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Does being drunk sitting in a car count as a drink driving offence?

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  • 15-09-2011 1:07pm
    #1
    mushroom
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭


    Would it be a drink driving offence to be under the influence and sit in one's car in a hotel car park with a drink in the car without moving?

    And if a Garda confiscated the car keys of such a person for 24 hours as punishment without breathalysing or charging the person on the spot, would there be a chance for any further legal recourse in the future via adult warning scheme or other offence? (say.. drunken disorderly/intoxicated in public?)
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    #2
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    If you have the keys in the ignition you can be done for drink driving.


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    #3
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    jonny24ie wrote: »
    If you have the keys in the ignition you can be done for drink driving.
    I don't even think they need to be in the ignition.


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    #4
    I love Joan Burton
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 248 ✭✭I love Joan Burton


    jonny24ie wrote: »
    If you have the keys in the ignition you can be done for drink driving.

    Put key cosyily snug under the tyre, get in back seat, guards (pigs) cant say a thing


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    #5
    mushroom
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭mushroom


    jonny24ie wrote: »
    If you have the keys in the ignition you can be done for drink driving.

    Wouldn't one be arrested/breathalysed/charged on the spot? Rather than later?


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    #6
    Traditional
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Traditional


    yep once you are in control of a vehicle , even with the hand brake on , and sitting in the drivers seat ,the cops love that another conviction in the little black book , oh lovely have him in next time u can be done , climb into the back seat an snooze away !


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    #7
    ANXIOUS
    Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ANXIOUS


    Im pretty sure that there is a recent thread on this. I think the jist was that you could be charged. The right thing to do is have the key in the boot, and if the gardai ask your intention is to sleep it off and get a taxi home in the morning.


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    #8
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    mushroom wrote: »
    Would it be a drink driving offence to be under the influence and sit in one's car in a hotel car park with a drink in the car without moving?

    It is considered an offence. IMO its a bit stupid as it punishes the person trying to do the right thing by not driving and trying to sleep it off, but thats the way it is.
    mushroom wrote: »
    And if a Garda confiscated the car keys of such a person for 24 hours as punishment without breathalysing or charging the person on the spot, would there be a chance for any further legal recourse in the future via adult warning scheme or other offence? (say.. drunken disorderly/intoxicated in public?)

    In this case a guard is doing you a favour for taking your keys, because do you really want people(or your boss) knowing you failed a breathalyser test? And if/once you fail it, it cant be undone, and the guard would be breaking numerous laws by ignoring it.

    Im not suggesting it is you, I am saying, if it was I in the position, I'd rather not have the car for a day, than a record somewhere saying that I failed a breathalyser.


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    #9
    mushroom
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭mushroom


    syklops wrote: »
    In this case a guard is doing you a favour for taking your keys, because do you really want people(or your boss) knowing you failed a breathalyser test? And if/once you fail it, it cant be undone, and the guard would be breaking numerous laws by ignoring it.

    So you would imagine then, that the taking of the keys would be the punishment and that would be the end of it? Can these type of offences be charged/proved after the fact (later)?


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    #10
    The Dagda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭The Dagda


    The Garda was doing you a favour when he took your car keys. Just go into the station and tell them a Garda left keys there for you to collect. There won't be any subsequent charges.


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    #11
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    mushroom wrote: »
    So you would imagine then, that the taking of the keys would be the punishment and that would be the end of it? Can these type of offences be charged/proved after the fact (later)?

    Im not a guard btw.
    That aside, the taking of the keys is not a punishment administered at the guards discretion, it is a preventative measure. It prevents the individual from a) driving the car and possibly injuring themselves or someone else and b) from another guard charging the same person for the same offense.


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    #12
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    syklops wrote: »
    That aside, the taking of the keys is not a punishment administered at the guards discretion, it is a preventative measure.
    Correct, the offence is driving, or intending or attempting to drive a vehicle while under the influence.

    It's only a punishment if you intended to drive the vehicle and were therefore guilty of the offence.
    Otherwise, by taking the keys the Garda was making it impossible for the person to be found guilty of such an offence, since without the keys someone cannot intend to or attempt to drive the vehicle.

