Accuracy: .22lr -v- .223

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Below MOA@ 100yards is a basic yard stick accepted in general consensus

Except in ISSF, where you use edge-to-edge group sizes as they're a better metric to use (identical range, identical target size, and a direct translation to how many points the rifle/ammunition systems can potentially lose you).

So hard keep all yee guys happy.

It is always hard to keep people happy when you imply that you're better than they are at something without proving it

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Except in ISSF, where you use edge-to-edge group sizes as they're a better metric to use (identical range, identical target size, and a direct translation to how many points the rifle/ammunition systems can potentially lose you).


It is always hard to keep people happy when you imply that you're better than they are at something without proving it

The only thing I ever implied is that I have courage of conviction.

I'll prove the groups this week weather permitting.

clivej

I've just got into reading this thread and it's a good read.

Tack ................
Put up or shut up would seem to be what's need from you now. You'v been raving on over the Hornaday superformance for months and how they are shooting for ya, in fact a little to much for some people IMO.

When your digging a hole it's knowing when to stop that's the skill.

Tackleberrywho

clivej wrote: »

I've just got into reading this thread and it's a good read.

Tack ................
Put up or shut up would seem to be what's need from you now. You'v been raving on over the Hornaday superformance for months and how they are shooting for ya, in fact a little to much for some people IMO.

When your digging a hole it's knowing when to stop that's the skill.

Your entitled to your opinion.

Dusty87

Your talent is being wasted tack, imagine the trophys!

dev110

Lads I think I need to clear this up for Tack.

He is talking out his ass!!

Here is a group he shot with the old barrel at 300 yards with a 5mph wind



That doesn't look like 7mm. I know that he hasn't grouped the new barrel @ 300 yards.

Here is a pic of a group when he was breaking in the barrel



I believe he was saying this was shot at 100 yards. It was shot @ 25 yards.

I would love to see him get 10 shots into 7mm at 300 yards :rolleyes:
Only way I see that happening is if he shot once at the paper and missed the rest

Sorry for the rant but I can't take this bulls***e any more.

tomcat220t

I believe 1/2"-3/4" 5 shot groups can be done with the right setup @300 yards .I might not agree with all of tacks comments on this subject but some replys are from guys who have not got a custom built rifle and maybe dont understand just how accurate they can be in the right hands .

Dusty87

tomcat220t wrote: »

I believe 1/2"-3/4" 5 shot groups can be done with the right setup @300 yards .I might not agree with all of tacks comments on this subject but some replys are from guys who have not got a custom built rifle and maybe dont understand just how accurate they can be in the right hands .

and some are from lads who know him, and have met him a few times.

dev110

tomcat220t wrote: »

I believe 1/2"-3/4" 5 shot groups can be done with the right setup @300 yards .I might not agree with all of tacks comments on this subject but some replys are from guys who have not got a custom built rifle and maybe dont understand just how accurate they can be in the right hands .

I know what custom rifles can do in the right hands.
But the way he is going on is that his rifle will out beat everything out there and even beat a world record by reducing the group size and doubling the number of shots @ 300 yards.
There is a limit to how much you live in a fantasy world

stick shooter

@ Dev110 - Taking on board what you say and all that, but that is pretty good grouping @300 yards with a factory barrel .

tomcat220t

dev110 wrote: »

I know what custom rifles can do in the right hands.
But the way he is going on is that his rifle will out beat everything out there and even beat a world record by reducing the group size and doubling the number of shots @ 300 yards.
There is a limit to how much you live in a fantasy world

Judging for his 300 yard group with his old barrel ,the chap can shoot .....yes or no?Ive seen groups of one or two guys who replyed :rolleyes:

Cass

stick shooter wrote: »

......., but that is pretty good grouping @300 yards with a factory barrel .

Okay this has been annoying me for a while, and its possible i've ranted on about this before. I rant so often its hard to keep track.

For a proper group there must be a minimum of 5 shots, and this must be done a few times. A fluke or 3 shot "group" is NOT a group. Many times i've seen lads posting about how they got a 1/2" group, etc at a set distance when infact they zoom in and omit the stray round or show it and call it a sighting shot.

Fact is on most other forums and to be recognised as an "Official" group there is usually 4 sets of 5 shots, with the tightest being used as the best/average. The entire target is shown, with close ups of the individual groups leaving no room for misunderstandings. This is a group. Not 2 shots, 3 shots, etc, and not at stepped out distances, or done with friends around. On a range with a measured distance and independant witnesses. So even if i see a group at X distance i never believe it unless all or at least the majority of the above are shown and proven.


To that end a 1/2" group at 300 yards is possible. I have shot such groups before. However the 14.9mm group i got was the best of about 10 shot. The largest going to 1.5" because of a flyer, pulled shot, etc. Whether you want to count it or not is irrelevant. If its shot as a string of 5 it counts. The difference being i'm using a 32", select barrel, trued action, custom stock, F-Class bipod, solid rear bag, with tailor made ammo designed specifically for my rifle.

I don't doubt that there are lads capable of shooting excellent groups, but i've yet to see any in Ireland. So using a factory rifle even with a custom barrel, harris bipod, and factory ammo, and then claiming that it/you can shoot better or as good a group as the top benchrest shooter(s) in the world is simply not believeable. Benchrest shooters have given us pretty much every advancement in shooting, reloading, accuracy, etc that we have today.

