would you buy a pup from this guy?

trixyben

a mate of mine is mad into golden retrievers he has 6 of them and i must say they are lovely dogs, i have a very boisterios staffie and i take him over to socialise nearly everyday and they take to him very well...i know they are all ikc reg and are all hip and eye scored etc, he dosent breed them at all they are all just pets

just after reading another post about buying pups from rebutable breeders a conversation i had came to mind i had with him last week, he was saying how he would love to set up a kennel were he would keep and breed his quality bred dogs, as he was saying there is far to many back yard breeders selling very bad pups in terms of health with the breeders being purley motivated by money... he lives on a farm and was saying he would have big pens with insulated heated kennels, grooming parlour even some hydro pool or something he said for exercise

so i want to ask would you be interested in a pup from him from what ive described?

Cherry Blossom

Are they working lines or show lines or a combination of both? If they are just pets then why have they been hip and eye scored?

trixyben

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Are they working lines or show lines or a combination of both? If they are just pets then why have they been hip and eye scored?

they are just pets but they come from very well bred lines, i think they are all scored is to make sure they all good and healthy, he does agility training with them he has a course set up for them as a hobby himself really, he isnt a fan of showing dogs or dogs put in shows for whatever reason...

Cherry Blossom

Well, to me - well-bred means the dogs themselves are champions in the show-ring, and come from a long line of champions, any dogs ancestry is not worth it's salt unless that particular dog itself has proven itself.

Because I like working dogs this wouldn't bother me per say but I would expect to see retriever puppies coming from parents that are either being worked properly as gundogs (which is the point of their existence) or having done very well in field trials. I do agility and would never buy a retriever as an agility dog they are just not the best build for job. But any dog that I would consider for the purpose (agility) I would also expect to come from parents that were at the top of the sport and lets face it, realistically that isn't going to be a retriever.

I can see why he has them tested if he does agility with them, but I'd also want to know what the exact results of the tests were. If I were him I'd consider doing competitive obedience or something but again they wouldn't be top of the league in terms of intelligence or trainability. I wouldn't be buying a golden retriever though to be honest so probably not providing the most subjective view!

ISDW

No I wouldn't buy a pup from him.

I will only buy a pup from someone who breeds for themselves, not purely to sell the pups which, as nice as this man sounds, is what he would be doing. It doesn't matter how you sugarcoat it, if you breed an animal purely to sell, or for profit, that is farming and I don't agree with puppy farming.

If he has never shown or worked his dogs properly, how does he know that they are good examples of the breed? Coming from good lines means nothing, if you breed a dog from exceptional lines with one from bad lines, you are going to dilute the good lines, keep doing that, and you will end up with sub-standard, probably unhealthy dogs. Unless you are breeding direct from proven dogs, pedigree means nothing - in my opinion.

And if he's keeping them in kennels outside and just using them for breeding, then they're not pets.

Shanao

ISDW wrote: »

No I wouldn't buy a pup from him.

I will only buy a pup from someone who breeds for themselves, not purely to sell the pups which, as nice as this man sounds, is what he would be doing. It doesn't matter how you sugarcoat it, if you breed an animal purely to sell, or for profit, that is farming and I don't agree with puppy farming.

If he has never shown or worked his dogs properly, how does he know that they are good examples of the breed? Coming from good lines means nothing, if you breed a dog from exceptional lines with one from bad lines, you are going to dilute the good lines, keep doing that, and you will end up with sub-standard, probably unhealthy dogs. Unless you are breeding direct from proven dogs, pedigree means nothing - in my opinion.

And if he's keeping them in kennels outside and just using them for breeding, then they're not pets.

Going to have to agree with ISDW on this, along with the fact that Golden Retrievers are being overbred already at the moment and there are plenty in rescue, even puppies at this stage. Responsible breeding to me is breeding from an excellent pedigree, on both sides, from dogs that have proven themselves both in the ring and in what they were originally bred for, then they will need to have all relevant health tests done, the puppies will already be booked well before the parents are even bred to each other, they are born and raised in the house where they can be exposed to different sounds and people coming through, they are kept until minimum 8 weeks, vaccinated, registered with the IKC (and not bloody canine ireland as a lot of socalled breeders are now doing), microchipped, fed a high quality food and well socialised by their breeder.
On top of that, the breeder will have a contract that they will take back any pups at any stage of that pup's life to ensure it doesn't end up being abandoned in a pound or sold on to someone else.
And even then, only breed if you want to keep a puppy for yourself.

