€91,000 compensation in Dublin "slavery" case

Doc Ruby

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't think it was a u-turn at all. It was a statement that it is not just forinjers who exploit people, that Irish nationals can be just as guilty.

But sure what, read the rest of the post - I've listed numerous cases of employee abuse by Irish people I'm personally aware of. I dislike immediate characterisations of that nature though, this kind of abuse knows no national boundaries, and there are ample other cases similar to it again just involving foreign nationals.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As for the law protecting people - this man was exploited, he had to go and seek redress himself - the law having failed to 'protect' him.

I didn't say the law protected him adequately, but the op seems to think it would have if he was Irish.

hatrickpatrick

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Jeez, I am so sick and tired of people in this country bashing their own nation at every opportunity. Give it a f**kin' rest.

As one of the regular naysayers, I'd like to put forward the idea that we're not bashing the country itself, but how it is run.
Ireland is a beautiful and incredible place, I hardly ever even see anyone denying that. But to analogize it a little, imagine the world's most incredible 5 star holiday resort, with utterly incompetent and corrupt management who make your stay in the resort a living nightmare. Doesn't matter how great the place, the food, the weather and the locals are if the people running the hotel are rude and incompetent people who take every opportunity to overcharge your bill, misrepresent the state of the room you're going to stay in, and ban you from doing perfectly harmless things in your own room whilst allowing the thieves who regularly break in to people's rooms and steal things, to get away scott free.

Ireland, the country, rocks. Its management though? Totally ruins the experience.

Bannasidhe

Doc Ruby wrote: »

But sure what, read the rest of the post - I've listed numerous cases of employee abuse by Irish people I'm personally aware of. I dislike immediate characterisations of that nature though, this kind of abuse knows no national boundaries, and there are ample other cases similar to it again just involving foreign nationals.


I didn't say the law protected him adequately, but the op seems to think it would have if he was Irish.

I was responding to your comment re: 'Fascinating how the op managed to turn a Pakistani worker abuse problem into an Irish one though.' by saying it is an Irish problem because it happened in Ireland. It is not a Pakistani worker abuse problem because it did not happen in Pakistan. It is the abuse of a Pakistani worker by a Pakistani where the exploiter will not be prosecuted as Irish law does not have legislation to allow this to happen.

It is harder for Irish people to be exploited in this way - but I'm sure I read a thread recently where Irish people were discussing the amount of unpaid overtime they were routinely expected to carry out - in some cases up to 20 hours p.w - so people can be expected to work 50% extra hours for no pay. That is also exploitation - and perfectly legal.

Paparazzo

CashMoney wrote: »

Funny enough, the food in Poppadom was never the same since this guy (the slave) left. Poppadom was awesome for its first few years but gradually deteriorated. Himalaya is OK but are they still offering those awful dried out microwaved poppadoms?

Yeah, that's the problem with Himalaya, the poppadoms are woeful! We put them straight into the bin if we get a takeaway from there. And it's collection only.
Himalaya is a bog standard indian, but it's a good one. Chicken is always cooked perfectly. In Poppadom the meat can be tough, like it's been well overcooked.

Morlar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But they are not being checked - that is a failure of the law.

As for 'If the guest worker then discovers the job is illegitimate then they should report that immediately' this particular worker should maybe have done this on his annual day off - oh, but everything is closed on that particular day.

It seems to me you are twisting this and are intent on blaming the victims.

Not at all.

I just don't want taxpayers to get stung for it.

Doc Ruby

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I was responding to your comment re: 'Fascinating how the op managed to turn a Pakistani worker abuse problem into an Irish one though.' by saying it is an Irish problem because it happened in Ireland.

I can read your comments just fine, now do us a favour and read mine.

Doc Ruby

Morlar wrote: »

Not at all.

I just don't want taxpayers to get stung for it.

The taxpayers wouldn't get stung for it, if yerman Hussein skips the country his business would be dissolved and the assets divided up amongst the people he owes money to, including the chef. Whether or not the value of the assets would come to enough to cover all debts is a different question. This would involve bankruptcy proceedings which he will be liable for a spell in prison if he doesn't attend.

The chef might literally end up owning the joint.

Bannasidhe

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I can read your comments just fine, now do us a favour and read mine.

