**Spoilers** Series 6, Episode 11 - "The God Complex"

pixelburp

Another standalone episode and I've kinda been looking forward to this if I'm honest; Toby Whithouse (he of Being Human fame) is a decent writer & I actually enjoyed The Lodger. It looks like another story with a heavy emphasis on the creepy - there's definitely a tone this series, no question. The only thing I'm a bit cagey on is David Walliams guest-starring as an alien. That might be a bit ... crap.

Clips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhRyyJnL2DY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTkb0A2xPEs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chbCPKCXgNI

allanb49

need to get some beer and rum in for tonight and some nibbles

allanb49

Don't talk to the clown

Jessibelle

I...liked it? I think....
The angels have just got a sight less scary though, also, when the cloister bells were going, did they show the valeyard or was it left ambiguous, I missed that bit

yaines

Okkkaay... Can someone please explain to me what the hell just happened there? Did he leave them because of what the minotaur said? Or because Amy had too much faith in him? I'm assuming that isn't the last we've seen of Rory & Amy, given they still have the whole "Doctor dying/Return of River Song" thing to do... Right?

And also just because she lost faith in him, the minotaur died? Why didn't he just move on to the next victim?

V strange episode. Started off loving it but just became more and more confused as the episode went on... *shakes head*

Would've loved to have known who/what was in the Doctor's room though...

Basq

As a big 'Being Human' fan, I haven't been a huge fan of Toby Whithouse written episodes (i.e School Reunion and Vampires Of Venice) but I really REALLY liked this.

yaines wrote: »

Did he leave them because of what the minotaur said? Or because Amy had too much faith in him? I'm assuming that isn't the last we've seen of Rory & Amy, given they still have the whole "Doctor dying/Return of River Song" thing to do... Right?

I presume it's two fold -

a) he left Amy because he had to break any faith she had in him... a companion isn't probably worth having if she's no faith in The Doctor.
b) to save her.. as below.

yaines wrote: »

Would've loved to have known who/what was in the Doctor's room though...

Hmmm.. I'm guessing Amy's grave - as he did allude to it. But it's all up in the air.

Think this episode needs a second watch.

Big James Corden fan too (rare I know) so looking forward to next week.. big fan of 'The Lodger' too.

yaines

Basq wrote: »

I presume it's two fold -

a) he left Amy because he had to break any faith she had in him... a companion isn't probably worth having if she's no faith in The Doctor.
b) to save her.. as below.

Ok, makes sense I guess.

Basq wrote: »

yaines wrote: »

Would've loved to have known who/what was in the Doctor's room though...

Hmmm.. I'm guessing Amy's grave - as he did allude to it. But it's all up in the air.

Think this episode needs a second watch

When he said "I knew this would happen"? Hmm, I'm not so sure... Maybe it was his own grave? Pure speculation though.

Definitely needs a second watch!

ah i'd say he saw her and rory dead in their graves and that's part of why he left, as well as the nurse telling him about the god complex and him coming to a realisation as he deliberately tried to break her faith in him

and that's also why he said "i knew this would happen"

Manach

I rather enjoyed it, but it was not on the same level as last week's excellent episode. Ironically, I watched directly after evening mass . Next week's looks fun.

Das Kitty

bluewolf wrote: »

ah i'd say he saw her and rory dead in their graves and that's part of why he left, as well as the nurse telling him about the god complex and him coming to a realisation as he deliberately tried to break her faith in him

and that's also why he said "i knew this would happen"

Didn't the Doctor have a companion who died at some point in the original series? When he said "Of course, who else?" gave me the impression that s person was in that room.

Yeah, not best pleased at the prospect of no Amy and Rory next week, that and disliking James Corden and Cybermen is causing me to feel unenthused.

Sigh, hopeful of a pleasant surprise.

EDIT - maybe it was the Master...

mach1982

I think what the doctor saw was himself alone .

Mahatma coat

And also just because she lost faith in him, the minotaur died? Why didn't he just move on to the next victim?

