substitution issues

bang2

just read Glensmans story , same crap different area .

I put in for a substitution .308 for a .308, you would think there would be no bother .

weeks passed nothing in the post, called and asked to speak to super, got fobbed off for about 3 weeks, saying it would be next week , called firearms policy unit - they say they cant do anything till I speak to the super. Tried the super again , was told he's in his office but wont take the call, this is now 6 weeks gone and one week before the new season. so I told the secretary to tell him if he wont chat to me I'll have no choice but to go through the firearms policy unit. she put me on hold, then he came on the phone like a raging bull saying that there is no way I'll get a substitution unless he agrees firearms policy unit or not!!, he wasnt telling me anything I didn't know. when he stopped ranting I told him that my issue was that I was waiting 6+ weeks for a process that was 2 weeks in the commissioners guidelines , His next response, "they are only guidelines".
I've only had this landed on my desk today he said. I replied maybe so but I got a letter 4 weeks ago saying it was in process, and have been told weekly from your firearms officers that its on your desk but not signed , his tone came down to a dull roar, I have a problem with one part of your application he said, what's that I said, I don't want to talk about it over the phone he said, "you know what it's like anybody could be listening" I said i don't mind tell me what's up. No you'll have to make an appointment, so we did , went to see him. He said I have an issue with the moderator you want, I said I didn't apply for a moderator, he said it says here you do , - he was looking at a previous application that was turned down by the previous Super!! 2 years ago, he had every piece of paperwork laid out on the table for the last 20 years.
I said do we still have an impasse, he said it says here you wanted the moderator to lower the noise when you are shooting targets on your own land, I said yes , he said you are not allowed to shoot targets except at a licensed range. couldn't argue with him there ( wasnt going to go into the fact that it was only zeroing). I said this current gun is a deer gun , for stalking only and I am not requiring a moderator or shooting targets. he said ok then I'll grant you your license, DUH!!!

on the way out he said by the way both firearms officers recommended the substution to me ....

Anyway the point of this story that you might not think about when going for a subs is , it's not automatic , you are giving them an opportunity to take your firearm away. and give your self plenty of time ...

rowa

The problem there is the application form that was drawn up in a mad rush by the doj or whoever after ahern had meddled with the firearms act, the guards are snowed under with paper.

Cass

bang2 wrote: »

Anyway the point of this story that you might not think about when going for a subs is , it's not automatic , you are giving them an opportunity to take your firearm away. and give your self plenty of time ...

That is one seriously messy situation to have had to deal with. The only problem there seemed to be the Super's attitude.

However that aside, a substitution is not automatic. You are correct there. However it is not a re-application, as such. You already have permission for the firearm you have and the caliber it is. You are merely asking for a new firearm of the same caliber.

If refused a substitution you still keep your original firearm/license. They cannot take that from you, unless of course you have done something to warrant it in which case a substitution is the least of your worries. Remember the Gardai can at ANY time revoke a firearms license for a valid reason. They do not need to wait until the re-application time comes around.

bang2

If refused a substitution you still keep your original firearm/license. They cannot take that from you,

you see thats the part he was eluding too, he seemed to be trying to find something not to give me a "high power rifle" back I assumed he didn't even need a reason , my old rifle was traded in and my new one was in the shop.
season had started..

wasnt a nice scenario.
another of his comments " the previous super may have handed out AK47's but the same wont happen with me"

anyway I wont be changing the rifle too soon again in that area.

Cass

bang2 wrote: »

you see thats the part he was eluding too, he seemed to be trying to find something not to give me a "high power rifle" back I assumed he didn't even need a reason ,

I had a similar issue a few years back shortly before the introduction of the new license system. I was granted a license for a new handgun, but refused the import. I went into the station and had my license changed back to my original firearm details. When the new system kicked in i was told that i could not have a new license as i had a new firearm. Long story short.

• The C/Super thought i had the new firearm so their records were not up to date.
• He said i could not simply "take back" my old licnese. I told him that as i was refused i never actually "lost" the old one simply not granted the new one.

long story short(er) i got the license. Know your rights (as such).

my old rifle was traded in and my new one was in the shop.
season had started..

This is why i tell everyone to make sure you have an ironclad deal with the dealer. ie Deposit ONLY, thats refundable ONLY on refusal. Not on change of mind.

another of his comments " the previous super may have handed out AK47's but the same wont happen with me"

Ask him can you still apply for one.:rolleyes::D

anyway I wont be changing the rifle too soon again in that area.

Pity these type of Gardai tarnish the reputation of the rest, because in all honestly for the most part the Gardai do a decent job. We only hear of the crap so it seems more prevelant/widespread than it actually is.

kermitpwee

Ezridax wrote: »

That is one seriously messy situation to have had to deal with. The only problem there seemed to be the Super's attitude.