    The Garda probably trusted the person's intentions, but knew that another Garda might not take the same view, so took the keys away to prevent another member from arresting the guy sleeping in his car.

    If the Garda had wished to prosecute, he would have had to take him down to the station and breathalyse him.

    The "fictional" person in this account would do well to thank the Garda personally for his actions.


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    #13
    mushroom
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭mushroom


    seamus wrote: »
    The "fictional" person in this account would do well to thank the Garda personally for his actions.

    The fictional person would do well to remember the garda's name.

    Thank you all for the detailed and informative responses. :)


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    #14
    jblack
    Registered Users Posts: 476 ✭✭jblack


    ANXIOUS wrote: »
    Im pretty sure that there is a recent thread on this. I think the jist was that you could be charged. The right thing to do is have the key in the boot, and if the gardai ask your intention is to sleep it off and get a taxi home in the morning.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74132737&utm_source=notification&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=notify#post74132737


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    #15
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    syklops wrote: »
    It is considered an offence. IMO its a bit stupid as it punishes the person trying to do the right thing by not driving and trying to sleep it off, but thats the way it is.

    The right thing to do is go home and come back sober to get your car. A person who sleeps in their car will most likely decide to drive too early the next morning.


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    #16
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    The right thing to do is go home and come back sober to get your car.

    Well yes, but my problem with it is I cant imagine too many people prefer sleeping in their cars over as you say, going home. Most people IMO who end up in that situation, can't get home. Can't get a taxi, can't get a friend to pick them up, so sleeping in the car is the last resort. Instead of biting the bullet and driving home, they do the right thing and stay put and in some cases get bitten for it.
    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    A person who sleeps in their car will most likely decide to drive too early the next morning.
    If they decided not to drink while drunk, why would they decide to drive when still not capable but with a clearer mind?

    I understand the reasoning, but it just seems unfair.


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    #17
    busman
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭busman


    mushroom wrote: »
    The fictional person would do well to remember the garda's name.

    Thank you all for the detailed and informative responses. :)

    The fictional person would also do well to take this as a final warning and not get in the situation again! I'm sure you will be watched closely ;)


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    #18
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    I would imagine in most cases if the Garda was of the impression they were just sleeping. The result would not be that bad. In light of the next morning driving. Mr average has 10 beer bottles between 8 and midnight. Mr average is in work at 9am its a 30 minute drive to work from the pub car park. When he wakes at about 7 in the car he possibly not be able to get back to sleep. He will not however be right to drive. He has about 3 standard drinks on board. If you were a betting man what odds would you give on Mr average driving.


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    #19
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    syklops wrote: »
    Well yes, but my problem with it is I cant imagine too many people prefer sleeping in their cars over as you say, going home. Most people IMO who end up in that situation, can't get home. Can't get a taxi, can't get a friend to pick them up, so sleeping in the car is the last resort. Instead of biting the bullet and driving home, they do the right thing and stay put and in some cases get bitten for it.

    Check into a hotel?

    However, if they were in that situation, as somebody else said they would be well advised to leave the keys under the car.
    If they decided not to drink while drunk, why would they decide to drive when still not capable but with a clearer mind?

    I understand the reasoning, but it just seems unfair.

    Most people can tell right from wrong when they are drunk. Even if they do something wrong, they know it's wrong, they just have less inhibitions about it.

    If you have to sleep in a cold car and suffering from a hangover, the thing that you will want to do at the earliest opportunity is drive home. Especially if the car is a public place.

    Sleeping in cars is a risky business. I know of one case where the occupant died after the car caught fire. He'd switched the engine on to run the heater and fell asleep. Somehow the car caught fire and he died.


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    #20
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    How long ago was that Brian? I think I know the case.


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    #21
    MapForJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭MapForJ


    I love Joan Burton wrote: »
    Put key cosyily snug under the tyre, get in back seat, guards (pigs) cant say a thing
    some guards drive drunk themselves or are in the pub after closing time


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    #22
    NUTLEY BOY
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    If the hypothetical person in charge of the vehicle was in an hotel car park does that constitute a public place within the meaning of the Road Traffic Acts ?

    If, on the facts, it is not a public place then most of the potential RTA offences can not apply.

    Are there non-RTA laws that might be applied as where the garda acts to prevent a potential crime being committed ?