Confidential explained this one fairly well

The Minoatur had been doing the same thing for Centuries, and he was Really Really REALLY Bored with it, however he was also a creature of instinct so whenever food presented itself He ate it, the Doctor broke the cycle by removing Amys faith thus freeing the Minotaur from the endless cycle,the Minotaurs Holodeck then sensed this and shut down.

as an analogy,
Imagine you like Jammy Dodgers (Easy to imagine, who dosent like the odd Jammy dodger:D) So you cruise around the neighbourhood convincing people that you are a lovelyfella and that they should give you Jammy Dodgers, Eventually your neighbours get sick of your constant disruption of their Teabreak to eat all the biccies and lock you away in the Jammy dodger Warehouse, this is fine for a milenia or two as you hapily munch away on an endless Supply of Jammy Dodgers.
However you eventually get bored of eating the same thing Over and Over again, you try to spice them up you twist them youcrumble them you scrape the insides out of a dozen of them and put them all together into one Ginormous Jammy dodger, but you get more and more bored with Jammy dodgers, You swear to yourself that you will never eat another Jammy Dodger as long as you live, but then you get depressed and decide to eat some comfort Food, you guessed it Jammy doders, try and try as you might you cant stop eatint them, then one day someone comes along and takes them all away leaving you in an empty warehouse where you promptly curl up in a ball and cry about the futility of it all until you eentually die.
orsomesuch

Yahew

Good post on this from Digital Spy:

I'm not surprised. I was surprised at how many people in the household I had to explain the Greek minotaur and the maze analogy to. See, that's the problem. Sometimes Moffat writes a crowd pleaser, and sometimes he writes the odd really clever episode for the likes of you and I.

I'm still amazed that anyone thought that the episode was confusing, or that there were elements to the whole thing that people just didn't twig onto. I'm almost tempted to go and tell whomever is confused by this episode to do a little reading on Greek mythology. It should clear everything up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur

That might even do it.

Right, everyone. The idea is that it was a Science-Fantasy story. It was a modern take on an old mythological tale. If you think of how Star Wars is basically just a medieval fairytale setting with a Sci-Fi theme, then you're beginning to understand what Science-Fantasy is.

(I'd like to see them do more of this, to be honest.)

Okay, it goes like this: The minotaur, the original minotaur of Greek myth according to the Who Universe is actually an alien. One of a race of aliens that sets out to find planets with a gullible peoples whom they can each mould to create a faith around them. The minotaur creatures then accept sacrifices, they feed on people, using fear to convert their faith into a form of energy that the minotaur can consume.

In other words, they're abstract apex predators. Very similar in fashion to the weeping angels. Yes, I know, Moffat likes his abstract apex predators, but to be honest? Me too. I love 'em. I wish he'd do more of this sort of thing.

Right, moving on.

The notion here is that in Greek mythology the maze was built as a sort of punishment, to keep the minotaur trapped, and it was 'fed' with the occasional person just to keep it alive, to prolong its suffering.

Now, in this ship (and it was a space ship) you had a prison. It was a prisoner. The doctor couldn't quite understand what was going on there but he had a few clues, and figured it out from there. It was a prison solely for the minotaur. It was an analogy. This was the Science-Fantasy version of the minotaur's maze.

Essentially, some race or other had gotten sick of their minotaur overlord and trapped it in a labyrinthine ship. They wanted to prolong its suffering at the expense of other people, so the ship automatically grabbed people of faith and teleported them on board. It then used the minotaur's own telepathic field to exploit them. To force the minotaur to feed.

The minotaur was operating on instinct, it couldn't stop itself, it had this in-built need to survive, as we all do, so every time the ship provided it with food, it fed, but it hated it. It wanted someone to put an end to this mockery, to provide it with a sense of closure, so that it wouldn't have to torture people any more. It didn't want this life, borne of the blood of others with every new day, to continue.

The Doctor provided it with an ending.

Now, this is doubly clever because in the ending the minotaur wondered if the Doctor was speaking of himself. See, I can't help but wonder if the Doctor's room was the TARDIS itself, with the TARDIS being the Doctor's own labyrinth. Always moving, always changing, and the TARDIS delivering the Doctor to different locations where he might bring new people into his personal labyrinth to feed on.

See, there are a lot of parallels between the Doctor and the minotaur. At least after a fashion.

