Accuracy: .22lr -v- .223

demonloop

Mod note: Split out from the proofing thread as we were so far off-topic and the idea was (in the abstract at least) interesting...

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

With the borescope I could see the magnified lands and rifling of my barrel, and see the uniformity and lack of burrs and other common tooling scratches.

If you ever looked down a factory "proofed" barrel with a bore scope (I have) one would wonder how it even fired a projectile straight.

My Main point is the Steel is of a much higher grade, and simply more of it than the previous barrel.

So why in the name of belelzebob would I want to hand it over to some guy to ruin it :eek:

I have a Bleiker, with a Lilja barrel. As with your barrel, the quality of the rifling is superb.

There's 4 other Bleikers in the 'circle' I shoot with regularly.

They were all proofed in Germany.

They all shoot 11/12mm 10 shot groups at 50m, so to suggest the proofing somehow ruins the barrel/accuracy is a bit, well, wrong.

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

I have a Bleiker, with a Lilja barrel. As with your barrel, the quality of the rifling is superb.

There's 4 other Bleikers in the 'circle' I shoot with regularly.

They were all proofed in Germany.

They all shoot 11/12mm 10 shot groups at 50m, so to suggest the proofing somehow ruins the barrel/accuracy is a bit, well, wrong.

With the greatest of respect, a .22lr and a centrefire rifle SAAMI pressures are chalk and cheese.

Did you ever consider your Lilja may do 6mm groups had it not been proofed

The real accuracy of a rifle is not tested until after 50 metres. Several rifles can 1 hole @50 metres, infact my .223 can shoot consistently better groups than your Lilja at the same distance. Should I get that proofed to prove otherwise?
Custom centrefires are 600-1200 yard Rifles depending on calibre, things only get tricky after 50m;)




@ Tac Foley.
I'm not insulting any guy in London or Birmingham. They are only doing their job, as outlined by their laws........
I'm glad I don't live in England and don't need there help all the same.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The real accuracy of a rifle is not tested until after 50 metres.

That's just plain wrong Tack.

Several rifles can 1 hole @50 metres

Yeah, but they have to make larger holes with far more kinetic energy behind the round than demonloop's do in order to hold that 1 hole group...

Honestly, you can't compare demonloop's bleiker to your .223; in any fair, accuracy-based metric, you'll lose. They don't cost five grand and up per rifle just for the nametag...

demonloop

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Thats where you and I will differ on opinion.
I have a vernier calipers that says I can put 10 rounds into a smaller hole than 7mm....

I was half taking you seriously up to this point

My groups are measured by Meyton.

Comparing your verniers to Meyton is comparing an F1 car to a...... oh, wait

Here, just had a thought. 7mm? Well the round is 5.66, give or take. So you have 10 shots showing variation of 0.67mm to either side of 'centre' to arrive at a 7mm hole, and you're shooting outside I imagine, and from a bipod as opposed to clamped in a vice?

I'd really need to see that!

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

Over-pressure is over-pressure though.

No, because I have the test group from BEFORE it was proofed too. Its 12mm.
Any measured groups you can post on here? I have loads...
I shoot with my elbows 1m behind the line so must be just as tricky then?

I have loads of groups posted here.
If I was not away from home now I'd go out to shoot you a fresh one, I love a challenge.

I shoot with my elbows on gravel and the odd nettle for extra fun

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

I was half taking you seriously up to this point

My groups are measured by Meyton.

Comparing your verniers to Meyton is comparing an F1 car to a...... oh, wait

I can also use Image recognition software from a SEM if you prefer.
I use F1 Technology all the time

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Thats where you and I will differ on opinion.
I have a vernier calipers that says I can put 10 rounds into a smaller hole than 7mm....

I'm sure you do.
Now, get out your ballistic calculator, figure out where your rounds have 120 joules of kinetic energy in them, and tell us the group size at that range in MoA, and compare that to demonloop's beiker.
You'll still be comparing apples and oranges, but since they're both spherical hand-held tree fruit of similar weights, it'll be better than what you're doing now, which is comparing chalk and cheese.

When your €5k .224 calibre rifle can shoot under an inch at 200 yards I'll take my hat off.

Not my €5k .22lr calibre rifle.
And when it's designed to shoot at 50m, it'd be silly to look at its performance at 200 yards. It'd be seeing how fast a ferrari could tow a caravan.