    Incidentally, "I love Joan Burton", not all gardai are pigs. The real pigs are the articles that they are supposed to put up with during the course of constabulary duties :D


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    #23
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    MapForJ wrote: »
    some guards drive drunk themselves or are in the pub after closing time

    Not really sure hoe that is relevant.
    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    If the hypothetical person in charge of the vehicle was in an hotel car park does that constitute a public place within the meaning of the Road Traffic Acts ?

    If, on the facts, it is not a public place then most of the potential RTA offences can not apply.

    Are there non-RTA laws that might be applied as where the garda acts to prevent a potential crime being committed ?

    Incidentally, "I love Joan Burton", not all gardai are pigs. The real pigs are the articles that they are supposed to put up with during the course of constabulary duties :D

    A hotel carpark would most likely come under the definition. But it really is dependant on the exact circumstances.


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    #24
    MapForJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭MapForJ


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Not really sure hoe that is relevant.
    what i post does not have to have relevance for you


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    #25
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    MapForJ wrote: »
    what i post does not have to have relevance for you

    It should have relevance to what is being discussed though. Otherwise it's just trolling.


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    #26
    MapForJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭MapForJ


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    It should have relevance to what is being discussed though. Otherwise it's just trolling.
    just becasue it is not relevan to you does not mean it is not relevant. if you think its a troll then report it


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    #27
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    MapForJ wrote: »
    some guards drive drunk themselves or are in the pub after closing time

    If you know of gardaí doing this, you have a responsibility to report them.


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    #28
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,402 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    syklops wrote: »
    It is considered an offence. IMO its a bit stupid as it punishes the person trying to do the right thing by not driving and trying to sleep it off, but thats the way it is.
    And what if the person wakes in a confused state and then decides to drive home?


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    #29
    blackdog2
    Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭blackdog2


    Victor wrote: »
    And what if the person wakes in a confused state and then decides to drive home?

    I don't mean this as an anti-Garda remark,

    but a Garda officer should not and cannot try to predict the behaviour of someone without a reason to believe that person is a serious and immediate risk to public safety.


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    #30
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    blackdog2 wrote: »
    I don't mean this as an anti-Garda remark,

    but a Garda officer should not and cannot try to predict the behaviour of someone without a reason to believe that person is a serious and immediate risk to public safety.

    Due to the way section 50 of the RTA 1961 is drafted the person in the situation was more than likely committing an offence. The offence is being in charge of a MPV with the intention to drive. That intention has been inferred by the HC to include some time in the future, example found in car at 3 in te morning, an hour from where you work and you tell Garda you intended to drive in a few hours. Then according to HC you are committing an offence. It is important to note that intention is inferred by being in charge, the defendant must rebut that presumption, in other words prove he had no intention.

    The Garda in this case very likely saved the guy from a ban, at the very least. By taking the keys, the person was no longer in charge, as Garda had in reality taken charge of the MPV.

    If anyone has issue with section 50, then it is best to bring it to the attention of you TD and request that it be repealed or amended.


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    #31
    Bosco boy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭Bosco boy


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    blackdog2 wrote: »
    I don't mean this as an anti-Garda remark,

    but a Garda officer should not and cannot try to predict the behaviour of someone without a reason to believe that person is a serious and immediate risk to public safety.

    Due to the way section 50 of the RTA 1961 is drafted the person in the situation was more than likely committing an offence. The offence is being in charge of a MPV with the intention to drive. That intention has been inferred by the HC to include some time in the future, example found in car at 3 in te morning, an hour from where you work and you tell Garda you intended to drive in a few hours. Then according to HC you are committing an offence. It is important to note that intention is inferred by being in charge, the defendant must rebut that presumption, in other words prove he had no intention.

    The Garda in this case very likely saved the guy from a ban, at the very least. By taking the keys, the person was no longer in charge, as Garda had in reality taken charge of the MPV.

    If anyone has issue with section 50, then it is best to bring it to the attention of you TD and request that it be repealed or amended.

    I'm just being the devils advocate but what power has the Garda to take the keys, when not arresting the driver for the alleged offence. What if the driver called into the station the next day and reported the theft of his car keys?


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