And this is why after that realisation the Doctor had to break the cycle. Even if it meant a 'forever alone' scenario for him he just had to break the cycle of people dying for him. See, 'praise him' counted as much for the Doctor as it did for the minotaur. But in the end, the Doctor realised just how much he desired to not be praised. He wanted freedom from his own ways. So perhaps he was talking about himself after all.

I found it clever, anyway.

K-9

I think he saw his death, though it was a very short look! Maybe his body burning on the boat?

He does know he died so maybe it's a reminder and a lead in for the last 2 episodes? The Master was my initial thought but his dead body makes more sense.

I'd need to watch it again, it's on BBC3 at 7 tomorrow, there were hints at the past in the episode, the pictures on the wall eg. plus the reference by the Nurse and the Minotaur dying so there was enough hints there to leave it open as a reference to his death.

Overall, I liked it, Walliams was not irritating, Karen was very good again, she really has come on acting wise, I'd really miss her if she actually is gone. Just wish they'd more Weeping Angels and Clowns!

Yahew

I think there is a lot of clues to the "arc" in this one.

Why would Rory have talked about his time on the tardis in the past tense? Anybody have any theories?

BlitzKrieg

Yahew wrote: »

Good post on this from Digital Spy:

I'm not surprised. I was surprised at how many people in the household I had to explain the Greek minotaur and the maze analogy to. See, that's the problem. Sometimes Moffat writes a crowd pleaser, and sometimes he writes the odd really clever episode for the likes of you and I.

I'm still amazed that anyone thought that the episode was confusing, or that there were elements to the whole thing that people just didn't twig onto. I'm almost tempted to go and tell whomever is confused by this episode to do a little reading on Greek mythology. It should clear everything up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur

That might even do it.

Right, everyone. The idea is that it was a Science-Fantasy story. It was a modern take on an old mythological tale. If you think of how Star Wars is basically just a medieval fairytale setting with a Sci-Fi theme, then you're beginning to understand what Science-Fantasy is.

(I'd like to see them do more of this, to be honest.)

Okay, it goes like this: The minotaur, the original minotaur of Greek myth according to the Who Universe is actually an alien. One of a race of aliens that sets out to find planets with a gullible peoples whom they can each mould to create a faith around them. The minotaur creatures then accept sacrifices, they feed on people, using fear to convert their faith into a form of energy that the minotaur can consume.

In other words, they're abstract apex predators. Very similar in fashion to the weeping angels. Yes, I know, Moffat likes his abstract apex predators, but to be honest? Me too. I love 'em. I wish he'd do more of this sort of thing.

except Moffet didnt write this episode.

it was an ok episode. I felt the scene where they were naming all the items under the pictures and much of the early part of the episode was ruined by them explaining right from the get go what was in each room.

I'd perfer personnally if they'd left it til about the midpoint and the doctor goes on one of his really hyper *I'm so smart* displays expositioning it to us only for it to backfire on him when the twist is revealed near the end.


What perked my interest which never really got directly addressed is that the guy from the french planet clearly went into his room but never converted to a *praise him* he was actually defacto immune due to his cowardice survival instinct, yet they never address why he was there in the first place if he didnt have the right stuff. Its not as if he came with someone else (like Rory did.) and I thought it would have been this cowardice that would click it for the doctor (it was what clicked it for me.) rather then Amy.

His fear made perfect sense as well because the weeping angels dont conquer or oppresse so he would naturally fear them.

On what was in the doctor's room. I think death is not really an aspect of his life his or others that would be his greatest fear he gets very emotional over it, and in a few cases quite angry. But he's been running from a lot of things. I'd like to think from the sound effects it might tie back to the time schism back in season 3 (which he says he ran away from) but I dont think it tie to something so specific. I think him being alone or without his tardis (which when he dies you never see his tardis) could be his greatest fear.

Yahew

in the room. Rose?

