2014 base year?

blue5000

Anyone see the comic yet?
'2014 proposal as the base year for a new reference period for the basic flat rate payment' Official publication date is 12th October

Looks like anyone renting land is in for a rough few years!

flatout11

havent got the comic yet....
so let me get this straight land only not on stock numbers???

whelan1

its all speculation again:rolleyes:

JohnBoy

That's the gist of it, must read it again later, was reading it while queing for my lunch.


What I dont get is why do we need reference years for an area based scheme? why cant it be based on the maps that are submitted each year.

Not going to suit us at all we have land that's coming back from a lease on 1st of january 2015. our entitlements are transferred with the lease, I wonder now if those entitlements will ever come back to us now

Still though no scheme is going to suit everyone, and as young farmers, recent entrants, and having low value entitlements it looks like we might gain in other areas.

reilig

whelan1 wrote: »

its all speculation again:rolleyes:

Totally agree.

They had no major story for this week's front page so they decided just to stir it up and cause a bit of panic.

JohnBoy

whelan1 wrote: »

its all speculation again:rolleyes:

No this is a bit more than speculation, this is based off these "leaked" proposal documents that have been coming out over the last few weeks.

The final proposal due out on the 13th is going to be substantially based on these leaks.


That said, the proposal is just a proposal.

blue5000

Ya seems to be land based, so far. Also consessions for 'young' farmers under 40, looks like they'll get 25% extra for the first 4-5 yrs. Possibility of a min. stocking rate too, maybe just to make it awkward for sofa producers.

Only a propasal so far, I reckon they're just throwing it out to see what way we react;)

whelan1

did you not see the word "if" in the first sentence

whelan1

blue5000 wrote: »

Ya seems to be land based, so far. Also consessions for 'young' farmers under 40, looks like they'll get 25% extra for the first 4-5 yrs. Possibility of a min. stocking rate too, maybe just to make it awkward for sofa producers.

Only a propasal so far, I reckon they're just throwing it out to see what way we react;)

fook i will be 40 that year:D

reilig

JohnBoy wrote: »

No this is a bit more than speculation, this is based off these "leaked" proposal documents that have been coming out over the last few weeks.

The final proposal due out on the 13th is going to be substantially based on these leaks.


That said, the proposal is just a proposal.

Land Grab Feared IF 2014 is the reference year

Its not new information. They say in the article that this is based on the document that was leaked in August. They have no new information, there was no new leak in the last week to give them new information. There was only one document "leaked" last august and the people in the know in Brussles say that this was done purposely to get a feel for what the reaction might be from both the grass root farmers and the governments of the affected states. Many governments made submissions based on the information in the "leak", hopefully ours did too. A lot of things could change between August and October!!!

JohnBoy

yeah "if the proposal to set 2014 as a new reference period for the basic flat rate payment is brought in under CAP reform"

it's speculation, but speculation based off these leaked proposals, not speculation based off lads down the mart

JohnBoy

reilig wrote: »

A lot of things could change between August and October!!!

That's certainly true, and also october is only the finalised proposal, which will then have to be ratified, which could see further changes.

blue5000

whelan1 wrote: »

did you not see the word "if" in the first sentence

Honestly "no"

Tipp Man

Well there are a few things that are nearly guaranteed to happen:

1) that it will be an area based payments system (certainly for the base rate)

2) that the payment rate will be in or around €110 an acre

3) that there will be other "green" measures to top up the rate

4) there will be a cap on the amount received

Not sure why they need to bring in a reference year - seems stupid to me and a reason to drive the price of rental land through the roof

Like many farmers around me we will be significantly worse off with these changes

5live

blue5000 wrote: »

Honestly "no"

redzerologhlen

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well there are a few things that are nearly guaranteed to happen:

1) that it will be an area based payments system (certainly for the base rate)

2) that the payment rate will be in or around €110 an acre

3) that there will be other "green" measures to top up the rate

4) there will be a cap on the amount received

Not sure why they need to bring in a reference year - seems stupid to me and a reason to drive the price of rental land through the roof

Like many farmers around me we will be significantly worse off with these changes

I thought it said in the comic that it could be as low as 70 yoyo,s a hectare:eek:

flatout11

god only knows what the green top up will entail!!!
why run the story without any new info on the sujbect (havent read it yet) is the lads that were stocked to the hilt for the last few years not sweating enough

Tipp Man

redzerologhlen wrote: »

I thought it said in the comic that it could be as low as 70 yoyo,s a hectare:eek:

I very much doubt it will be that low (only my opinion!!)

