Problem with Rescue Dog.

Dinky22

Hi. I am looking for advice for a friend of mine who adopted a 10 year old terrier from the Pound. He is such an affectionate dog with humans but attacks every dog on site when she brings him for walks.Unfortunately, he is getting worse as he is frustrated on the lead having to be pulled away from other dogs or he would attack them -so he cannot socialise with other dogs.Every dog male or female is his enemy.She has paid a dog trainer for 3 sessions but he has not improved. I really feel so sorry for him as I know he comes from a wretched background.I wonder if she put a muzzle on him would he be able to eventually socialise with other dogs?.I really dislike muzzles but it is something I would appreciate advice on. Thanks so much.

ISDW

Was it a dog trainer or behaviourist that your friend consulted? I would recommend a behavourist, rather than trainer, to try and figure out what is going on.

This could be the reason he ended up in the pound, or his experiences have made him so fearful that he feels he has to attack first, ask questions after.

For the moment, a muzzle would probably be the best option on walks, keep him and any other dogs safe.

seamus

Agreed with all of the above. For everyone's sake, a muzzle would be best while out in public. You don't want to injure other dogs (or him), but you could get unlucky the day that someone sticks their hand in to break up a fight and gets bitten for their troubles.

Rescue dogs often have some form of anxiety issue. No matter what age the dog it can be worked on.

portgirl123

what part of the country are you from

Dinky22

Thank you ISDW. I understand that it was a trainer not a behavourist. Thank you also Seamus. I will tell her to get a muzzle. I expect there is just one kind of muzzle to buy in a Pet Shop. I want her to get the best. Portgirl 23. My friend lives in Cork.

Bullseye1

Were you told at the rescue centre he had problems socialising with other dogs? He sounds like a dog best suited to someone with more experience.

As the above posters have recommended seek professional advice and purchase a muzzle for his walks. Best of luck.

ISDW

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Were you told at the rescue centre he had problems socialising with other dogs? He sounds like a dog best suited to someone with more experience.

As the above posters have recommended seek professional advice and purchase a muzzle for his walks. Best of luck.

From what the OP has written, the dog came from a pound, not a rescue centre.

DBB

Dinky, make sure your friend gets a basket-style muzzle, as opposed to one of the cloth tube-shaped ones, and encourage her to spend time gradually acclimatising him to it, as if she just throws it on and heads out he'll hate the muzzle and may blame other approaching dogs for this new unpleasantness!
Older dogs with very entrenched behavioural problems like this are very difficult to change. Not impossible by any means, but just more difficult than a youngster. Older terriers, males especially, can have very rigid behaviour patterns... In old male human terms we'd describe your friend's dog as being set in his ways :-)
I would encourage your friend to forget about up close-and-personal contact with other dogs for now. She needs to work on getting him focussing on her at a distance, without making him have to greet dogs. It's possible he never has, and never will enjoy meeting other dogs, and your friend may have to adjust the way she currently walks him, and adjust her expectations to some extent, whilst simultaneously teaching himself an alternative way of behaving when other dogs are about.
Agreed with ISDW, she needs a behaviourist for this problem. What part of Cork is she in, and would she be prepared to travel a bit to see the right person? Normally, it's best for the behaviourist to see the dog in his home environment, but such "outdoor" problems may be workable-onable (!) with a couple of short sessions away from home with the owner present.
I wish her luck, and big kudos to her for taking an older dog out of the pound!

ISDW

DBB wrote: »