TheIrishGrover

I liked this episode. Not one I'll keep going back to like others but a great episode. I thought the death of the nurse was particularly well done. Her line about her complete loss of faith was especially brutal and heartbreaking. (I'm not a religuous person but I respect other people's beliefs).
I thought he just saw himself in the room. Not because Rory and Amy were dead but who did he have faith in above all else? Himself. The God complex wasn't Amy's "worship" of The Doctor but his own God Complex, his own worship of himself. Greatest strength and greatest weakness in one and all other psychobabble 101 points etc. I mean ya could go on about his room being Number 11 as a hint but I think that was just a bit of a nudge-nudge-wink-wink.
I didn't quite get why Rory wasn't affected (although it was another allusion to Rory's badassitude). The doc said Rory didn't have any belief or superstition, was it? Well, we all have some belief system. Even if it's simply a belief in science and a rejection of religion? Surely his room could have been God going "Yer wrong mate, 'twas me all along"...... or something....... anyway .....

PS. Am I the only one who gets a bit of a lump in their throat whenever we see Amelia? It always seems to be pretty poignant.

pixelburp

First thoughts having watched it after getting back tonight ...

I don't think it's hard to guess what the Doctor saw in his own room of fear: he saw himself, on his own, in the cavernous TARDIS. It was suggested even back in the RTD days that what the Doctor feared the most was being alone, that he had a constant need to travel in company & impress these people. It even came in as a mini-arc during RTD's last stories (the run of "specials") when we saw that the Doctor on his own lost control of himself without the buffer of a companion.

Afterall, he's near-immortal with the entire universe, start to finish, at his fingertips. What else would an immortal fear except perpetual loneliness? The "Do Not Distrub" sign I felt sealed it - using the motif of a hotel that sign carries obvious weight & meaning: the Doctor left on his own, undisturbed forever, because he burned too many bridges and lost too many friends.

God.

You know, sometimes I get a bit fed up with this line of the Doctor being a tragic traveller, always doomed to push away those he loves & ruin people's lives. At times I wonder if the character's new complexity's is just edging him a little bit too away from the older iteration, and not in a good way. Venusian Akido this is not.

I still enjoyed the episode (yet another one conveniently set within very empty / spartan confines. Gotta love the budget cuts), and the central mystery was quite compelling in its own way. The nurse character was great, even if her fate was sealed the moment the Doctor realised what a great fit for the TARDIS she was (See, there we go again - The Doctor as a poisonous figure). I still hated Wallaims though, and the script was a little bit too on the nose with race-of-cowards idea. It started off unfunny, and just went downhill.

As for everything revolving around the Minotaur / Maze, Doctor Who was always strongest in the past when it ... "Borrowed" inspiration from myth, legend, and other classic stories. Nice to see them do it again with the legend of the Minotaur.

Extra kudos for making them related to the Nimon - haha; some nerve to link back to one of the worst old-Who stories ever produced.

The Next Time trailer leaves me utterly confused though - it seems like a filler episode, with a temporary companion & an invasion-of-the-week storyline. It was also quite jarring that having ended on a downer, we then see the Doctor mucking about in a toy shop. I don't mind Corden (probably because I've not seen any of his other stuff that seems to divide people), but am confused how this fits in with the overall arc.

Edit: and yes, +1 to Young Amy still leaving a lump in the throat. That image of her sitting on her little suitcase still kicks me in the gut when I see it. Poor wee Amy

Lirange

That was a wonderful scene between Amy and the Doctor. Matt Smith was brilliant there. That scene alone made the episode for me. So much that had long been simmering underneath the surface finally bubbled up a bit.

Banjo Fella

I really enjoyed this episode. I liked how the hotel turned out to be a complex built to imprison a god, and I liked how the title related more to the Doctor than the baddie. Rita was lovely, so it was sad (if predictable, after the Doctor shoved a red shirt over her head by suggesting she could come with him) to see her go. Rory was his usual bad-ass self, of course - doesn't need any faith, doesn't need any fears! Also, the ending really got to me... surely this can't be the last of the Ponds? Needs more Pond.

I think we can be fairly sure that the Doctor saw himself in Room 11. We could hear the cloister bell as the Doctor stood at the entrance to his room, and if the Complex's rooms tried to make the nightmares within as realistic as possible, the bell would have sounded due to some paradox; like having two doctors in the same TARDIS. I wonder why he saw himself... is it because he's scared of being alone, or is it because he's scared of himself? Both make sense within the Doctor's character, but it'd be interesting to know which one scares him the most.

