury. You'd have to look at guys like Wannenburg played 99 consecutive games for the Bulls or Masoe who plays huge numbers of games in the T14 as yardsticks to guage Heaslip's future than Leamy or Wallace who were injury prone throughout their careers. If anything, Heaslip's got a major advantage over P3 and Masoe as the player welfare scheme will manage his appearances.

I just feel that each player's circumstance is unique and that a catch all term of them "being too old" or "having too much mileage" isn't applicable to all when there are notable exceptions to those rules.

irishbucsfan

There are plenty of Hookers who have played for a very long time. Ibanez was 35 for example. And Rory Best has a very good track record with injuries as well as being protected by a better Player Welfare scheme than maybe any other Test hooker in history. I could see him making it, if he is still good enough. Strauss may be the better option by then or possibly even Cronin.

bilston

One player not mentioned is Jared Payne. If he replicates his form in NZ for Ulster over the next two years he'll be a contender, he was apparently very close to getting into the NZ squad last summer. I'm no more comfortable with this as I am with Strauss playing for Ireland though and personally I wouldn't have project players but that's another debate.

danthefan

Other than ROG it's hard to think of a player who's had less injuries than Heaslip.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

One player not mentioned is Jared Payne. If he replicates his form in NZ for Ulster over the next two years he'll be a contender, he was apparently very close to getting into the NZ squad last summer. I'm no more comfortable with this as I am with Strauss playing for Ireland though and personally I wouldn't have project players but that's another debate.

I think he could challenge Earls for the 13 jersey, not so sure about Kearney at 15. It'll be interesting to see where he's used this season, I'd imagine FB

jm08

yimrsg wrote: »

I can't see your logic in claiming players getting more injury prone as they're older, if anything having an unblemished career with plenty of games shows their resilience to the stress of the modern game and would seem to go hand in hand with a long career. A guy like Heaslip seems almost freakish in his ability to play 80 minute games, back to back, week after week and not succumb to injury. You'd have to look at guys like Wannenburg played 99 consecutive games for the Bulls or Masoe who plays huge numbers of games in the T14 as yardsticks to guage Heaslip's future than Leamy or Wallace who were injury prone throughout their careers. If anything, Heaslip's got a major advantage over P3 and Masoe as the player welfare scheme will manage his appearances.

I just feel that each player's circumstance is unique and that a catch all term of them "being too old" or "having too much mileage" isn't applicable to all when there are notable exceptions to those rules.

Neither Wannenburg or Masoe are also playing international rugby like Heaslip. I just did a tot comparing Heislip gametime with Wannenberg (by the way, most of those caps for the Bulls were from the bench). The season before he came to Ulster he had 4 Super Rugby starts. The year previous to that he had 4 starts again in Super Rugby.

Wannenberg (age 31): 145 club caps (@80 mins per cap). 12 international caps.
Heaslip (age 28): 138 club caps. 51 international caps (including 3 Lions).

(I totted the total minutes and just divided by 80 mins to simplify things).

Heislip has had a great fitness record, but the game has become increasingly attritional and that fitness record may go against him at the end of the day.

danthefan

jm08 wrote: »

Heislip has had a great fitness record, but the game has become increasingly attritional and that fitness record may go against him at the end of the day.

The mind boggles at how little sense this makes.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There are plenty of Hookers who have played for a very long time. Ibanez was 35 for example. And Rory Best has a very good track record with injuries as well as being protected by a better Player Welfare scheme than maybe any other Test hooker in history. I could see him making it, if he is still good enough. Strauss may be the better option by then or possibly even Cronin.

Ibanez had to retire because of head injuries. Flannery was flying it this time 4 years ago and would have been a guaranteed starter for the Lions (which is when all his injury troubles started).

Didn't Best miss a bit about 2 seasons ago? I seem to remember him having to come back from injury fairly quickly for some international games when Flannery was injured.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

The mind boggles at how little sense this makes.

I don't know how much sense it makes either, but you often hear coaches/players say that a break / rest in the middle of their careers due to injury might not be the worst thing.

danthefan

jm08 wrote: »

I don't know how much sense it makes either, but you often hear coaches/players say that a break / rest in the middle of their careers due to injury might not be the worst thing.

You're trying to argue that players who both suffer injuries and don't suffer injuries are unlikely to make it. It's a minor miracle anyone makes it past 30 as a professional rugby player. Complete rubbish basically.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Ibanez had to retire because of head injuries. Flannery was flying it this time 4 years ago and would have been a guaranteed starter for the Lions (which is when all his injury troubles started).

Didn't Best miss a bit about 2 seasons ago? I seem to remember him having to come back from injury fairly quickly for some international games when Flannery was injured.

Ibanez retired when he was 35. So I don't see your point there, if the same happens to Rory Best he'll still make the world cup.

Yes Flannery had to retire, but the same could happen to anyone. Johnny Sexton might have to retire for all we know. Paul O'Connell either. Impossible to predict an injury problem like that, it's a complete shot in the dark. Who would have predicted Gordon D'Arcy would have recovered to play 12 for Ireland in the world cup, for example?

Steve Thompson had to go as well, he had terrible neck trouble. Again that was gym related and Best hasn't had those issues.