The figure i have seen bandied about is 270 a hectare

redzerologhlen

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well there are a few things that are nearly guaranteed to happen:

1) that it will be an area based payments system (certainly for the base rate)

2) that the payment rate will be in or around €110 an acre

3) that there will be other "green" measures to top up the rate

4) there will be a cap on the amount received

Not sure why they need to bring in a reference year - seems stupid to me and a reason to drive the price of rental land through the roof

Like many farmers around me we will be significantly worse off with these changes

Tipp Man wrote: »

I very much doubt it will be that low (only my opinion!!)

The figure i have seen bandied about is 270 a hectare

Well I hope it is!! If it 70 a hectare there wont be many left suckling!!!

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

I very much doubt it will be that low (only my opinion!!)

The figure i have seen bandied about is 270 a hectare

Where did you see that figure?

Tipp Man

I haven't read the journal yet but there was a similar headline in the farming indo on Tuesday as well

Are people sure that there hasn't been a further leaked document?

Funny that both would run similar stories on an old leaked document. My impression from the indo was that another document was leaked which is pretty close to what the proposals will be. But i didn't spend that long reading it

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

Where did you see that figure?

Third last paragraph here. And in various places throughout the summer

http://www.independent.ie/farming/news-features/cioloss-cap-vision-begins-to-take-hold-2874163.html

supersean1999

its hard to know what to think, i wonder will commanages be at a reduced level of pay, id imagine it might be half rate of something like that, d-day wont be long coming so the guessing will be soon over, :eek:

5live

Tipp Man wrote: »

I very much doubt it will be that low (only my opinion!!)

The figure i have seen bandied about is 270 a hectare

That 270 is the current average per ha. They are looking at a drop of about 35 from that iirc to an average of 235. The guys on big figures eg over 500 will get over half that to something about 300 while those under 200 will be the biggest winners.

But why the base year? If the figure works out at 235/ha then when the land reverts back to the owner surely that 235 will be attached to the land?

leg wax

if your entitlements were 1100 euro now and in the reference year you were farming 4 times the land what would your payment be under these proposals at a guess:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Tipp Man

5live wrote: »

That 270 is the current average per ha. They are looking at a drop of about 35 from that iirc to an average of 235. The guys on big figures eg over 500 will get over half that to something about 300 while those under 200 will be the biggest winners.

But why the base year? If the figure works out at 235/ha then when the land reverts back to the owner surely that 235 will be attached to the land?

Sorry you are right - 270 is the current average

235 an acre - even worse for us then

Tipp Man

leg wax wrote: »

if your entitlements were 1100 euro now and in the reference year you were farming 4 times the land what would your payment be under these proposals at a guess:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Impossible to say as we have no idea how you were farming back in the reference years.

If you want a rough estimate calculate your current (or 2014 if you think it will be different from current) hectares and multiply by anything from 235-270. This should give you an idea of what you could be likely to get as the base rate

There is then talk of green measures and what they will be worth or how they will be calculated is anybody's idea at the moment

Disclaimer: currently it is only guesswork so take with a pinch of salt - you'll know a lot more on October 15th I think it is

5live

leg wax wrote: »

if your entitlements were 1100 euro now and in the reference year you were farming 4 times the land what would your payment be under these proposals at a guess:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Easy. Reverting to 235/ha progessively over the next few years probably from about 600/ha in the first year. And why the :rolleyes::rolleyes:? Did i not just answer the question asked

leg wax

5live wrote: »

Easy. Reverting to 235/ha progessively over the next few years probably from about 600/ha in the first year. And why the :rolleyes::rolleyes:? Did i not just answer the question asked

sorry yes you did.

supersean1999

any info on the commanage

bob charles

Dont think it will be worth drawing down the payment if its say €150 a ha, the current bull sh*t regs if upheld will drive people away for bothering applying for the SFP. This would be a nightmare scenario for the people in power. What is the most serious in the proposals is the 95% rule on permanent pasture. If ag inflation continues there will be many who will tell the jobsworth where to stick it

JohnBoy

That one was interesting too.