Dinky, make sure your friend gets a basket-style muzzle, as opposed to one of the cloth tube-shaped ones, and encourage her to spend time gradually acclimatising him to it, as if she just throws it on and heads out he'll hate the muzzle and may blame other approaching dogs for this new unpleasantness!
Older dogs with very entrenched behavioural problems like this are very difficult to change. Not impossible by any means, but just more difficult than a youngster. Older terriers, males especially, can have very rigid behaviour patterns... In old male human terms we'd describe your friend's dog as being set in his ways :-)
I would encourage your friend to forget about up close-and-personal contact with other dogs for now. She needs to work on getting him focussing on her at a distance, without making him have to greet dogs. It's possible he never has, and never will enjoy meeting other dogs, and your friend may have to adjust the way she currently walks him, and adjust her expectations to some extent, whilst simultaneously teaching himself an alternative way of behaving when other dogs are about.
Agreed with ISDW, she needs a behaviourist for this problem. What part of Cork is she in, and would she be prepared to travel a bit to see the right person? Normally, it's best for the behaviourist to see the dog in his home environment, but such "outdoor" problems may be workable-onable (!) with a couple of short sessions away from home with the owner present.
I wish her luck, and big kudos to her for taking an older dog out of the pound!

Sorry DBB, sometimes I make assumptions - such as that they would introduce the muzzle gradually.

I have a large mal here that is finally going to see the vet on Friday, she was in season, and she reacted very badly to going in the crate in the van when I collected her, so I wanted her to trust me and feel settled before we went through that again. I have been working with her and a basket muzzle, putting bits of garlic sausage in it, started off near the opening, and I now put it right down at the end, so that she puts her nose into the muzzle with no prompting or fear. She views the muzzle now as a great thing, because it means she gets nice treats.

Dinky22

Thank you DBB. I will tell my friend to get a Basket-style muzzle.She lives in Cork city but I doubt that she could pay any more for a behavourist. If you have the name of some good behavourist I might see if I could bring the dog for her and pay - depending on how much it might cost.

Graces7

Dinky22 wrote: »

Thank you DBB. I will tell my friend to get a Basket-style muzzle.She lives in Cork city but I doubt that she could pay any more for a behavourist. If you have the name of some good behavourist I might see if I could bring the dog for her and pay - depending on how much it might cost.

Shouldn't be needed. Yes to the walking when and where no other dogs; this poor wee dog is so damaged and at that age needs less exercise than if younger.

It needs to relate to the new owner, and even a small back yard is enough at this stage. Involving a third party?

Zapperzy

Graces7 wrote: »

Shouldn't be needed. Yes to the walking when and where no other dogs; this poor wee dog is so damaged and at that age needs less exercise than if younger.

It needs to relate to the new owner, and even a small back yard is enough at this stage. Involving a third party?

A small backyard with no walks is not enough for most 10 year old terriers, if the dog is still in good health and general fitness I see no need to keep the dog confined to a backyard just because of a behavioural problem. I know of a terrier in her early twenties that's still going for short strolls, albeit at her own pace stopping to sniff everything!
If the owner is willing and able to work on the problem then they should for the dog's own sake, if he lives for say 6-8 more years he's hardly going to be kept in complete isolation from other dogs for this time so it would be my opinion that it would be kinder to try and 'fix' him and at least get him to the stage where he's not feeling so stressed he feels his only option is to attack. Then again I guess I can't speak because I have a dog with a similar problem but I wouldn't consider keeping him confined to my back garden because of it! Whereas your solution to most behavioural problems seems to be just avoid it because it's too cruel to work on helping the dog overcome it!

DBB

Graces7 wrote: »

Dinky22 wrote: »

Thank you DBB. I will tell my friend to get a Basket-style muzzle.She lives in Cork city but I doubt that she could pay any more for a behavourist. If you have the name of some good behavourist I might see if I could bring the dog for her and pay - depending on how much it might cost.

Shouldn't be needed. Yes to the walking when and where no other dogs; this poor wee dog is so damaged and at that age needs less exercise than if younger.

It needs to relate to the new owner, and even a small back yard is enough at this stage. Involving a third party?