It's like comparing high quality go-carts with F1 cars

I think you'd find better shooters than you (like say, Tubbs) would disagree with that assessment.

demonloop

Here, just had a thought. 7mm? Well the round is 5.66, give or take. So you have 10 shots showing variation of 0.67mm to either side of 'centre' to arrive at a 7mm hole, and you're shooting outside I imagine, and from a bipod as opposed to clamped in a vice?

I'd really need to see that!

Tackleberrywho

You don't need to be a better shooter than me Or you to appreciate .22lrs have there place.....................
At 50m :rolleyes:

a .17hmr will shoot smaller groups again at the same range with more kenetic energy, and Duffy in Galway sells them for under €500

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

Here, just had a thought. 7mm? Well the round is 5.66, give or take. So you have 10 shots showing variation of 0.67mm to either side of 'centre' to arrive at a 7mm hole, and you're shooting outside I imagine, and from a bipod as opposed to clamped in a vice?

I'd really need to see that!

Any time yee Nordies wanna call down South yee can, I've a spare room
Or if you prefer I'll go North. Tell Sam to have the spare room ready!

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You don't need to be a better shooter than me Or you to appreciate .22lrs have there place.....................
At 50m :rolleyes:
a .17hmr will shoot smaller groups again at the same range with more kenetic energy, and Duffy in Galway sells them for under €500

You miss the point Tack.
Needing a larger round, or more kinetic energy, to hold a similar group size, means your rifle is (on some abstract level) less accurate than the one you're comparing it to, not more so...

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

You miss the point Tack.
Needing a larger round, or more kinetic energy, to hold a similar group size, means your rifle is (on some abstract level) less accurate than the one you're comparing it to, not more so...

when my bullet is travelling at 729 fps it is 120 Joules which I reckon would be around 1100 yards, buy my spec (kill zone) is not 1100 yards but 50-600 and 50-250 on foxes. At 300 yards my rifle is ~Demonloops accuracy levels @50

My rifle was not designed to be a paper puncher, but a Varminter. I know, I designed it and proved it in the field.

If some guy in Birmingham or London has a problem with that, it's his problem.

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

At 300 yards my rifle is ~Demonloops accuracy levels @50

Hang on, hang on.

You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

demonloop

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Any time yee Nordies wanna call down South yee can, I've a spare room
Or if you prefer I'll go North. Tell Sam to have the spare room ready!

We're there most weekends in the summer!

Sam always has great cake too!

Tackleberrywho

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on, hang on.

You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

Weather permitting and not suffering Jet lag, I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300 with Match grade ammo.

I saw Paulo do similar with a .243 Trueflite recently.
Unproofed :eek:

Sparks

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on, hang on.
You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

Well, be fair - you'd want to show the same accuracy in MoA at 300 yards, rather than the same accuracy in edge-to-edge group size. 11mm edge-to-edge groups at 50m with a .22lr translates to about 0.37 MoA.

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

We're there most weekends in the summer!

Sam always has great cake too!

That his wife does!
I want to see Sam in a Kilt too!

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Weather permitting and not suffering Jet lag, I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300 with Match grade ammo.
I saw Paulo do similar with a .243 Trueflite recently.
Unproofed :eek:

Edge-to-edge or center to center? (And we're talking about 10 shot groups here, right?)

demonloop

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on, hang on.

You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

"Under 7mm" at 50m would be equal to about 34mm at 300 yards. Thats edge to edge.

The F Class 300yd target has a v-bull diamater of 57.15mm

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

"Under 7mm" at 50m would be equal to about 34mm at 300 yards. Thats edge to edge.

The F Class 300yd target has a v-bull diamater of 57.15mm

Does that mean I win as an inch is 25.4mm?? :cool:

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Weather permitting and not suffering Jet lag, I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300 with Match grade ammo.

I saw Paulo do similar with a .243 Trueflite recently.
Unproofed :eek:

Any chance you took photos of these 10 shot groups?

Cause it's funny, benchrest shooters are barely capable of that accuracy with only 5 rounds. A world record (might have been broken since) at 300 yards for a 5 shot group is like 1.19 cm or something.

Oh here it is:
http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/dunedin/120522/marksmans-aim-right-world-record

So yeah I don't believe you at all I'm afraid.

demonloop

Vegeta wrote: »

Any chance you took photos of these 10 shot groups?