From what I know of the UK system if you reseed grass then it's permanent pasture, but if you reseed with a forage crop in between then it's temporary pasture for five years.

are the rules here the same?

could make forage crops with undersown grass much more popular.

bob charles

well such a rule would seriously impact my farm to develop over the forseeable future. Most of my grassland is part of a rotation and would be in grass for 1-3 yrs. Would red clover be considered permanent pasture or cropping?

Juniorhurler

bob charles wrote: »

Dont think it will be worth drawing down the payment if its say €150 a ha, the current bull sh*t regs if upheld will drive people away for bothering applying for the SFP. This would be a nightmare scenario for the people in power. What is the most serious in the proposals is the 95% rule on permanent pasture. If ag inflation continues there will be many who will tell the jobsworth where to stick it

Didn't see the comic yet. Can somebody explain the 95% rule to me please?

5live

bob charles wrote: »

well such a rule would seriously impact my farm to develop over the forseeable future. Most of my grassland is part of a rotation and would be in grass for 1-3 yrs. Would red clover be considered permanent pasture or cropping?

I think once its in grass for 5 years then it is deemed permanent pasture so you should be ok.

Tbh i'm not too worried about the rate as i wont gain or lose too much but if a grass reseed becomes permanent pasture and has to be maintained as such then the level of land available for grain will fall. And it will put pasture farmers at a serious disadvantage as grain farmers can sow grass if it is profitable to keep cattle but if it is more profitable to grow grain than keep cattle then tough, you as a grass farmer will have to find something else to do with your grass:mad:

F.D

I hope they look back over the last 5 years and anyone thats been bone idle and living off the payments gets the biggest reduction
Its crazy if there is a reference year, watching all these fellas suddenly taking there hand out of there pockets and buying stock blowing the cobwebs out of the sheds and actually farming for a change

5live

Look i'm a bit confused at this stage. Afaik the proposals are that each declared hectare in the reference year will get a basic entitlement. Then there will be a topup for 'greening'(whatever that is:rolleyes:) and then a reducing ammount each year based on previous entitlements. Am i right so far?

Now my understanding is that the land holds the entitlement, not the farmer as is currently the case. So if you farm 50ha owned and rented, you get paid on 50ha and if you lease/rent in another 10ha you will get paid on that 10ha too.

I dont understand how this proposal is going to drive land rental mad. Can someone please explain because i just dont get how

reilig

5live wrote: »

I dont understand how this proposal is going to drive land rental mad. Can someone please explain because i just dont get how

Simples.

If 2014 is the reference year, for the new payment, a lot of farmers will try to rent land for this year in order to increase the amount of money that they can receive. Many will start leasing or looking for a lease in the coming months and this will drive prices up for next year and subsequent years. Also, those who own land but currently have it leased will be looking to take back their land so that they can have the SFP for themselves. Thus driving land rental mad with a lack of land available and a lot of people looking for land to rent.

However, this is all just speculation based on a leaked document which people who work in the EU parliament in Brussles claim was released in order to get submissions from the relative countries that it will affect. There seems to be panic on this thread, people saying that they will have to get out of farming, people worried about grassland rotation.

Its unfounded worry at this stage. Remember, these are only proposals which will have to be voted on. Do you think that the French or British don't have the same issues as we have to these proposals???? They'll change several times before they impact on us.

Next week's headline in the journal should read Stupid IFJ lead story based on an unproven leaked document causes farmers to panic and pushes up speculative land rental prices by 25% for no reason other than the IFJ had no lead article last week. Silly Us!!!

5live

reilig wrote: »

Simples.

If 2014 is the reference year, for the new payment, a lot of farmers will try to rent land for this year in order to increase the amount of money that they can receive. Many will start leasing or looking for a lease in the coming months and this will drive prices up for next year and subsequent years. Also, those who own land but currently have it leased will be looking to take back their land so that they can have the SFP for themselves. Thus driving land rental mad with a lack of land available and a lot of people looking for land to rent.