Jayney... I simply can't imagine keeping a terrier of this age confined to a small back yard... Not only are most terriers still full of va-va-voom at this age, I'd consider it mental cruelty to keep a Sharp terrier brain cooped up like this.
It's even worse that with a bit of work, this dog could learn to be far happier when he sees other dogs out on walks. He doesn't necessarily have to learn to love them, he probably can't, but I agree that avoiding the problem by cooping him up in the garden, let alone a small back yard, is not a satisfactory resolution.
Calling him "damaged" is a tad extreme... He's most likely uncomfortable around dogs and has found that shouting at them makes them go away, but to call him "damaged" is a bit ott. If that's your definition of damaged, then there are a whole pile of damaged dogs in Ireland. If he'd lived his life in a happy and loving home (and he sounds like a pleasant and well cared-for dog), would you call him "damaged"? Or is this just an easy label to put on a rescue dog? Like rescue dogs, particularly older ones, need any more negative labels! Sheesh!
If we took this approach to all behavioural problems, we may just wrap our dogs up in cotton wool and never step outside the door with them!
There are really good specialists on these behavioural problems in Ireland, I think both owner and dog would get a lot out of a session with one of these. I've pm'd op with a possible option.

Owen

In Cork, I'd recommend the 'Dog Listener'. I don't have contact details for them to hand, but 4 Paws & a Tail on the Ballinlough Road have her in there regularly buying food, etc, and would have details for her.

Dirk Gently

I had (have) the same problem. My guy was very dog aggressive out of anxiety on the lead. He still can be anxious but not the nightmare he was even just a few weeks ago. I was walking him late at night when no other dogs where about but that wasn't really helping the problem, it was just avoiding the problem.

Eventually I let him off lead in a large bounded area. Worked on re-call with him and slowly introduced him to other dogs. he was much happier off lead. The problem was he was restrained on the lead while other dogs were free roaming in the parks and it tormented him. Now that he's both on an off lead with me he's much calmer around other dogs and just plays / sniffs rather than getting aggressive.

I still have problems if not somewhere safe to let him off (where other dogs are on lead or no boundaries). If he's on the lead for the whole walk and meets other dogs he can still get anxious but it's a huge improvement on a few weeks ago when he'd go for every single dog he met. I call him back and put the lead on and take it off again every few minutes. I put the lead on when other dogs are on lead in the area and let him off again when no other dogs are about or if there's one or two friendly dogs off lead too who's owners dont mind a bit of arse sniffing going on between them. He's improving around other dogs onlead now too, but even today he did snap when on his lead on the way home so every day is a work in progress.

Practice giving him more freedom with a long lead (washing line) and have a go at introducing him to friendly dogs in a controlled manor. I was surprised how accommodating a lot of dog walkers were, obviously a lot of them have gone through the same thing themselves.

That's my guy on the left below. A few weeks ago there's no way he'd sit like that with another dog, he'd have been pulling and barking and snapping on the lead and I'd be leading him off in the other direction apologising to the other dog owner. I'm only apologising to one in 5 people now instead of every single person I met before so I suppose thats progress. :pac:

Graces7

Zapperzy wrote: »

A small backyard with no walks is not enough for most 10 year old terriers, if the dog is still in good health and general fitness I see no need to keep the dog confined to a backyard just because of a behavioural problem. I know of a terrier in her early twenties that's still going for short strolls, albeit at her own pace stopping to sniff everything!
If the owner is willing and able to work on the problem then they should for the dog's own sake, if he lives for say 6-8 more years he's hardly going to be kept in complete isolation from other dogs for this time so it would be my opinion that it would be kinder to try and 'fix' him and at least get him to the stage where he's not feeling so stressed he feels his only option is to attack. Then again I guess I can't speak because I have a dog with a similar problem but I wouldn't consider keeping him confined to my back garden because of it! Whereas your solution to most behavioural problems seems to be just avoid it because it's too cruel to work on helping the dog overcome it!

Here they go! Amazing isn't it?

We do not believe in imposing on a dog what it does not need just to fit in with us. Or because experts say so. I never said cruel; ill advised sometimes yes. But that is my expertise and my opinion.

It is not a question of "overcoming"; these are dogs not people. There is a time to rest and be a dog.

Nor do we or many have the money for what so many of you do, or the facilities to hand. Nor do we see the need.

Yes, if that is avoidance? Someone here attacked me because we do nto take the collie anywhere in the car? She does not need to do that so why do it? Why stress her to do that? I myself have a very limited life because of disablity. I stopped years ago trying to live up to what others did or said was to be done, including doctors.