I did read yours and I am responding to one particular comment you made. There's no law against that either.

Chuck Stone

Does anyone else think that the Chef is a bit of a donkey for putting up with such crap? How the hell did he not understand he was being shafted?

Morlar

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Does anyone else think that the Chef is a bit of a donkey for putting up with such crap? How the hell did he not understand he was being shafted?

The only reason I can think of is he was here on a permit where he is tied to that employer for x amount of years. No job = no permit.

If he had reported it he would have then lost his permit. I don't believe he just 'was not aware' or 'did not have a single chance to report it during all those years'.

Bannasidhe

Morlar wrote: »

The only reason I can think of is he was here on a permit where he is tied to that employer for x amount of years. No job = no permit.

If he had reported it he would have then lost his permit. I don't believe he just 'was not aware' or 'did not have a single chance to report it during all those years'.

Or perhaps like many people who are being abused he did not know where to turn to for help.

Chuck Stone

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or perhaps like many people who are being abused he did not know where to turn to for help.

Reminds me of the slaves that were rescued from a Traveller site - I just have huge difficulty understanding why people like that don't try to do something even if it did mean being repatriated.

Annasopra

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Reminds me of the slaves that were rescued from a Traveller site - I just have huge difficulty understanding why people like that don't try to do something even if it did mean being repatriated.

Oh for **** sake - when you're being treated like a slave it's not bloody easy to do something to get out of the situation

Chuck Stone

mango salsa wrote: »

Oh for **** sake - when you're being treated like a slave it's not bloody easy to do something to get out of the situation

It isn't?

Annasopra

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It isn't?

Obviously not :rolleyes: - particularly when they hold your work permit and passport and control your living accommodation

Bannasidhe

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Reminds me of the slaves that were rescued from a Traveller site - I just have huge difficulty understanding why people like that don't try to do something even if it did mean being repatriated.

Do you also have a huge difficulty understanding why people stay with abusive partner?

Chuck Stone

mango salsa wrote: »

Obviously not :rolleyes: - particularly when they hold your work permit and passport and control your living accommodation

Forgive me if I have difficulty empathizing with slaves - you see I've never had that type of experience.

Icepick

So it looks look it will take the EU taking us to court to actually outlaw forced labour....

Chuck Stone

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you also have a huge difficulty understanding why people stay with abusive partner?

I can imagine why it would happen and I'd hazard a guess that there are complex psychological factors and that's before children and financial factors are considered.

You see when I try to put myself in the position of a slave the only file I can access is the 'I'm getting TF out of here as soon as possible' one.

CiaranMT

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I can imagine why it would happen and I'd hazard a guess that there are complex psychological factors and that's before children and financial factors are considered.

You see when I try to put myself in the position of a slave the only file I can access is the 'I'm getting TF out of here as soon as possible' one.

You couldn't come across as more naive/ignorant of others' situations.

Chuck Stone

CiaranMT wrote: »

You couldn't come across as more naive/ignorant of others' situations.

Yeah I'm probably coming across as ignorant and I'm usually a quite thoughtful person but the not running away thing is hard for me to grasp.

I'll do a bit of reading up on it.

I don't mean to offend and apologise if anyone has been.

I'm out.

Annasopra

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I can imagine why it would happen and I'd hazard a guess that there are complex psychological factors and that's before children and financial factors are considered.

You see when I try to put myself in the position of a slave the only file I can access is the 'I'm getting TF out of here as soon as possible' one.

sure but if people are controlling you through work permit, passport, violence, intimidation, control over your home - it's not easy

Capt'n Midnight

Just a reminder that €86,134 of this was back pay going to 10 years ago.

So for the restaurateur this is not a punishment, it's been a very cheap overdraft. That might never be paid off, what happens if the restaurant goes bust ??

It just sends a signal to other employers that "hey if you get caught, we'll only ask you to pay back what you got caught for"

Of course if the employee had dipped his hand in the till for a fraction of that amount what are the chances that he'd have a criminal record for it or perhaps time in prison ?

sensibleken

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that €86,134 of this was back pay going to 10 years ago.

So for the restaurateur this is not a punishment, it's been a very cheap overdraft. That might never be paid off, what happens if the restaurant goes bust ??