However, this is all just speculation based on a leaked document which people who work in the EU parliament in Brussles claim was released in order to get submissions from the relative countries that it will affect. There seems to be panic on this thread, people saying that they will have to get out of farming, people worried about grassland rotation.

Its unfounded worry at this stage. Remember, these are only proposals which will have to be voted on. Do you think that the French or British don't have the same issues as we have to these proposals???? They'll change several times before they impact on us.

Next week's headline in the journal should read Stupid IFJ lead story based on an unproven leaked document causes farmers to panic and pushes up speculative land rental prices by 25% for no reason other than the IFJ had no lead article last week. Silly Us!!!

Thanks reilig but from what i am reading ,and i could be wrong on this, the entitlement will be on the land not the farmer or the stock. So if a 50ha farmer doubles his land base in 2014 and gets the 235/ha (?) for a few years on his now 100ha, when he goes back to 50ha, he will still get 235/ha on 50 ha. There is no provision to stack entitlements as far as i can see so i cant see what extra he will gain by having way more land in 2014 over what he would normally have

reilig

5live wrote: »

Thanks reilig but from what i am reading ,and i could be wrong on this, the entitlement will be on the land not the farmer or the stock. So if a 50ha farmer doubles his land base in 2014 and gets the 235/ha (?) for a few years on his now 100ha, when he goes back to 50ha, he will still get 235/ha on 50 ha. There is no provision to stack entitlements as far as i can see so i cant see what extra he will gain by having way more land in 2014 over what he would normally have

I agree with you. But it doesn't stop the Comic from publishing misleading thrash!!

Nutsforever

Hi, slightly off topic but...I was just on the department website, I thought you could view farmers' payments, has this changed? if so, since when? Did the website publish what farmers would be paid in advance or did they publish details after payment?

johngalway

Nutsforever wrote: »

Hi, slightly off topic but...I was just on the department website, I thought you could view farmers' payments, has this changed? if so, since when? Did the website publish what farmers would be paid in advance or did they publish details after payment?

I think that was changed and is no longer available?

Nutsforever

Thanks...
didnt hear anything about it, anyone else know anything about it..?

reilig

Nutsforever wrote: »

Thanks...
didnt hear anything about it, anyone else know anything about it..?

Definitely no longer available. I think that one of the "Larger" receipients brought a legal action against it stating that it contravened data protection laws.

AFAIK, you can still find out how much is being paid out, but you can't see who is receiveing the money or what county they are from!!

Nutsforever

Thanks Reilig. Do you know when it use to be published, like if they were paid in October 2009, when was it published on the website?

bbam

Just checked website and it has links for 2007 & 2008 payments...
But when you run a search it errors out for a server problem..

Thank god.. was a stupid thing

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/agri-foodindustry/euinternationalpolicy/commonagriculturalpolicycap/capbeneficiariesdatabase/paymentsdatabase/cap_ben_year.jsp

flatout11

this much we can guarentee
it will change a lot before its finalised
it wont be simple
it will contain a whole load of rubbish termed 'greening' that will do nothing for farming or the enviroment as it never does
it will benifit the armchair farmers
and they will make the same mistake again of having a referance year
despite the fact that every sq inch of land and head of stock are accounted for each year anyway so we could have a rolling base (ie payed on the previous years details.........
oh yea the calendar will have to be incorperated into it some how sure thats how we all should farm by the date......
ah the joys of the cheque in the post!!! makes selling stock seem simple!!!!

redzerologhlen

I find it hard to believe the payment will be purely area based, I would have thought stock numbers would have something to do with it aswell.

bob charles

payments are still available for company's farming

bbam

bob charles wrote: »

payments are still available for company's farming

In fairness aren't all EU payments to "trading companies" available publically ?
The big problem I had was when a private individual's payments were made public.

5live

redzerologhlen wrote: »

I find it hard to believe the payment will be purely area based, I would have thought stock numbers would have something to do with it aswell.

I think that the nitrate stocking rates take that into account