@ TBW - If you can shoot this then be sure to contact me, i'll meet you on the range and would be happy to validate your ability.

stick shooter

Now thats a proper rant :D

Cass

I have my moments.

Dusty87

It is great shooting, at 25yards in fairness.

Longranger

I don't want to stir the proverbial,but this sounds like a target shooting conversation. I know shot placement is crucial in hunting,but jesus lads, if I shoot a rabbit, it won't matter of I'm .5 MOA out @150 yards. Maybe I'm over-stepping the mark, but is the whole"I'm better than you"thing a bit much here. Sorry if I pissed anyone off, but hey, just my two cents.

Cass

Look, don't get me wrong. I'm a sceptic. Always have been, and most likely always will. I don't take anything at face value until i see it for myself (within reason obviously. I mean i've never seen a baby pigeon, but i have no doubt they exist)

I've always said that the thing that keeps me true on this site is i wouldn't be allowed get away with spoofing. I couldn't meet the lads on the range next week after claiming i could do 1 inch groups at 1,000 yards on here. They would make a laughing stock out of me and quite rightly so.

Saying that i'd give anyone a chance. If someone wants to meet me and do a bit of shooting and they prove they can do what they claim i'll shake their hand and say well done. If not i will mock.

To tie in with my points in the last post people i have met before tell me they only shoot 2 or 3 shots for a group and never do anymore than 2 sets. Thats not a group. Anyone thats tried a proper group testing of mulitple shots, with mulitple rounds especially with factory ammo will tell you that there is always a stray that irrespective of the shooters ability or rifle ability will mess up your group. If the ammo is of good quality then there are no excuses.

I find it funny that in previously posted groups people dismiss the 3rd/4th/5th shot that wasn't in with the others as a "pulled shot" or "the wind caught it". Well newsflash thats still a shot and still counts towards the group size. Shooting tight groups is not about how the rifle does only, but also about the ability of the shooter to judge conditions.

Cass

Longranger wrote: »

I don't want to stir the proverbial,but this sounds like a target shooting conversation.

Fundamentally it probably is, but as its a general shooting topic rather than a specific target discipline its left here.

bazza888

whats the proper official way to measure a group?

Longranger

Ezridax wrote: »

Fundamentally it probably is, but as its a general shooting topic rather than a specific target discipline its left here.

Sorry, thought it was hunting. I'm digging a hole now, so I'll see ye when I get out:embarrassed:

Sparks

bazza888 wrote: »

whats the proper official way to measure a group?

Two ways - either the diameter of the smallest circle that would encompass all the shots (which is how ISSF group sizes are measured), or the diameter of the smallest circle which would encompass the centres of all of the shots. The center of the circle, obviously, doesn't have to lie within a shot hole itself, but for a good consistent group it usually will.

Cass

bazza888 wrote: »

whats the proper official way to measure a group?

The one i've seen most used would be to measure the edgeto edge of the two furthest apart bullet holes. You subtract the width of the bullet and you are left with the group size. Eg - a 5 shot group with a .308. It measures 1 inch. You take away the .308 of the bullet itself and you have .692 of an inch for your group. Thats 17.57mm.

As to the amount of groups you shot well thats dependant on your discipine. Some governing bodies ask for 10 shot groups others for 5 shot. Some use a single group other may ask for 2,3,4 groups.

Mr.Flibble

Ezridax wrote: »

The one i've seen most used would be to measure the edgeto edge of the two furthest apart bullet holes. You subtract the width of the bullet and you are left with the group size. Eg - a 5 shot group with a .308. It measures 1 inch. You take away the .308 of the bullet itself and you have .692 of an inch for your group. Thats 17.57mm.

For internet groups it's also normal to deduct about 10% for each year since the group was shot. (Reducing balance basis, obviously.) Not dissimilar to the basis anglers use for recording the weight of fish, but applied inversely.

Cass

Heh, heh. Wait till they tell you they shot a 5 shot group, with a .308 and it measured 7mm. :rolleyes:

Sparks

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

For internet groups it's also normal to deduct about 10% for each year since the group was shot. (Reducing balance basis, obviously.) Not dissimilar to the basis anglers use for recording the weight of fish, but applied inversely.

That's better than real life so - we usually added 50% or so to the usual on-the-range, you-should-have-seen-the-group-I-shot-yesterday-when-noone-was-here group sizes that we met before this place showed up

garv123

I once shot my pellet gun twice at a target and the second shot went through the first hole. a pellet is 6mm so therefore my pellet gun shoots 3mm groups :cool:
does that count?:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:


it was also at 50yards

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

Heh, heh. Wait till they tell you they shot a 5 shot group, with a .308 and it measured 7mm. :rolleyes:

Maybe im not on the ball but ive looked back through the thread and cant find where tack said he got a 7mm group with his .308 @300 yards .If i have missed something ,sorry !

demonloop

So, in conclusion, are we all agreed that my Bleiker, with factory tested Lapua ammo is more accurate??

tomcat220t

demonloop wrote: »

So, in conclusion, are we all agreed that my Bleiker, with factory tested Lapua ammo is more accurate??

More accurate than what ?

demonloop

tomcat220t wrote: »

Maybe im not on the ball but ive looked back through the thread and cant find where tack said he got a 7mm group with his .308 @300 yards .If i have missed something ,sorry !

Originally Posted by Tackleberrywho
Thats where you and I will differ on opinion.
I have a vernier calipers that says I can put 10 rounds into a smaller hole than 7mm....