It just sends a signal to other employers that "hey if you get caught, we'll only ask you to pay back what you got caught for"

Of course if the employee had dipped his hand in the till for a fraction of that amount what are the chances that he'd have a criminal record for it or perhaps time in prison ?

In fairness, punitive damages are regularly given in cases such as this but mostly by the Employment appeals tribunal or the Labour court. What reached the court on this occasion was just looking to get what the rights commisioner awarded.

we still need criminal legislation for this though

Capt'n Midnight

sensibleken wrote: »

In fairness, punitive damages are regularly given in cases such as this but mostly by the Employment appeals tribunal or the Labour court. What reached the court on this occasion was just looking to get what the rights commisioner awarded.

I'm just pointing out that there has been no downside for the owner on this, at the very worst it's cheap money. At present it's nearly free money.

If you owed this much money to the bank you'd have to have collateral or life insurance , because there is a significant chance that either of the people involved could die over the course of a decade

we still need criminal legislation for this though

totally agree, this case is an example. 10 years waiting to get paid. In some cases it's only been the actual threat of jail that has resulted in payments.
Who pays for the legal costs ?
Who pays for the interest rates on the money the employee borrowed to live on / opportunity cost of not having it ?
How much did the owner make on this money over the last decade ?

conorhal

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that €86,134 of this was back pay going to 10 years ago.

So for the restaurateur this is not a punishment, it's been a very cheap overdraft. That might never be paid off, what happens if the restaurant goes bust ??

It just sends a signal to other employers that "hey if you get caught, we'll only ask you to pay back what you got caught for"

Of course if the employee had dipped his hand in the till for a fraction of that amount what are the chances that he'd have a criminal record for it or perhaps time in prison ?

What I don't understand is how the authorities haven't revoked this chancers residency permit, deported his slave owning ass back to Pakistan and seized his businesses and sold them off to ensure that this poor man got his compensation.
The level of inertia in this country when it comes to regulation and enforcement just staggers me.
Certainly I would hope that, imigration, labor, health and tax inspectors have gone through his businesses with a fine tooth comb looking for any and every opportunity to jail the bastard. That ordinary people have to protest outside a business to demand justice is just shameful.

Nodin

conorhal wrote: »

What I don't understand is how the authorities haven't revoked this chancers residency permit, deported his slave owning ass back to Pakistan and seized his businesses and sold them off to ensure that this poor man got his compensation.
The level of inertia in this country when it comes to regulation and enforcement just staggers me.

I'd imagine thats somewhere in the same drawer as "Why can I hear my neighbours texting through the walls?" "You mean somebody signed off on this and nobody is liable?" and "Why is there a housing estate in a turlough?"

conorhal

Nodin wrote: »

I'd imagine thats somewhere in the same drawer as "Why can I hear my neighbours texting through the walls?" "You mean somebody signed off on this and nobody is liable?" and "Why is there a housing estate in a turlough?"

Nonsense like this just angers me. It think it's time we fly in a plane load of those transexual tax-inspectors that they use in Pakistan to flashmob his businesses and barrak him until he pays up....

Nodin

conorhal wrote: »

Nonsense like this just angers me. It think it's time we fly in a plane load of those transexual tax-inspectors that they use in Pakistan to flashmob his businesses and barrak him until he pays up....

.....plant a rumor it was him that grassed out Bin laden and threaten to deport him would do the trick.

Annasopra

apparently they're gonna cover this on Primetime tonight

boobar

Dionysus wrote: »

I just heard a variant of this story on the radio on the way home.

---

Boss ordered to give €91,000 to 'slave' worker
By Aideen Sheehan
Wednesday September 14 2011


A HIGH-PROFILE restaurateur has been ordered to pay a worker €91,000 for gross exploitation which has been likened to slavery.

The Labour Court has ordered Poppadom restaurant chain owner Amjad Hussein to pay Pakistani chef Muhammad Younis €91,000 over breaches of employment rights.

Mr Younis said he was forced to work 77 hours a week as a Tandoori chef at Poppadom takeaway in Clondalkin, with Christmas Day his only time off during the seven years he worked there.

During that time he was paid just 51c an hour between 2002 and 2005, although he secured increases to €4.46 an hour in 2005 and €6.25 an hour in 2006, all well below the minimum wage.