Tranceypoo

No, I wouldn't buy a puppy from him (not that I'm in the market for one!)

Was going to say what ISDW already said, if they're kept outside in kennels for breeding then they're not pets and he's just doing what he says he is opposed to, being a puppy farmer.

Do you know what his reasons for breeding would be? If he loves the breed and does all the agility and everything and it sounds like he really enjoys his dogs, why on earth would he want to breed from them, especially since he is aware of puppy farmers and byb?

Irishchick

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Are they working lines or show lines or a combination of both? If they are just pets then why have they been hip and eye scored?

Just because they are pets doesnt mean they cant get hip dysplasia!!

Are you saying only show dogs should be health tested??:mad:

Cherry Blossom

Irishchick wrote: »

Just because they are pets doesnt mean they cant get hip dysplasia!!

Are you saying only show dogs should be health tested??:mad:

No, I didn't say anything remotely of the sort :rolleyes:. The tone of your post doesn't deserve any more elaboration than that. If you require clarification I suggest you read my first posts in the thread properly.

john t

If he is a licenced breeder and registers with the companys office and complies with all legal legislation and pays all taxes, also if he does health checks and keeps his dogs in good condition and gives advice on breed and a back up/ return guarentee too potential buyers then yes people would purchase a dog from him...

Cherry Blossom

john t wrote: »

If he is a licenced breeder and registers with the companys office and complies with all legal legislation and pays all taxes, also if he does health checks and keeps his dogs in good condition and gives advice on breed and a back up/ return guarentee too potential buyers then yes people would purchase a dog from him...

What's a licensed breeder? What has the companies office got to do with dog breeding? And can you link to the relevant legislation please because as far as I know, there isn't any.

lrushe

Personally for me there is no need for someone to breed their dog unless it is to improve on the next generation and strengthen the breed. The amount of dogs that would fall into this category are minuscle. The amount of pups of each breed that should be produced each year should amount to drop in a cup of water, it definately should never be seen as a business.
I applaud your friend for health testing (though I'd like to see the results) and also for doing agility with his dogs as any dog is capable of doing and enjoying this sport and it's excellent for showing up any health issues. However for me skipping showing is a flaw, you can't improve on the next generation if you don't know what you have in the first place, coming from good lines is a start but doesn't mean your dog lives up to it's bloodlines unless shown.
For me he wouldn't be the worst breeder out there but that wouldn't be enough for me to want to buy from him.

Irishchick

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

No, I didn't say anything remotely of the sort :rolleyes:. The tone of your post doesn't deserve any more elaboration than that. If you require clarification I suggest you read my first posts in the thread properly.

If they are just pets then why have they been hip and eye scored?

^^^ This was your first post. You insinuated that if a dog is just a pet then they don't need to be hip or eye scored....

Cherry Blossom

Irishchick wrote: »

^^^ This was your first post. You insinuated that if a dog is just a pet then they don't need to be hip or eye scored....

A dog that is just a pet doesn't need to be hip or eye scored unless there is some particular reason for doing it, I've never had a dog hip or eye-scored, I've never had any need to. I had a lab that had severe orthopaedic issues, getting hip scores done would have been a pretty pointless exercise in a dog that was already diagnosed. My current dog is a breed in which eye and orthopaedic issues are completely unheard of in, so what is the point of getting her tested?

This is a thread about breeding as far as I can see, so I'm not sure what your point is. A dog that is intended to be bred from is not just a pet and 'just a pet' should never be bred from. There is one vet in the entire country that is certified to carry out these tests, are you telling me that you have had every dog you have ever owned eye and hip scored even if there was no reason to do it other than for the sake of it?