Avoidance is rest also. Since we got some meds for her, she has been calmer and more settled and it is now very rare that she needs anything. The only time in the last month was when the shooting was going on for hours.

We have not always had fields for the dogs to run in... and for years we kept the dogs happy and fit and interacting in a small garden.

Damaged? Yes indeed. As collie is. No shame in that. Somany damaged dogs in Ireland.

What irks me re this forum, where there are so many lovely folk is that some refuse to agree to differ and become so very hostile and aggressive.

We are each and all different with each and all our own awareness and skill. So why attack like this every time something I or someone else says that goes against your views?

My ways work fine. I have here two happy and beautiful dogs. Who are not being stressed out by being made to do what is not needed for them. One is a very damaged collie. See her smiling face?

And always the same folk who attack! Predictable always! And in such a personal way that it makes it impossible for me to stay online here.

Such a shame!

I have enjoyed so much here thsis time and I thank all the kind and gentle ones here also.

So I leave you to attack an empty space once more.

The OP is blessed that the wee dog who has had such a hard time is so good with people.

PS I have stopped trying to report offensive posts as there is never any response when I do. But there is no way I will be anyones punchbag.. oh and by the way, I ran this thread past an expert who supported what I was saying here.The issue with experts is that they can never agree with each other!!!

Cherry Blossom

Graces7 - I suggest you refrain from conducting personal attacks and belittling other posters.

Also refrain from making any more 'press-statements' - either post on the forum or don't, you aren't that important that you need to throw yourself a leaving party every time you read a post you don't agree with. :rolleyes:

Do not post large blocks of text in bold type, that's my job.

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

Yes, if that is avoidance? Someone here attacked me because we do nto take the collie anywhere in the car? She does not need to do that so why do it? Why stress her to do that? I myself have a very limited life because of disablity. I stopped years ago trying to live up to what others did or said was to be done, including doctors.

I think it's in very bad taste to drag up old threads graces, but seeing as how you did. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056334253&page=2 please re-read your own condescending and frankly lazy sounding posts. Not everyone thinks the best thing to do is "ignore the problem" such an old fashioned view.

Because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make it an attack. You accused me of being a bad owner for attempting to help my dog with his fear of the car. Saying all this while confining your "damaged" collie to a life of little to no stimulation in the same garden day after day.

I wonder if in other hands your collie would be no longer "damaged", rather a rescue who had a bad start but is now living a full and healthy life. Believe me there are many many dogs out there with similar starts and worse than your dog who are now living a life without fear, because their new owners actually put time and effort into getting their dog back to health. Mental health is as important as physical health you know, perhaps you should keep that in mind the next time you're feeding your collie whisky on a thundery night because she has not learned how to cope with fear.

OP I'd also suggest a behaviourist, if your friend can't afford one, get the dog insured with Allianz then ask the vet for a referral. As far as I know Allianz covers behaviourists.

There's some brilliant advice on this thread I think. Main thing is to take it slowly I think and work on training the dog and building a bond.

Tranceypoo

Whispered wrote: »

OP I'd also suggest a behaviourist, if your friend can't afford one, get the dog insured with Allianz then ask the vet for a referral. As far as I know Allianz covers behaviourists.

.

Just on a different note, I did not know that Allianz covered behaviourists!! Really pleased to read that!! That's all.

Whispered

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Just on a different note, I did not know that Allianz covered behaviourists!! Really pleased to read that!! That's all.

I'm almost sure they do. I also think you can get a prepayment. But I never did myself so I don't want to say it's 100% true

Lucyx

I know a lot of people won't like this but I think your friend should put a decent muzzle on the dog and go for a walk in a big open space where other dogs walk and let him off the lead. A lot of dogs are bad meeting other dogs on the lead cos they can't control the situation but when they feel they can get away from the other dog whenever they want they are more relaxed and have a good sniff.

Once the dog meets a few other dogs like this he'll be more chilled out and enjoy the meeting. I've seen this happen a number of times. That dog wants to mix with other dogs, he's just never had the opportunity and the love of a good owner.