Mr Younis said he was also forced to work without any contract, tax or social contributions being paid, and his employer failed to renew his work permit or his passport as promised, leaving him undocumented.

He shared an overcrowded house in Leixlip provided by Mr Hussein.

He eventually left the job in 2009 and approached the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI) for assistance.

Rulings by the Labour Court this month have upheld previous Rights Commissioner rulings that Mr Younis should be paid €86,134 in back pay owed to him by his former employer under the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 and €5,000 under the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997.

Desperate

However, Mr Younis may now face another legal battle to get his money, as the MRCI said it may have to seek an order for payment from the Circuit Court if Mr Hussein fails to pay up what he owes.

Mr Younis told the Irish Independent he was desperate to get the money he was owed as he has a wife and nine children at home to support. He has not seen his family since he came to Ireland in 2002.

He said that while he was working at Poppadom between 2002 and 2009, he despaired for his future. "The exploitation I suffered put me in a deep, dark well. I felt I had no hope for my future and no way out," he said.

He is currently living in a hostel on the equivalent of an asylum seeker's allowance of €19.80 a week, and has been seeking a new job to secure a work permit.

The case is one of 150 taken by the MRCI in the past six years -- including five cases this year -- for a variety of workers including domestic and restaurant staff, farm and circus workers.

"The gross exploitation and chronic conditions that Mr Younis suffered constitute forced labour.

"In Ireland there is no legal punishment for forced labour and so the only remedy open to Mr Younis was to pursue breaches of employment law," said Grainne O'Toole of the MRCI.

Ireland was in contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights by failing to bring in legal protection against slavery and forced labour, she added.

Mr Hussein did not respond to requests for a comment.

Boss ordered to give €91,000 to 'slave' worker

---

If, like me, you're ethically and culturally hostile to Independent Newspapers, this is Journal.ie's take on this story:


Restaurant worker awarded €86,000 after years of forced labour in Dublin


A RESTAURANT WORKER who was forced to work for seven years for paltry pay and almost no days off has been awarded €86,000 by the Labour Court.
Muhammad Younis, who is originally from Pakistan, worked as a chef at the Poppadom restaurant in Clondalkin from 2002 to 2009 in what have been described as ‘chronic conditions’ by the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI).
Younis was forced to work 77 hours a week without a contract. He paid no tax or social insurance contributions and was subjected to threats.
The Irish Independent reports today that he was paid just 51 cent an hour during the first three years that he worked at the restaurant. His hourly pay rose to just under €4.50 in 2005, and then to €6.25 in 2006.
Younis shared a house with nine other workers. The accommodation was provided by his ex-employer Amjad Hussein, who was this week ordered to pay tens of thousands in back wages by the Labour Court. A Rights Commissioner originally awarded the sum to Mr. Younis, but his former employer has not yet paid the compensation.
Younis has been living in a hostel for the past two years, after he left his job and sought assistance from the MRCI. His former employer had failed to renew his work permit, leaving him undocumented. Younis has welcomed the Labour Court decision, saying:
I am away from my family, jobless and I am owed a lot of money for my work. I am suffering because of the bad treatment I was subjected to. All I want now is justice.
The MRCI yesterday said that it regularly comes across cases in Ireland were vulnerable people are being held and forced to work in conditions of slavery. The organisation said there have been at least 150 cases in the past six years.
Delphine O’Keefe of the MRCI told TheJournal.ie that the restaurant industry is one of the sectors where non-compliance and exploitation are ongoing issues. She’s calling on the government to introduce a law to specifically criminalise forced labour.
The MRCI has said that Ireland is in breach of Article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which provides protection against slavery and forced labour. It says that the biggest struggle facing the MRCI in terms of Mr. Younis’ case is ensuring that he actually gets paid what he is owed.

Restaurant worker awarded €86,000 after years of forced labour in Dublin

---

Imagine that, a complete bastard and he's not one of the 88 million Germans/Nazis (:rolleyes:) but living here in Dublin and the culprit in question is not being imprisoned because the democratically-elected government of Ireland does not have laws to imprison somebody who "enslaves" another person in Ireland. Does this mean, going on the Germans=Nazis analogy throughout this thread, that all the Irish people support slavery? (hey, weren't those people in Britain also Irish? - oops, this German=Nazi analogy has its faults!)