(Apologies for the above edit to your post, I meant to quote your post, not edit it.)

**Vai**

Wouldnt buy a pup from any guy (or gal).

DBB

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

My current dog is a breed in which eye and orthopaedic issues are completely unheard of in

Isn't your current dog a Westie?

Cherry Blossom

DBB wrote: »

Isn't your current dog a Westie?

Yes, she is and I'm sure your just dying to compose a lengthy post on the topic of luxating patellas and Legg-Calve-Perthes, but it is completely irrelevant to this thread so I would expect that you would convey this by PM if you feel it necessary to do this rather than the trend of posters picking holes in my posts in this thread continue for the purposes of some unknown reason.

DBB

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Yes, she is and I'm sure your just dying to compose a lengthy post on the topic of luxating patellas and Legg-Calve-Perthes, but it is completely irrelevant to this thread so I would expect that you would convey this by PM if you feel it necessary to do this rather than the trend of posters picking holes in my posts in this thread continue for the purposes of some unknown reason.

:eek: Jeez.
I had no intention of making a lengthy post, and might I also say that I have never, ever "picked holes" in your posts.
However, as you might know, I have particular expertise in Westies, and I was surprised to see you saying that orthopaedic issues are unheard of in them.
Saying that Westies don't suffer from orthopaedic conditons is entirely relevant: but if it's not relevant to this thread, I'm happy to open a new thread discussing the orthopaedic issues facing Westies.
I would hate to have anyone thinking of buying a Westie read such a post and think they were safe from othopaedic problems, when that is certainly not the case. Or someone thinking of breeding Westies that they don't have to screen them for these conditions prior to breeding. I spend my life trying to make people aware of these conditions, and if someone here publicly posts wrongful information about them, I will publicly correct those mistakes, as opposed to hiding it behind a PM.
I am not picking holes, merely correcting a factual error.

For anyone interested in Westies, they commonly suffer from orthopaedic conditions:
Legg-Calve-Perthe's Disease.
Luxating Patellas.
And craniomandibular osteopathy (CMO, or Lion's Head)

A lot of people have holes picked in their posts, surely that is part of discussion and a common feature on discussion forums?
Is it not acceptable to correct a person for posting inaccurate information?
I suppose, like others of late, I may await a ban now for pointing out facts based on my recognised expertise on the subject.
:rolleyes:

Cherry Blossom

I think you have completely missed the point of my post there - it was please do the OP the courtesy of not taking this thread any further off topic. I was actually referring to the original person who suggested I was saying only show dogs should be health-tested with hole picking bit. I'm pretty burnt out at this stage and am in danger of posting a load of gibberish pretty soon, so I'm leaving it at that.

DBB

I don't feel I misinterpreted the tone or point of your post at all.
I'd hope the ethos here on an animal forum would be to correct a potentially damaging mistake even if it means pulling a thread temporarily off-topic... or is it that we should leave such information unchallenged, for the thread to stay rigidly on topic? There are loads of examples on this forum where temporary diversions are "tolerated" for the sake of clarity.

And on this topic...
OP, whilst I've little doubt your friend means well, I think his good intentions may be a little misguided. I would never buy a pup that was not raised inside the house, nor would I advise anyone else to. I'm afraid being reared outside does not a good pet dog make.
Retrievers especially have started to develop some really worrying behavioural problems in recent years, and breeders need to be ultra aware of these problems to couteract them, both genetically and environmentally.
And whilst showing is one way of ascertaining the quality of his breeding dogs, my personal preference would be dogs bred for function, and I would be opting for a dog from working lines with good ongoing health screening.
But that's just me. However, as has already been pointed out, the country is full to bursting with unwanted retrievers. Do we really need any more?

Shammy

DBB wrote: »

And on this topic...
OP, whilst I've little doubt your friend means well, I think his good intentions may be a little misguided. I would never buy a pup that was not raised inside the house, nor would I advise anyone else to. I'm afraid being reared outside does not a good pet dog make.

