Homophobia in Sports - Keeping Players in The Closet

Paparazzo

The old "look what happened to Justin Fashanu" argument doesn't work for me. He committed suicide because of allegations of sexual against him. Not because of homophobia in football.

And the whole "think of the abuse a player would get" doesn't wash either. (In englands premier league anyway) If a player came out as gay, and fans abused him, they would be given serious penalties. Same as racist chants.

TylerIE

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

I know of two gay football teams and a gay rowing club in Dublin and that's without being particularily interested in the issue or participating in either sport, so I'm guessing there plenty more and the exclusion and homophobia is probably a bit exagerrated.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Sounds kinda self-segregating somehow.

They are there and serve a purpose for those who wish to play with other LGBT individuals in an LGBT friendly environment. Its a social forum - just like the various Garda Sports Clubs and Work based sports clubs.

The homophobia is there in that its reported again and again that various Football Advisors advise their players not to come out - Max Clifford had advised same and I heard of some big manager recently saying same (German I think, cant find the link now).

PK2008 wrote: »

Why would you care if a footballer comes out as gay or not, its football not a support group. I couldn't care less what the sexual preference of any sports person is....

Do you really care OP or are you just looking for a crusade?

The OP is I assume looking to examine why this is? I know a small number of GAA players who are out at local level, but how many county players are out? Do young kids in rural GAA Ireland, who happen to be gay, have exposure to positive Irish role models?

I grew up in an environment where if you were gay and out you wouldnt consider doing sports. If your out your wide open to smart and snotty comments and abuse, for a start. IF your not out teamsports are pretty difficult - hiding your sexuality is not very conducive to you feeling like part of a team.

Flincher wrote: »

The law of averages would dictate that there are a lot of gay people playing elite sport, but I dont see why they all have to come out of the closet. I know the likes of Gareth Thomas felt they were doing some good by coming out, and that is well and good, but in my view, sexuality is a personal thing and if a player chooses not to publicly come out, well that is their own business.One lad on our soccer team is gay, most of us know, its not an issue. He doesnt need to broadcast the fact that hes gay. He says himself its not a defining characteristic. Hes just one of the lads who is into his soccer and goes for a few pints with us now and again. I imagine there are elite sports people who do the same.

Coming out gives young gay people role models. It helps ensure equality. When it comes to Marriage Equality I would hope your soccer team now think that your team-mate is entitled to the same rights you all are.

JupiterKid wrote: »

People might ask why should gay sportspeople be out and that's it's a "private" matter - I loathe this point of view.

With straight sportspeople - you get to hear plently about their private lives - the WAGS, the "celeb" life, gossip etc. Yet gay players are supposed to remain closeted? Talk about a case of double standards!

Also, from the perspective of being good role models to young gay people struggling with coming to terms with their sexuality, it's a good thing to have out and proud sportsmen and women who can be those role models. So many youngsters look up to sports stars as role models.

Indeed gay rugby international player Gareth Thomas said last year - "I want to be the gay role model that I never had." He also talked about how if his coming out might have prevented suidices among gay youth, he was happy.

It's important that gay men and lesbians are represented - and openly so- in professional sport.

Well said....

I believe there was some references to Anton Hysen and how you cant be a big soccer player and be gay.

LH Pathe

anyone who does come out in sport is bravest of all as it's the one field in particular where societal norms are rarely breached and most folk tend to go with the pack. But then under those circumstances it's possibly the one arena you should actually keep it zipped.. But then you don't want them shower peepers or willy comparers to be actually gay; guess they're not peeping so much if they're upfront with it. Difficult one

Thrill

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

No, not even close. You might want to read what I actually wrote.

That might be a reflection of the fact that in rugby at all levels, refs just don't get abuse. I wonder would an English Permier League ref find the same tolerance?

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you're intimating that a premier league ref would receive abuse from supporters, which is what the other poster was saying, only about players.

barone

i actually think the main reason that big name footballers havent come out is purely financial, id imagine most straight footballers would complain of having to share a bath or shower with openly gay men ,therefore lessening that players worth in the transfer market..



isnt it always about the money in football?


as for other sports i dont really know,maybe simillar

Kevin Duffy

Thrill wrote: »

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you're intimating that a premier league ref would receive abuse from supporters, which is what the other poster was saying, only about players.

Yeh, you do read it wrong, badly. I was questioning if openly gay refs in rugby and the EPL would have a different experience based on the fact that rugby refs don't get as much abuse in general.
The other poster you were referring to suggested that the homophobic abuse fans might heap on opposing players was a reason for players not to be openly gay, which I said was a morally lazy etc. argument against the idea. If the same logic were followed, racism would have driven black players out of the game long ago - clearly not a good thing.