Cause it's funny, benchrest shooters are barely capable of that accuracy with only 5 rounds. A world record (might have been broken since) at 300 yards for a 5 shot group is like 1.19 cm or something.

Oh here it is:
http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/dunedin/120522/marksmans-aim-right-world-record

So yeah I don't believe you at all I'm afraid.

Feet up, popcorn in hand.

Tackleberrywho

Vegeta wrote: »

Any chance you took photos of these 10 shot groups?

Cause it's funny, benchrest shooters are barely capable of that accuracy with only 5 rounds. A world record (might have been broken since) at 300 yards for a 5 shot group is like 1.19 cm or something.

Oh here it is:
http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/dunedin/120522/marksmans-aim-right-world-record

So yeah I don't believe you at all I'm afraid.

11.9mm Vs 12.7-19.05mm 1/2-3/4"

He does shoot in a very similar way to me though, one eyed and all:eek:

And I quote "It's been a lot of fun so far. It's a real challenge doing something where a fraction of an inch can take you from hero to zero."
1/2-3/4 at 300 is no world record

Vegeta

demonloop wrote: »

Feet up, popcorn in hand.

Ah now, I don't mean it in a bitchy way.

I have seen the photos of Tacks groups and he can put 3-4 rounds in a tight group with that rifle.

Just not 10 rounds in close to 11-12mm. That's world record stuff for feck sake.

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

11.9mm Vs 12.7-19.05mm 1/2-3/4"

He does shoot in a very similar way to me though, one eyed and all:eek:

And I quote "It's been a lot of fun so far. It's a real challenge doing something where a fraction of an inch can take you from hero to zero."
1/2-3/4 at 300 is no world record

So you still claim to put twice as many rounds as these guys into a hole only 1mm bigger?

I think you're going to hurt your reputation with claims like that Tack

Sparks

Tack, saying you can put in a group that's within 0.8mm of the world record in benchrest (shot from a very solid rest) when shooting from a bipod, well, we're into Carl Sagan territory here (as in "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence").

Tackleberrywho

Vegeta wrote: »

So you still claim to put twice as many rounds as these guys into a hole only 1mm bigger?

I think you're going to hurt your reputation with claims like that Tack

I said between 1/2 and 3/4:eek: (mostly closer 3/4 or the odd time I can miss by a mile )
And probably 5 not ten at 300.
But at 50 against Demonloop Game on!
And I have none of that ammo available to me that he has all batch tested an everything!

After extensive chronoing recently, my faith in factory ammo has been severely tested.

I do know that the guys who were under the Pilot scheme shot out of their skins Vs the Yanks. Especially a Blonde Bomshell from Wickla who was a Virgin Target shooter
Had they been handed all UMC the comp was anybodies.

To get sub MOA is the bar we all strive for, to get well below MOA we all need everything tuned to the last and singing

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Tack, saying you can put in a group that's within 0.8mm of the world record in benchrest (shot from a very solid rest) when shooting from a bipod, well, we're into Carl Sagan territory here (as in "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence").

You obviously misread my post.
1/2-3/4" 13-19 (6mm) being a mile bigger than 11.9 in record terms

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

And probably 5 not ten at 300.

Okay, so shoot a ten-shot group, make it your best, shoot it from a rest if you want, and show us what group size you get.

But at 50 against Demonloop Game on!
And I have none of that ammo available to me that he has all batch tested an everything!

Nor would you need it, if your round is larger and has literally more than ten times the kinetic energy behind it...

To get sub MOA is the bar we all strive for, to get well below MOA we all need everything tuned to the last and singing

Actually, for the shooting demonloop does, shooting 0.40 MOA would mean he couldn't even get up to par; he needs to be down around the 0.37 MOA level just to be competitive.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You obviously misread my post.

No, I don't think so...

Tackleberrywho, earlier wrote:

I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300

1/2-3/4" 13-19 (6mm) being a mile bigger than 11.9 in record terms

1/2" = 12.7mm = world record for benchrest + 0.8mm.
If you're saying you've never shot 1/2" groups, okay, but you need to be more exact about group sizes for this thread I think Tack...

Tackleberrywho

Below MOA@ 100yards is a basic yard stick accepted in general consensus

If the rain holds of long enough when I am off I will shoot a few groups.

I really wanted to shoot a Sika or Fallow too this week for my hecklers on the hunting thread, but I'll try to squeeze you all in.:D

So hard keep all yee guys happy.