I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion

DBB

Shammy wrote: »

I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion

It's not my conclusion, I can assure you, but it is borne out by my experience.
It's well documented that pups raised outside in a shed, rather than in the home, are far more likely to experience greater trauma when all of a sudden, at whatever age they're sold, they're transported from the relatively environmentally poor and quiet setting of a shed, to the sudden hustle and bustle of living in a house with all it's attendant noise, kids, people coming and going, domestic applicances etc.
There is no doubt whatsoever, that pups raised outside are far more likely, as a result of both the trauma of the sudden and dramatic change of environment, and lack of real, proper socialisation and acclimatisation whilst living outside away from a highly human (pet) environment, to have behavioural issues around nervousness, often leading to aggression. In fact, in my experience I would say that the whole experience comes close to devastating some pups, and is one of the major reasons why people buying puppy-farmed or BYB pups are taking a big risk.
Pups raised in the house, or who at least spend a signiicant proportion of their time inside the house, have a far less traumatic changeover, and adapt to their new home with far more ease, as they're well used to living in a human environment at that stage. It shows in their future behaviour, time and time again.
Of course, there are always exceptions, and I have no doubt I'll be made aware of some of those here, but in a bigger sense, the negative effects of raising pet pups outside in a shed are an absolute definite, documented both scientifically (adult dogs who were raised outside do not perform as well in cognition tests and communication tests as adults raised inside, for example), and experientially by any number of behaviourists across the world.

borderlinemeath

I wouldn't buy a pup from anybody that didn't have the parent(s) and pups as part of the home, there's too much risk involved in taking a pup that has zero socialisation skills into a home that is full of noise and kids.

I currently have a rescue dog that has issues with me sweeping/mopping the floor. He is a young dog, very nervous, and has made huge progress from being left for dead to being part of a family. He has "adjusted" to doors (refusing to go in and out) the TV, dishwashers etc but still cowers with fear if I take out the brush or mop to clean. No doubt he was abused with some sort of stick, and probably most of his issues stem from his breeding and the conditions he was raised in.

Shammy

DBB wrote: »

It's not my conclusion, I can assure you, but it is borne out by my experience.
It's well documented that pups raised outside in a shed, rather than in the home, are far more likely to experience greater trauma when all of a sudden, at whatever age they're sold, they're transported from the relatively environmentally poor and quiet setting of a shed, to the sudden hustle and bustle of living in a house with all it's attendant noise, kids, people coming and going, domestic applicances etc.
There is no doubt whatsoever, that pups raised outside are far more likely, as a result of both the trauma of the sudden and dramatic change of environment, and lack of real, proper socialisation and acclimatisation whilst living outside away from a highly human (pet) environment, to have behavioural issues around nervousness, often leading to aggression. In fact, in my experience I would say that the whole experience comes close to devastating some pups, and is one of the major reasons why people buying puppy-farmed or BYB pups are taking a big risk.
Pups raised in the house, or who at least spend a signiicant proportion of their time inside the house, have a far less traumatic changeover, and adapt to their new home with far more ease, as they're well used to living in a human environment at that stage. It shows in their future behaviour, time and time again.
Of course, there are always exceptions, and I have no doubt I'll be made aware of some of those here, but in a bigger sense, the negative effects of raising pet pups outside in a shed are an absolute definite, documented both scientifically (adult dogs who were raised outside do not perform as well in cognition tests and communication tests as adults raised inside, for example), and experientially by any number of behaviourists across the world.

Apologies , i some what mis-interpeted your post . As most of the dogs i've gotten over the years were raised in out door kennels , but were taken indoors for socialization and getting used to the normal sounds of a household a couple of times a day .

gigawatt

in answer to the ops question, by the sound of what you've described I probably would buy a dog from your friend. He sounds like he cares about his dogs and they are healthy and well looked after. the agility training is really cool because it means the dogs are well stimulated/trained and it indicates that they are pets despite the fact that they are kept outside. imo dogs can be pets and live outdoors, it just doesn't suit everybody to have several large dogs in the house (dirt, mess, allergies etc). from what you describe it seems that he wants to breed the dogs for his own personal pleasure and it doesn't come across to me that he is 'farming' the dogs.