This episode was really nicely shot, wasn't it? A lot of the episodes have been gorgeous this season. Amongst all the other beautiful shots, there was a pretty deliberate one of the Doctor's shoes in this episode, wasn't there? I wonder if that was a clue for some Ganger-Doctor related shenanigans that might become clear as the finale approaches. If the Doctor we saw here was somehow a Ganger, it'd make the Room 11 scene a bit less insightful, as a Ganger's fear is probably of being replaced by his "real" counterpart.

pixelburp

Oh and another thing occurs after my own previous comments - from watching the "Next Time" trailer, and seeing the Doctor has changed his coat again - I'm wondering if we've been watching two Doctors all this time.

He wore that new coat in Let's Kill Hitler, up until he disappeared briefly & then returned wearing the tuxedo. Now the coat's back again in this upcoming episode (and he seems in much better humour too).

So I'm wondering if there's been some wibbly-wobbly going on & there are two Doctors knocking about the place - with one of them being the guy who travels around for 200 years on his own before getting offed by that astronaut. Of course the one from yesterday's ep is also the one (I think) who was given all those remaining regenerations by River so perhaps that plays into it too.

Oh Lordy, look at me - I'm trying to rationalise the meanings of a fashion choice.

I'm also wondering that if the last few episodes have been trying to create an arc of de-constructing the Doctor's own God Complex, perhaps it's the Doctor who shoots himself. The second version, hidden in the astronaut suit (which seemed to have some advanced tech in it anyway), kills himself so he can go back to being just a random anonymous traveller again, and not this mighty legend.

Yahew

pixelburp wrote: »

Oh Lordy, look at me - I'm trying to rationalise the meanings of a fashion choice.

It does tend to mean something.

Killer_banana

I got a bit confused at times but overall a very good episode.

When the Doctor said 'Who else?' when looking into his room my immediate thought was the Master but after reading most posts I realise I was being stupid and it is most likely himself, all alone. I kind of do hope we get a flashback at some point to confirm this but that's just me, I like everything to be perfectly clear.

The scene when the Doctor was breaking Amy's faith in him was heart breaking. I liked the little touch of him calling her Amy Williams.

I'm torn about this possibly being the last of Rory and Amy. Firstly what with Melody/River still being out there it seems like the wrong time. I know Rory and Amy got to 'raise' her when she was their childhood friend but it still seems a bit strange to settle for that without exhausting every possible route to find a rescue their daughter.. Also I love Rory and Amy as companions so I don't want to see them go just yet. On the other hand it was a very fitting exit, the Doctor saving them from him so if it's a fakeout that'd ruin it in a sense. We'll just have to see I guess.

Banjo Fella

After watching it again, there was one bit I was particularly confused about... what were the fish about? The Doctor asked Amy to take the bowl of fish with her after they confronted the minotaur, and later on Gibbis snuck off to eat some of them. Did we witness the untimely demise of Jim The Fish? :eek:

campo

I think the clown was in the doctors room he did say in night terrors to the boys father that it was understandable that he was afraid of clowns

Doctor DooM

I'm in Germany living in a hotel... Haven't quite gotten around to seeing the episode but I don't know how much longer I can keep from reading this thread so I better find a way tonight

I thought some of you might enjoy the thought of me scrabbling around Germany like some human shaped spaceship full of tiny people or a raving mad half time lord woman thing.

Cormic

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Imagine you like Jammy Dodgers...

Good analogy. But now I want a Jammy Dodger

Sonics2k

Great episode, classic Who style really.

Dash of terror mixed in with laughter and a few heart-breaking moments.

I was actually recently discussing with some friends about Amy and Rory, and how I think it's maybe time for them to move on, after all, they've been with the Doctor for a long time now.
I am quite conflicted though, Amy is a great companion, and Rory has really grown on me as a character and companion since his first few appearances.

As for inside the room and the Doctor's greatest fear, 3 things occurred to me.
1) The Master. Ruled this out straight away, as he's not his greatest fear.
2) Rose. Also ruled out for a few reasons. This Doctor never met her, and she's off in another dimension with her Doctor.
3) Himself. All alone.