However that aside, a substitution is not automatic. You are correct there. However it is not a re-application, as such. You already have permission for the firearm you have and the caliber it is. You are merely asking for a new firearm of the same caliber.

If refused a substitution you still keep your original firearm/license. They cannot take that from you, unless of course you have done something to warrant it in which case a substitution is the least of your worries. Remember the Gardai can at ANY time revoke a firearms license for a valid reason. They do not need to wait until the re-application time comes around.

I am waiting 3 weeks for a substitution on a shotgun, if I am refused what happens to my old licence when my gun has all ready been traded and sold to someone else!

rowa

Surely under the law you are substituting one non restricted .22-.308 bolt action rifle for another non restricted .22-.308 bolt action rifle and it should be a straightforward process, otherwise what is the point of the whole restricted/non restricted carry on ?

Cass

kermitpwee wrote: »

I am waiting 3 weeks for a substitution on a shotgun, if I am refused what happens to my old licence when my gun has all ready been traded and sold to someone else!

Thats a messy one.

Realistically you have no option. Once you put in for a sub you are technically cancelling your old license and getting a new onr for another firearm. Your old license would stand in effect, but you would no longer have possession of the firearm.

What you would get is a phone call from the FO of the person that bought the shotgun, because your license stays "live" for 14 days after a sub to accomodate any changes of mind, or other factors. So technically you are the primary license holdr and the person trying to buy the shotgun would not be able to license it until your license "lapsed" or expired. As you would not have a new subbed license it will not lapse or expire so the person buying the shotgun may not be able to license it.


Quick exampl. I traded my shotgun against my .223. I had to submit a new application for the .223, and a sub from my shotgun to the Father's. I got a call tens days after doing the deal. It was the FO of the lad buying my shotgun. She said i was still licensed on the shotgun. I told her that i had received the receipt letter (for the sub) 5 days prior to talking to her so it would be a couple of weeks before the license was out of my name. It went through, obviously, as she never rang me back after.

kermitpwee

Ezridax wrote: »

Thats a messy one.

Realistically you have no option. Once you put in for a sub you are technically cancelling your old license and getting a new onr for another firearm. Your old license would stand in effect, but you would no longer have possession of the firearm.

What you would get is a phone call from the FO of the person that bought the shotgun, because your license stays "live" for 14 days after a sub to accomodate any changes of mind, or other factors. So technically you are the primary license holdr and the person trying to buy the shotgun would not be able to license it until your license "lapsed" or expired. As you would not have a new subbed license it will not lapse or expire so the person buying the shotgun may not be able to license it.


Quick exampl. I traded my shotgun against my .223. I had to submit a new application for the .223, and a sub from my shotgun to the Father's. I got a call tens days after doing the deal. It was the FO of the lad buying my shotgun. She said i was still licensed on the shotgun. I told her that i had received the receipt letter (for the sub) 5 days prior to talking to her so it would be a couple of weeks before the license was out of my name. It went through, obviously, as she never rang me back after.

Thanks very informative post. I can't understand the delay with my substitution. I am vetted every year due to my job, I am as clean as a whistle, they are saying that I need to the fill out the full form for the substitution whuich is incorrect. Then when I offer to do this they say it's ok and that the sergeant has it, then later they tell me that the form is missing details but they won't take any more information off me.

I don't know what to do at this stage. My uncle left his sub in on a saturday and had the licence tuesday and he knows knobody in the station(different district) before anyone asks. I have heard that the Super in my area is anti gun but this is a joke tbh.

Sorry to the op for the rant my blood is boiling,

Cass

I wouldn't get too concerned just yet.

The fact is that while a sub is not automatic or an entitlement the majority, 95% i'd guess, go through without a problem. You have been vetted and passed to own and possess this type of firearm already. The only consideration a Super has to make is have you done anything to warrant a revocation of the license, and is the new gun being sought still within the boundaries of your current license. In other words the new shotgun is not a fully auto, 100 shot type firearm. (exaggerating there but you get the idea).

While the 2-3 week substitution timescale is a guideline a Super can take as much time to decide. Most times it takes this long its down to the Super being swamped with other Garda business and firearms applications simply don't register with them as being as important.


Its a pain, but give it a bit of time.

kermitpwee

Ezridax wrote: »

I wouldn't get too concerned just yet.

The fact is that while a sub is not automatic or an entitlement the majority, 95% i'd guess, go through without a problem. You have been vetted and passed to own and possess this type of firearm already. The only consideration a Super has to make is have you done anything to warrant a revocation of the license, and is the new gun being sought still within the boundaries of your current license. In other words the new shotgun is not a fully auto, 100 shot type firearm. (exaggerating there but you get the idea).