Best had a shoulder injury that he had to rush back from, hence his useless lineout performances for that season. Of course that could flare up and force him to retire, but it could not. I haven't heard of it being particularly bad.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

You're trying to argue that players who both suffer injuries and don't suffer injuries are unlikely to make it. It's a minor miracle anyone makes it past 30 as a professional rugby. Complete rubbish basically.

Depending on the injury - a leg break wouldn't be as serious maybe as needing a hip or shoulder operation for a forward.

Tommy Bowe and Rob Kearney are among those who claim that the injuries / break has been good for them.

yimrsg

jm08 wrote: »

Neither Wannenburg or Masoe are also playing international rugby like Heaslip. I just did a tot comparing Heislip gametime with Wannenberg (by the way, most of those caps for the Bulls were from the bench). The season before he came to Ulster he had 4 Super Rugby starts. The year previous to that he had 4 starts again in Super Rugby.

Wannenberg (age 31): 145 club caps (@80 mins per cap). 12 international caps.
Heaslip (age 28): 138 club caps. 51 international caps (including 3 Lions).

(I totted the total minutes and just divided by 80 mins to simplify things).

Heislip has had a great fitness record, but the game has become increasingly attritional and that fitness record may go against him at the end of the day.

How do you honestly think that? Does a jewel in their arm go red once they reach a certain age and they're destined to be injured?



Wannenburg played 99 games in a row, that level of fitness/robustness call it what you will is pretty much unheard of, even if he's coming off the bench he's still fit and training with the team and hasn't succumbed to injury. It's fair to say he's not injury prone as was near enough a fixture in the bulls side and played super rugby and in the currie cup. Masoe at 33 played 31 games for Castres last year clocking in over 2400 minutes. Heaslip at 28 played 31 games for Leinster and Ireland and played around 2200 minutes whilst having to work within the constraints of the IRFU management scheme. Wannenburg and Masoe are older that Heaslip yet show little no decline or tendency to be injured. Why should Heaslip be different?

You're talking codswallop.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ibanez retired when he was 35. So I don't see your point there, if the same happens to Rory Best he'll still make the world cup.

Yes Flannery had to retire, but the same could happen to anyone. Johnny Sexton might have to retire for all we know. Paul O'Connell either. Impossible to predict an injury problem like that, it's a complete shot in the dark. Who would have predicted Gordon D'Arcy would have recovered to play 12 for Ireland in the world cup, for example?

Steve Thompson had to go as well, he had terrible neck trouble. Again that was gym related and Best hasn't had those issues.

Best had a shoulder injury that he had to rush back from, hence his useless lineout performances for that season. Of course that could flare up and force him to retire, but it could not. I haven't heard of it being particularly bad.

Irish Hookers who have had to retire due to injury: Woody, Sheahan, Jackman, Flannery, Fogarty all had to retire. Only one of 4 international hookers in the last 10 years wasn't forced to retire due to injury. Maybe Best will be lucky, but with Ulster now making the knock-outs of the Heineken Cup regulary and the starting international hooker he is going to get knocked about a bit more.

Ibanez had retired from international rugby two years previous to him being forced to retire because of a neck injury.

I'd pick out hookers & backrowers as the ones most likely to have to retire due to injury.

jm08

yimrsg wrote: »

How do you honestly think that? Does a jewel in their arm go red once they reach a certain age and they're destined to be injured?

Wannenburg played 99 games in a row, that level of fitness/robustness call it what you will is pretty much unheard of, even if he's coming off the bench he's still fit and training with the team and hasn't succumbed to injury. It's fair to say he's not injury prone as was near enough a fixture in the bulls side and played super rugby and in the currie cup. Masoe at 33 played 31 games for Castres last year clocking in over 2400 minutes. Heaslip at 28 played 31 games for Leinster and Ireland and played around 2200 minutes whilst having to work within the constraints of the IRFU management scheme. Wannenburg and Masoe are older that Heaslip yet show little no decline or tendency to be injured. Why should Heaslip be different?

You're talking codswallop.

When Wannenberg was 29 (same age as Heaslip is now), he played 958 minutes of rugby (super & currie cup).

Last season, Heaslip played 2313 minutes of rugby (International, HC & Rabo).

Heaslip now has at 29 what Wannenburg & Masoe don't even have at 31 (i.e., 51 internationals caps).

totallegend

So what we can deduce from jm08 is that

Heaslip will be past it at 31 because he's had too few injuries and too many games.
O'Brien will be past it at 28 because he's had a couple of injuries but if he doesn't get any more he'll have played too many games.
O'Connell will be grand at 35 and 11 months because he's had a few injuries.

If only there was some sort of pattern or clue to link these together. Hmmm.

smurphy29

totallegend wrote: »

So what we can deduce from jm08 is that

Heaslip will be past it at 31 because he's had too few injuries and too many games.
O'Brien will be past it at 28 because he's had a couple of injuries but if he doesn't get any more he'll have played too many games.
O'Connell will be grand at 35 and 11 months because he's had a few injuries.

If only there was some sort of pattern or clue to link these together. Hmmm.

Can we all stop indulging him now?

What could you possibly be getting at? jm08 has no record of provincial bias or logically nonsensical pre-conceived notions whatsoever.

justsomebloke

Attack the post not the poster lads