LH Pathe

Never forget those trying times where one is expected to take one for the team... Yup ;- Then we'll see who the real men are.. or is that expendable

Cianos

barone wrote: »

i actually think the main reason that big name footballers havent come out is purely financial, id imagine most straight footballers would complain of having to share a bath or shower with openly gay men ,therefore lessening that players worth in the transfer market..



isnt it always about the money in football?


as for other sports i dont really know,maybe simillar

Yes probably, but I doubt the problem is with teammates. Boards of directors are aware that lad culture is the culture of reference as regards the image their team has. Signing an openly gay footballer would be seen as a strategic risk because it's easier to not rock the boat as regards the prejudices of the fans.

TylerIE

I quote an editorial I read recently:

Being out is the most fundamental thing we can do to improve the lives of future generations, and for most of us, it’s as basic (though not to say easy) as telling the people in our lives. But if you’re a person in the public eye and you refuse to say you’re LGBT in a public forum, you’re unequivocally not out. Yes, you have a different standard than the nonfamous.....

....who among us — more than the wealthy and famous — has the luxury of coming out and doing a ton of good in the process?

Sports personalities, who are household names, being out shows all the Daddys and Mammys in Ireland that just because your gay doesnt mean you cant be a county player/ great soccer player AND a normal, well adjusted, successful human being. It gives kids the opportunity to see a gay person on TV, and see that Daddy doesnt say "that f---ing qu--r" or that "f@iry".

Gay kids can see that they can live a life thats not destroyed just because they are gay. Until this year we didnt have any openly Gay TDs. When I was a teenager I assumed that being gay precluded you from holding any political position as nobody would vote for you. We've come a long way, but theres still a way to go.

Thankfully a small number of sports personalities have realised the importance of this, but more need to follow.

mikemac

TylerIE wrote: »

When I was a teenager I assumed that being gay precluded you from holding any political position as nobody would vote for you. We've come a long way, but theres still a way to go.

The good people of Kildare North returned Emmett Stagg and he was involved in some seriously dodgy behaviour over a decade ago

LH Pathe

Football has been all about money since the bosman ruling. worst decision ever to give players total control, and so it proved. They only feel allegiance with the highest wage they can muster now. not so much an issue / risk of loss in GAA obviously. But in a team sport in particular you're talking about individuality discouraged when all must be on the same page. If there was even any there to begin with - but again it's a tough call in that environment where I'd otherwise urge folk to come out, come out. whatever you are

randylonghorn

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I remember when that GAA lad came out a while ago every fan of the GAA i spoke to about it called him either "the faggot" or "the queer" and were pretty much disgusted by it.

Really?

My father is a former county footballer and coached at local level. He's no longer young, and I wouldn't hold him up as a prime example of moving with the times or "political correctness", whatever that means.

Yet his only reaction to the news about Donal Óg was to shrug his shoulders and say "It's his own business!"

Neither did any other GAA person I spoke to refer to him in those terms. I wouldn't say they were all very supportive, but the only arguments I heard were about whether he was right to make it public or not.

You might need to look at the type of people you hang around with tbh.

JupiterKid wrote: »

People might ask why should gay sportspeople be out and that's it's a "private" matter - I loathe this point of view.

With straight sportspeople - you get to hear plently about their private lives - the WAGS, the "celeb" life, gossip etc. Yet gay players are supposed to remain closeted? Talk about a case of double standards!

Also, from the perspective of being good role models to young gay people struggling with coming to terms with their sexuality, it's a good thing to have out and proud sportsmen and women who can be those role models. So many youngsters look up to sports stars as role models.

I do see where you're coming from, but I think it has to be up to the person themselves whether they want to make their business public.

Just as gay sportspeople shouldn't be under pressure from clubs / managers / peers (if they are) to remain in the closet, neither should they be under pressure to come out and act as role models. Ofc, the courage of those who do is admirable (since unfortunately it is still an issue at some level), but it has to be the individual's decision.

TylerIE

mikemac wrote: »

The good people of Kildare North returned Emmett Stagg and he was involved in some seriously dodgy behaviour over a decade ago

Such behaviour was certainly more acceptable than being gay. That was just criminality, not "immorality". Kinda proves my point - a criminal is elected a decade before a gay man.

In the eyes of the good Catholics of the country you can turn away from criminality but once a gay always a gay.

TylerIE

randylonghorn wrote: »

Neither did any other GAA person I spoke to refer to him in those terms. I wouldn't say they were all very supportive, but the only arguments I heard were about whether he was right to make it public or not.