Cyndaquil

For some reason the ending reminded me a bit of Tennant's last few episodes, choosing to travel without a companion, knowing that his death is coming, returning to the Tardis sombre and alone (I thought of the ending to The Waters of Mars and, to a lesser extent, Journey's End.. There was a tense feeling about the final scene. Kind of puts Ten's final episodes into perspective though. Back then he was unnerved by the prospect of his incarnation's death, but at least he knew there was the possibility of regeneration. 11 is facing his complete death, with seemingly no chance of survival or regeneration. Yet he seems to be far more brave about it that 10 was. I'm not trying to "10 bash", I like his portrayal too, but it's something that occurred to me.

Anyway, I somehow don't think this will turn out to be the final goodbye to Amy and Rory, just as I think deep down we all know The Doctor won't really be killed off.

As for what The Doctor saw in the room, I suspect it might be his companions laying dead before him. (Think about his comments about him not wanting to end up in front of Amy's dead body, or Rory's.). I think we can rule out Rose at this stage, but Amy and Rory's dead bodies could represent a fear of losing his companions in general, as opposed to specifically Amy and Rory.

Yahew

Sonics2k wrote: »

2) Rose. Also ruled out for a few reasons. This Doctor never met her, and she's off in another dimension with her Doctor.

Surely this Doctor did meet her. Doctors keep their memories after transformations.

Mr.Saturn

I do enjoy the contrast of the RTD-era mystification of the Doctor, or at least, the idea of how man makes its own gods, and the 11th Doctor then
actively trying to disuade any such notions.

Only two episodes left 'til Xmas and we're only getting 45 minutes for the finale, will it be enough to wrap up everything and leave some tasters out
for what's to come next year?

aidan_walsh

This Doctor never met her, and she's off in another dimension with her Doctor.

In "Let's Kill Hitler" The Doctor expressed his guilt over what had happened with her when the TARDIS showed her image as the visual interface. The Doctor is still the same man who travelled with her.

I enjoyed it for the most part, even if I was a bit distracted by a few (to my mind) very put of place musical cues borrowed from last year. I'll have to watch it again to make my mind up properly though.

Sonics2k

aidan_walsh wrote: »

In "Let's Kill Hitler" The Doctor expressed his guilt over what had happened with her when the TARDIS showed her image as the visual interface. The Doctor is still the same man who travelled with her.

I enjoyed it for the most part, even if I was a bit distracted by a few (to my mind) very put of place musical cues borrowed from last year. I'll have to watch it again to make my mind up properly though.

Oh I know he's still the same man, but when I said "This Doctor" I meant this incarnation of him.

As we know from the past he's still essentially the same man, but with slight differences in his personality.

I was more trying to convey the point that once he's regenerated, he's not very likely to think of a past companion of one of his darkest fears.

yaines

Yahew wrote: »

Good post on this from Digital Spy:

I'm not surprised. I was surprised at how many people in the household I had to explain the Greek minotaur and the maze analogy to. See, that's the problem. Sometimes Moffat writes a crowd pleaser, and sometimes he writes the odd really clever episode for the likes of you and I.

Good post. Definitely explains it all. Once you get over the incredibly patronising tone of course... I think I preferred the jammy dodgers explanation. :-)

Anyway, there is no way it was Rose he saw. All references to RTD's era have been fleeting so I really can't see Moffat bringing her in for something like that. I actually agree now that it was probably Amy/Rory's graves. I reckon he'd cope with his own death but the thoughts of someone else he was close to dying because of danger he'd put them in? Not good... Would also explain why he left them so abruptly at the end. Plus Amy's comment that he was "saving them".

Is next weeks ep another standalone? I need some arc info stat!

YeatsCounty

What did the Doctor see in his room? I like imagine that it's himself, alone in the TARDIS.....but having actually turned into a warrior as has been alluded to this season (his destruction of the Silents by proxy, wiping out the 12th Cyber legion) and earlier (E.G. the destruction of Skaro). The cloister bell ringing could be a distressed TARDIS which has been turned into a war machine. Most likely complete nonsense, but the cloister bell tolling & the fact that an unknown army has been raised against the Doctor got me thinking.