While the 2-3 week substitution timescale is a guideline a Super can take as much time to decide. Most times it takes this long its down to the Super being swamped with other Garda business and firearms applications simply don't register with them as being as important.

Its a pain, but give it a bit of time.

Thanks. The thing thats annoying me is that nobody in the station has a clue what is going on. I keep wondering are they missing info as one garda tells me it is being held up as it is missing info. Then another garda tells me they have the info. I am not making this up, 4 different garda's have told me conflicting stories.
Another Garda asked me did I work with one of her mates. I said I do and that I knew him well, she said that if I had handed the application to her she would have put it straight through but she couldn't now as another lady was dealing with it now.
Tbh it is total madness, I have got to the point that I want to give them a few weeks to sort it out but am reluctant to in case they come back to me in october telling me that they need more information.
If I don't have it by november I will be admitted to a mental home:mad:

bang2

I went thought the same bull****, must have been a bad year at templemore.
hope it works out soon for ya. frustrating.:mad:

Bang2

kermitpwee wrote: »

Thanks. The thing thats annoying me is that nobody in the station has a clue what is going on. I keep wondering are they missing info as one garda tells me it is being held up as it is missing info. Then another garda tells me they have the info. I am not making this up, 4 different garda's have told me conflicting stories.
Another Garda asked me did I work with one of her mates. I said I do and that I knew him well, she said that if I had handed the application to her she would have put it straight through but she couldn't now as another lady was dealing with it now.
Tbh it is total madness, I have got to the point that I want to give them a few weeks to sort it out but am reluctant to in case they come back to me in october telling me that they need more information.
If I don't have it by november I will be admitted to a mental home:mad:

Cass

Off the top of my head all thats needed for a sub is;

• Name
• Address
• New firearm details
• Old firearm details
• Tick the security box
• Tick the substitution box (NOT THE NEW APPLCIATION BOX)
• Dealers details
• Dealers receipt attached to FCA1
• Club/range/land details

Details not required are;

• Referees
• Photo
• Medical Details
• Competence cert

The details can vary. As in some districts ask for photos, medical info, etc. ie- a full application.

I would make an appointment to see the Firearms Officer. not the person filling in for him/her, but the actual FO. Locate the original, but have another filled out FCA1 with you. This normally prompts them to find the original. Do not be "snotty" bt assert the fact that the guidelines state all sub should be done in a timely manner. If they say its only guidelines, be polite, but remind them that they are best practices as advised by the Garda Commissioner on the best application of the Firearms Act.

It may p*** you off, but politeness will get you further than rudeness/abruptness.

Do not let it run till October let alone November.

Two questions.

1. Have you gotten a receipt to say they have received your application?
2. Are you sure its a sub you applied for and not a full application?

bang2

It may p*** you off, but politeness will get you further than rudeness/abruptness.

true but after weeks of being polite and getting nowhere a sterner approach might be needed

Do not let it run till October let alone November.

definitely not keep at them



[*]Have you gotten a receipt to say they have received your application?

I got a receipt in the post but it was the same one as a full license application, giving them a full three months to look at it. I rang immediately upon receipt to query it and the FO told me it was standard issue and that the sub would be dealt with within a week, what a joke that was.

bang2

As you can see i still cant work out the multi quote

kermitpwee

Ezridax wrote: »

Off the top of my head all thats needed for a sub is;

• Name
• Address
• New firearm details
• Old firearm details
• Tick the security box
• Tick the substitution box (NOT THE NEW APPLCIATION BOX)
• Dealers details
• Dealers receipt attached to FCA1
• Club/range/land details

Details not required are;

• Referees
• Photo
• Medical Details
• Competence cert

The details can vary. As in some districts ask for photos, medical info, etc. ie- a full application.

I would make an appointment to see the Firearms Officer. not the person filling in for him/her, but the actual FO. Locate the original, but have another filled out FCA1 with you. This normally prompts them to find the original. Do not be "snotty" bt assert the fact that the guidelines state all sub should be done in a timely manner. If they say its only guidelines, be polite, but remind them that they are best practices as advised by the Garda Commissioner on the best application of the Firearms Act.

It may p*** you off, but politeness will get you further than rudeness/abruptness.

Do not let it run till October let alone November.


Two questions.

1. Have you gotten a receipt to say they have received your application?
2. Are you sure its a sub you applied for and not a full application?

Thanks. I have been very polite so far and would never be rude. I have put in all the necessary info. In my humble opinion if they are looking for extra information then they are going outside what they should be doing and holding up due process.

The station does not have a dedicated FO, that is the line I have been spun anyway. I have been told that who ever gets the application deals with it.

It was a sub I filled out, I have filled out many forms for my uncles and know what I am doing.

In my station you do not get a receipt when you submit your application, you get a receipt in the post( which can take close to 3 months to get) and two days letter you will get your licence. This is the way it has always been in the past.