The owner could bring a squeaky toy too to distract the dog when other dogs are around so its just not a big deal anymore.
Or a few nice bits of food to tempt the dog.

(now please don't kill me )

DBB

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Whispered wrote: »

OP I'd also suggest a behaviourist, if your friend can't afford one, get the dog insured with Allianz then ask the vet for a referral. As far as I know Allianz covers behaviourists.

.

Just on a different note, I did not know that Allianz covered behaviourists!! Really pleased to read that!! That's all.

Indeed they do, but as Allianz quite correctly only deem a behaviourist to be one that has significant qualifications and experience in the field of behaviour, the number of behaviourists they have listed as accredited practitioners in Ireland is very small.
In short, Allianz will only pay out on behaviourists who are members of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC), who themselves have fairly rigorous terms and conditions for membership.

Whispered

DBB wrote: »

Indeed they do, but as Allianz quite correctly only deem a behaviourist to be one that has significant qualifications and experience in the field of behaviour, the number of behaviourists they have listed as accredited practitioners in Ireland is very small.
In short, Allianz will only pay out on behaviourists who are members of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC), who themselves have fairly rigorous terms and conditions for membership.

Yes if going through Allianz you must go to a "proper" behaviourist. Which is only a good thing. I know in and around Dublin vets usually refer to DTI. I'm not sure how many actual behaviourists there are in the country. But most of the time one face to face session is enough, followed by phone support. So even if she has to go to Dublin, it might be worth it.

Whispered

Lucyx wrote: »

I know a lot of people won't like this but I think your friend should put a decent muzzle on the dog and go for a walk in a big open space where other dogs walk and let him off the lead. A lot of dogs are bad meeting other dogs on the lead cos they can't control the situation but when they feel they can get away from the other dog whenever they want they are more relaxed and have a good sniff.

I totally see where you are coming from, but the problem is the terrier is likely to still display aggressive body language. Muzzled, off lead and being a little ****e he could very well be attacked and not be able to defend himself.

I think a similar idea would be to socialise him, muzzled and off lead like you said, in a more controlled area than a park or other open area.

kaki

I went through something similiar recently. Well, aam still going through it - the sir is sitting next to me snoring atm! We adopted a Jack Russell from the dog shelter here in Milan a couple of months ago at 11 years of age - 5 of which were spent with his first "family" and 6 of which were spent in the kennels. A bit different from your dog in that he has been aggressive towards people as well as dogs - he's bitten several visitors to the house as well as me once, fairly seriously.

We used to bring our guy to the dog park and let him mingle to try and socialise him. This didn't really work - it was a bit hit and miss (more miss than hit) because Rocco doesn't like being sniffed by other dogs (standard greeting in dog society, it's considered bad manners to not allow other dogs sniff you). We initially thought it was "dominance" because of his body language when approached by other dogs - he tenses, puffs his chest up, tail straight, ears stand up, very confrontational. After time we figured out that he is more of a fear biter than anything else - more than likely he has been attacked by other dogs (and people... but that's another thread). Part of me wishes we'd persevered with attempting to socialise him... but after a certain point we decided it wasn't fair to let him loose in dog parks sans muzzle after numerous attacks on other dogs (once drawing blood on a poor little bassett hound who just wanted to play...) and we didn't feel it was fair to be creating complexes and fears in other people's dogs. We still bring him to the dog park but only if it's empty/if we know the other dogs and owners, we use the muzzle for the sake of the other dogs and keep a very close eye on him. As much for the fact that Whispered mentioned - if his body language and aggressive stance remains the same he could easily be attacked and find himself with no way in which to defend himself.

Dogs do get frustrated on the leash - I think they can panic a bit about not having the room to manoevure if things go pear-shaped, as well as wanting to seem independent of their owner (that's my own theory though). On the other hand you can't predict his behaviour, and leaving him off-leash could lead to injuries or worse to other dogs as well as your own.