Really enjoyed this episode & am looking forward to the return of Corden next week. The Lodger was a fun romp last time.


PS: pixelburp, your two Doctors idea is intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I do love the speculation about what was in room 11, when not even the writer knew!

Doctor DooM

Well, watching that alone in a foreign country at 1 am while missing your girlfriend was perhaps not the cleverest idea I've ever had

Good episode though.

Gotta laugh at the guy quoted above being all superior about knowing about the minotaur and the labyrnth.

Looks like they're going for the old "bring the character to their lowest point" technique thingy before the big finale. It's a pity Karen Gillen

confirmed Amy will be in the next series

already as it means I kinda have an idea how this will pan out, I'd rather not know that much.

pixelburp

yaines wrote: »

[...]

Is next weeks ep another standalone? I need some arc info stat!

Spoilered comments about next week's adventure, just in case

Apparently yes it's a standalone episode but may lead into the events of the finale: apparently the writer (Gareth Roberts iirc) hinted that the Doctor in next week's story is the one from episode 1 - the version of the Doctor who had been traveling for 200 years on his own, prior to getting bumped-off. That he's doing one last good deed before meeting his fate. So knowing that, I'm not sure how it fits into my theory that the coats signify two Doctors. I still think it's going to turn out to be the Doctor inside the Astronaut's suit.

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

Spoilered comments about next week's adventure, just in case

Apparently yes it's a standalone episode but may lead into the events of the finale: apparently the writer (Gareth Roberts iirc) hinted that the Doctor in next week's story is the one from episode 1 - the version of the Doctor who had been traveling for 200 years on his own, prior to getting bumped-off. That he's doing one last good deed before meeting his fate. So knowing that, I'm not sure how it fits into my theory that the coats signify two Doctors. I still think it's going to turn out to be the Doctor inside the Astronaut's suit.

I've been thinking knowing how Moffat works now you could be very right about the coats, there's 2 Doctor's, one old and young, and I would guess the young Doctor will have to kill himself to prevent the old one from happening or something similar (delibrately aping the situation with old amy).

Total fan theory, but if your spoiler is true it does look like they're heading down this route.

KenHy

Will someone explain this coat theory to me?

In which episodes is he supposed to be "Young Doctor" and in which is he the "Old Doctor".

Mr.Saturn

Anybody else get a 'Curse of Fenric' vibe when the Doctor was trying to crush Amy's faith in him?

CramCycle

I still think it was him in the room as Amy asks him "Who do time lords worship?" and he looks really uncomfortable and proceeds to ignore the question. They worship themselves, they all have a god complex, they have little/no fear in almost every situation as they always believe themselves to be capable of thinking their way out of it because IMO they believe no situation to be too much or too complex for them. Even a situation created by another timelord, the doctor clearly believes himself to be superior to all timelords.

The only time they look uncomfortable/doubtful is when they have been outwitted (even if only temporarily).

The other option was the Tardis, as it seemingly knows all that is possibly going to happen (alluded to in Neil Gaimans episode when talking about future rooms he will need I think), it is the only thing that really has any control over them.

Also the thing about the two Doctors causing a paradox doesn't fit well as there have been several two or more doctor stories, one even had five trapped by the Master IIRCC.

ríomhaire

CramCycle wrote: »

I still think it was him in the room as Amy asks him "Who do time lords worship?" and he looks really uncomfortable and proceeds to ignore the question. They worship themselves, they all have a god complex, they have little/no fear in almost every situation as they always believe themselves to be capable of thinking their way out of it because IMO they believe no situation to be too much or too complex for them. Even a situation created by another timelord, the doctor clearly believes himself to be superior to all timelords.

Well he did kill all of them. The first thing I thought of the Doctor's room was himself/the Valeyard/the Dreamlord (the Dreamlord had been in my head because I'd just watched Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy the night before). My girlfriend thought it might be River but I'm not sure why. I though at the end that the room with Amy waiting might be the Doctor's but then I rewatched and had a look for the do not disturb sign and it's a different room.