Cass

bang2 wrote: »

I got a receipt in the post but it was the same one as a full license application, .

Thats the way the substitutions are done. You get the receipt like the full application, but usually its followed within 5 days or so by the actual license. No grant letter as you already have already been granted it. (old license)

bang2 wrote: »

As you can see i still cant work out the multi quote

Click on this symbol on every post you wish to quote and when you get to the last post you want to quote just click the quote button. All posts will appear in the text box, and simply delete any part of a quote you don't want to use and reply to the rest.

kermitpwee wrote: »

The station does not have a dedicated FO, that is the line I have been spun anyway. I have been told that who ever gets the application deals with it.

I know some stations have no FO, others have a "liaison" Garda that takes all applications and passes them onto a more dedicated person, but none at all. Finf that a bit hard to believe. There is a certain amount of training required to be a firearms officer so i doubt a station would have all members trained up. If they were then anyone of them could have dealt with this already. Kinda contradicting themselves on two fronts there.

In my station you do not get a receipt when you submit your application, you get a receipt in the post( which can take close to 3 months to get) and two days letter you will get your licence. This is the way it has always been in the past.

Same in most places. The receipt is usually generated when your details are entered into PULSE. Sure by that stage your application has been granted. Hence the reason why most people view the receipt as a grant letter.:rolleyes:


Another "hiccup" in our beloved new system.

freddieot

My advice to anyone, (lesson learned the hard way), is to insist on a reciept for anything you give AGS.

If you don't want a possible face to face issue with the desk officer then send it by Registered Post.

Obviously some people who get good treatment, without having to fight for it, can balance that out against their 'relationship' with the local guys as they may feel it's not necessary or might cause bad feeling. Thats a personal call of course.

kermitpwee

6 week update, still no licence.
I was rang by a Garda last week and told I would have the licence this week. Today I called in and met the Garda that took my application for the substitution. The garda said that the Sergeant had my application and that they had looked into my background and that there were no problems, she then told me where I worked and that they knew I was 100% clean.

I asked what the problem was and the Garda said well it's up to the Sergeant when he puts its through but I assure you that you will have it in the next 3weeks.
All I can say is WTF:mad:

bang2

It's crazy and nothing you'll be able to do with it.
frustrating .

can you not deal direct with the super?

kermitpwee wrote: »

6 week update, still no licence.
I was rang by a Garda last week and told I would have the licence this week. Today I called in and met the Garda that took my application for the substitution. The garda said that the Sergeant had my application and that they had looked into my background and that there were no problems, she then told me where I worked and that they knew I was 100% clean.

I asked what the problem was and the Garda said well it's up to the Sergeant when he puts its through but I assure you that you will have it in the next 3weeks.
All I can say is WTF:mad:

kermitpwee

bang2 wrote: »

It's crazy and nothing you'll be able to do with it.
frustrating .

can you not deal direct with the super?

I don't want to contact the Super in case the Sergeant holds it up even more when he hears that I have gone behind his back. It's a double edge sword as far as I can see. I have heard through the grapevine that our Super is anti gun so don't see the point in contacting him. 6 weeks waiting and 4weeks of the season gone:(

bang2

I was in the same boat, and the super told me he was very "finecky" about guns himself,

It seemed to me that the sgt's were **** scared of him,it seemed to me that they did most of the holding up. Although the super was visibly upset at being challenged and the threat of using the firearms policy unit, after a face to face meeting and a discussion the matter was resolved.

you'll have to make the call based on you gut, but I hope you dont get the response that i did from the super after 6+ weeks ( this has just landed on my desk) after being told every week it was on his desk by the sgt's
Good luck.

kermitpwee wrote: »

I don't want to contact the Super in case the Sergeant holds it up even more when he hears that I have gone behind his back. It's a double edge sword as far as I can see. I have heard through the grapevine that our Super is anti gun so don't see the point in contacting him. 6 weeks waiting and 4weeks of the season gone:(

johngalway

Ezridax wrote: »

Ask him can you still apply for one.:rolleyes::D

With a silencer

bazza888

im putting in for a 22airrifle i asked for 3000 pellets,i bet the license will come back with 200 on it because they wont realise they come in tins of 500.

kildare.17hmr

bazza888 wrote: »

im putting in for a 22airrifle i asked for 3000 pellets,i bet the license will come back with 200 on it because they wont realise they come in tins of 500.

stick a note in with the application and state your case for the amount you need lad

bazza888

yeah ill try it,im getting it for rats and stuff round the permissions hopefully it might lead to more permissions for the big guns if i can do vermin in the yards and sheds,may have a shotgun again after xmas,my mates leaving here he has a few shotties at home said i could have the 12g side by side if i wanted.

kildare.17hmr

happy days lad!