It could be that over time your guy will improve as well - mine certainly has, which none of us expected (when we adopted him we were constantly reminded that none of the people who'd attempted to adopt him over the previous 6 years had lasted more than a week - yet here we are almost 5 months later). I don't know if his improvement is due to the partial-failed-abandoned-attempted-socialisation, or that we brought in more rules and boundaries and Rocco is now a more compliant dog, or that as he's settled in with us and started to both trust us and accept us as authority figures he's started to forget about his past life... in any case now when we meet another dog in the street he just keeps on walking where I tell him. Rathre than before, when he used to put on the brakes in the middle of the street, puff himself up, stare the other dog down... then eventually snarl, bare teeth and charge...

If this guys' aggressive stance is based on fear, I think it's very important that he knows that you're in control and that he can trust you to make decisions for him e.g. where to walk, when to walk, which side to walk on, whether he can stop to sniff/eat food packaging off the ground... because otherwise they try to micromanage everything and (at least in my experience with my little guy) try to pre-empt any fights by being a bit stand-off-ish and aggressive towards other dogs.Have clear rules (nothing in life is free) discipline them fairly, reward with food and affection.

I was initially deadset on trying to socialise Rocco - it was actually our behaviourist who told us that any dog can be socialised - but that we needed to consider how much stress it would cause for both Rocco and us - as well as how difficult it would be given his life experiences. In the end we decided to postpone socialisation for now and have concentrated on getting him used to us, the neighborhood, meeting other dogs whilst out walking etc.

And +1 on the basket-style muzzles for this particular use - I found that the nylon ones restricted his jaw too much and didn't allow him to pant to cool down. And a good behaviorist is vital - I mistakenly thought Rocco was simply "dominant" until my behaviourist observed us and showed me that he was in fact most of his aggression was motivated by fear - and that he has a submissive personality type!

Dinky22

Thank you all so very much for your advice. I contacted a recommended Behavourist who used to come to Cork but she does not come here anymore. I then got in touch with another lady who firstly forgot our consultation and when we rescheduled I had to remind her again when I was waiting for nearly an hour!!. Anyway, she was actually good. My friend was unable to get off from work so I took the terrier for a walk with my own Rescue dog. She had good control over him and tugged at the lead in order to distract him as we approached each dog. She said he was not an aggressive dog. She said not to muzzle him. She said that he was frustrated with my friend's dog as they do not like each other. She asked me if I could adopt him as she said that the energy was good between the terrier and my dog but that would not be atall possible. The conclusion we came to was that I would take the terrier a couple of times a week and walk him with my dog and my friend would then walk him on his own. I must say that I have noticed that he is now much calmer - when I tug at the lead to distract him he obeys and carriers on with his walk. I really feel that things are going to work out and I want to thank you all again so much.

Shazanne

Am really interested in this thread. Have read it all and can identify with a great deal of what has been said.
Would it be possible Dinky22 to get the same of that behaviourist from you - either on here or by PM?
Also, does anyone know a good behaviourist in the Laois/North Tipperary area?
Many thanks:)

pokertalk

had the same problem with my rescue did not get on well with other dogs what so ever.so i got a friend that had a well socialized dog and we muzzeled up the both of them both dogs were well walked before the meet which was on neutral grounds
as you would expect there was a one sided holy war at the meet . we decided to walk both a good distance apart and slowly get closer id say we got a 5% improvement on day one but after 4or 5 goes and plenty of rewards for good behaviour the dog began to warm to the whole idea . so we changed to another dog quite a large lab x both muzzeled again.
the meet went down great bar a few snarls to begin with but after 15 mins and some treats for being a good boy he soon coped on that he was on to a good thing for being a good boy;)
anyway he is great with 99% of random dogs on the street now so op i think that if you and your mate come up with a good plan and plenty of rewards for good behaviour you might see some improvement and a much happier dog because thats what its all for at the end of the day .good luck with whatever youz do anyway

DBB

Shazanne wrote: »

Also, does anyone know a good behaviourist in the Laois/North Tipperary area?
Many thanks:)

Alison Bush of www.happierhoundsdogtraining.com in Abbeyleix is fab ;-)