Anyway, the above anti-retard rant out of the way, how many more people in this state are being exploited to the extent of bonded slavery and the offenders are getting off because our elected governments have failed to make it a crime worthy of imprisonment? Leaving aside all the ethnic restaurants like that Indian restaurant in Clondalkin, how many cheapskate Irish people are, as I write, exploiting non-Irish au pairs and house staff of all sorts in an abysmal way, a way they would not be able to treat an Irish person?

Waits for the "lucky to have a job" response

Annasopra

So he still hasn't got any of his 91 grand and the law in Ireland doesn't criminalize forced labour - disgraceful

Capt'n Midnight

Has the owner paid the income tax and PRSI etc on the back wages ?

And if not why hasn't the revenue done him ?

They charge interest on missed payments.

DerekDGoldfish

I have ordered from this place in the past, I wont ever give them my business again.

Eire Go Brach

Just walked by. It's closed. Or rebranding?

I wonder did the poor man ever get his money back.

bcirl03

Looks like Muhammad Younis will not be getting the monies owed to him.

Restaurant ordered to pay worker €86,000 have ruling overturned -

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/restaurant-ordered-to-pay-worker-86000-have-ruling-overturned-565141.html

Nodin

Bizarre state of affairs. He's only here illegally because yer man never renewed his visa.....

I hope they've lost that much money from clientele refusing to use their establishment.

Annasopra

bcirl03 wrote: »

Looks like Muhammad Younis will not be getting the monies owed to him.

Restaurant ordered to pay worker €86,000 have ruling overturned -

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/restaurant-ordered-to-pay-worker-86000-have-ruling-overturned-565141.html

I'd say it will go to the Supreme Court.

bcirl03

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope they've lost that much money from clientele refusing to use their establishment.

Lets hope.

I know the take away in Clondalkin has changed name so people may not be aware and still order from there.

Cant remember what it's called now.....

Bannasidhe

mango salsa wrote: »

I'd say it will go to the Supreme Court.

I hope it does.

frag420

When i lived in Sligo I was a regualar in popadoms. Since reading about this last year I have not darkened their door since.

I miss the lamb chetinad though..............mmmmm

Sleepy

Anyone else wish the judge had the discretion to just do the right thing here: give the man a visa and the restaurant after confiscating it from the criminal?

Eire Go Brach

bcirl03 wrote: »

Lets hope.

I know the take away in Clondalkin has changed name so people may not be aware and still order from there.

Cant remember what it's called now.....

It's called Khan's Balti house. One same guy that was in poppadoms is also here. I just went the once.

It could be the owner Amjad Hussein. But I don't know what he looks like.

juan.kerr

I hope he gets his money then pays any PAYE/PRSI/USC due on it over the years he was employed.

The last thing we need is his wife and 9 children over here though.

aloyisious

Mr Justice Hogan said that as the man's employer had refused to extend the man's Working Visa, he had to rule the man was working illegally, therefor the man could NOT make a case to the Rights Commissioner and the RC ruling and award could NOT stand. Mr Justice Hogan has forwarded his ruling on the case to the Govt and other interested parties, for their info/action. The award seem's to have been topped-off to €92,000.

Edit: it seem's the claimant, Mr Ulis, was asked here by his cousin, Mr Hussein, seven years ago to work as a chef and during that time Mt Hussein, despite being asked to do so, did not extend the time-limit of the working visa. The rules of the Migrant Workers legislation apply to the case, eg,no visa/no work permit or documentation equates to working illegally. There's also mention that Mr Hussein brought an appeal against the RC compensation ruling and might even have the right to take a case for legal costs against his cousin, Mr Ulis, the chef.

juan.kerr

Was yer man here legally? The radio news seems to suggest he wasn't?

Annasopra

juan.kerr wrote: »

Was yer man here legally? The radio news seems to suggest he wasn't?

Yes - at the start - he asked his employer/cousin numerous times to renew his permit and his employer/cousin didn't

Nodin

juan.kerr wrote: »

I hope he gets his money then pays any PAYE/PRSI/USC due on it over the years he was employed.

The last thing we need is his wife and 9 children over here though.

I'd rather 10 of them and two wives here than one narrow minded bigot, personally speaking.