The thing about it being someone's grave is interesting but remember he says "who else?". If it were a grave I'd say it would be "what else?" not who else.

CramCycle

ríomhaire wrote: »

Well he did kill all of them. The first thing I thought of the Doctor's room was himself/the Valeyard/the Dreamlord (the Dreamlord had been in my head because I'd just watched Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy the night before). My girlfriend thought it might be River but I'm not sure why. I though at the end that the room with Amy waiting might be the Doctor's but then I rewatched and had a look for the do not disturb sign and it's a different room.

The thing about it being someone's grave is interesting but remember he says "who else?". If it were a grave I'd say it would be "what else?" not who else.

He wouldn't really praise the valeyard though, if anything he despises him for being part of him. Although thinking about it, the dreamlord and the valeyard could be one in the same (sort of), its been awhile since I seen the old episodes, must go back and give them a look through.

My point being, in context of the episode, it has to be someone (he says who) he respects or has faith in. Suppose it could be the Valeyard as he has faith he will become him one day but it is a big stretch IMO.

I still think himself or the Tardis (she chose him). My money is moving towards the Tardis.

CramCycle

Maybe one of the Time Guardians (not the black guardian) but possibly the white guardian?

Sorry just popped into my head while we were talking about the old stuff.

yaines

pixelburp wrote: »

Spoilered comments about next week's adventure, just in case

Apparently yes it's a standalone episode but may lead into the events of the finale: apparently the writer (Gareth Roberts iirc) hinted that the Doctor in next week's story is the one from episode 1 - the version of the Doctor who had been traveling for 200 years on his own, prior to getting bumped-off. That he's doing one last good deed before meeting his fate. So knowing that, I'm not sure how it fits into my theory that the coats signify two Doctors. I still think it's going to turn out to be the Doctor inside the Astronaut's suit.

Thanks for that. And I'm very intrigued by your "two Doctors" theory. I think you could be onto something there! Although, I don't see how it is himself in the astronaut suit, seeing as in Lets Kill Hitler, the peeps in the Teselecta knew that it was River Song who killed the Doctor.

riomhaire wrote:

The thing about it being someone's grave is interesting but remember he says "who else?". If it were a grave I'd say it would be "what else?" not who else.

That's a good point too, although I don't think its the TARDIS. Therefore, I am reverting to my original thought that it was himself that he saw. As in the only thing he's afraid of is himself. Or maybe the astronaut? Although, he doesn't know about that, does he? He knows when but not how.

ríomhaire

CramCycle wrote: »

He wouldn't really praise the valeyard though, if anything he despises him for being part of him. Although thinking about it, the dreamlord and the valeyard could be one in the same (sort of), its been awhile since I seen the old episodes, must go back and give them a look through.

My point being, in context of the episode, it has to be someone (he says who) he respects or has faith in. Suppose it could be the Valeyard as he has faith he will become him one day but it is a big stretch IMO.

I still think himself or the Tardis (she chose him). My money is moving towards the Tardis.

I think you misunderstood. The rooms show you the thing you're absolutely terrified of so that you dig down and find your faith, which the minotaur then steals.

CramCycle

ríomhaire wrote: »

I think you misunderstood. The rooms show you the thing you're absolutely terrified of so that you dig down and find your faith, which the minotaur then steals.

Correct a mundo, I was asleep earlier, apologies, still am kind of asleep. Too late to go back and edit it now though

Banjo Fella

Not sure if this was suggested yet, but maybe the "who else?" line could be intended as a fun bit of wordplay? Perhaps he saw the 12th Doctor - i.e. an entirely different "Who". I'm not sure how he'd recognise a future version of himself, though... I mean, 11 didn't recognise his new reflection in The Eleventh Hour, and 5 didn't recognise 10 in Time Crash. Whoever it was, he saw them standing inside the TARDIS, so I suppose he could infer it from that.

It's cool that they left it so open-ended, offers a nice opportunity to discuss people's different interpretations of the Doctor's character.

Mr.Saturn

No one's made anything of the fact that the last thing that remained of the hotel at the end, was the the 'do not disturb' sign from room no.11? I thought that was interesting.