What was the general opinion on whether or not he was right?

Is it up to people to discuss whether or not he should talk about his relationship status, seeing as it would be a non issue for "straight" players?

Unique User Name

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-3cuCEt9k8

That is all..

mikemac

TylerIE wrote: »

Such behaviour was certainly more acceptable than being gay. That was just criminality, not "immorality". Kinda proves my point - a criminal is elected a decade before a gay man.

It's both realy, are you remembering it as I do?

STAGG IN THE PARK In 1994 Emmet Stagg, a Minister of State in the Fianna Fail and Labour coalition government, openly admitted indiscretion with a rent-boy in the Phoenix Park.

For weeks Stagg's resignation seemed imminent but eventually salvation came in the form of support from Tanaiste Dick Spring and Taoiseach Albert Reynolds who said "charity and restraint" should be shown to the government minister.

The Labour Party demanded a Garda inquiry into who told the press about Mr Stagg's late-night trips to the Phoenix Park. Emmet Stagg is still Labour TD for Kildare.

Was big news at the time but faded away and he has been reelected ever since.
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/az-of-sex-scandals-119664.html

TylerIE

mikemac wrote: »

It's both realy, are you remembering it as I do?
Was big news at the time but faded away and he has been reelected ever since.
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/az-of-sex-scandals-119664.html

Lol cheers for that, I wasnt aware of that incident.

I thought it was just the paramilitary links that you were referring to, but I see they were even more distant than I thought.

Still he was hardly a political role model.... and I see now hes married with kids, so theres enough leeway for the head in the sand types to ignore his sexuality.

mikemac

You're thinking of Frank Stagg, his brother
Active in the IRA and died in a British jail

randylonghorn

TylerIE wrote: »

What was the general opinion on whether or not he was right?

Mixed.

In fairness, the reasons advanced were mostly whether it would make life difficult for himself / whether he would regret it.

TylerIE wrote: »

Is it up to people to discuss whether or not he should talk about his relationship status, seeing as it would be a non issue for "straight" players?

Fair question, but people will do it anyway.

And I would suggest that Donal intended the whole issue to be talked about and discussed, in all its facets and aspects; that that was his whole purpose, in fact.


(Mind you, it's not always a non-issue for straight players either. The fact that they are straight is, yes. But the relationship status of sportspeople often hits the headlines, and in a much more negative way than Donal Óg's did. We don't even have to go across the channel to English soccer etc. ... one of the "gods" of Donal's own sport found his name being dragged through the national media a few years back, and he certainly didn't consent to it or intend it to happen).

tonycascarino

Cianos wrote: »

afaik the manager of Sankt Pauli is openly gay.

No he's not. It's the former club president who is.

im invisible

artanevilla wrote: »

It's Justin Fashanu.......

sorry,,

i wonderd when i heard that is right,
yer man of Gladiators never stood out as gay, but you'd believe it...

Another thanks-whoring post gone for ****, such is life.

blackwhite

TylerIE wrote: »

They are there and serve a purpose for those who wish to play with other LGBT individuals in an LGBT friendly environment. Its a social forum - just like the various Garda Sports Clubs and Work based sports clubs.

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

Not intended as having a go at LGBT teams specifically, just seems to be double standards in play where it's OK to discriminate against the perceived majority (i.e. the Black Policemen's Associaton in UK - imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a White Policemen's Association; National Women's Council is ok - but a National Men's Council would be sexist).

4leto

blackwhite wrote: »

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

Not intended as having a go at LGBT teams specifically, just seems to be double standards in play where it's OK to discriminate against the perceived majority (i.e. the Black Policemen's Associaton in UK - imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a White Policemen's Association; National Women's Council is ok - but a National Men's Council would be sexist).

Because its about exclusivity and inclusiveness, minorities feel they are on the outside looking in, they have a separate culture and there are real discriminations, so they group together to fight that, to fit in. So they find each other to feel included with-in a group with-in a group.

As for homophobia in sport, I agree with the OP, years ago in the stands of a football match the racist taunts was disgusting. Thankfully that has being reduced, but you still get the disgusting homophobic taunts.

The football racism campaign was a success, there should be similar for homophobia.

c_man

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I remember when that GAA lad came out a while ago every fan of the GAA i spoke to about it called him either "the faggot" or "the queer" and were pretty much disgusted by it.

Sounds like bull tbh. It was well known, I don't think any cared that much until it got out to the general public. Reaction I encountered was that he made a big deal out of it to up his books sales.

biko

Well if there is about 9% gay men then that means there's a least a few on every single sports team.
About 5% of women are gay (don't believe the porn) so a few in those teams too.

mickydoomsux

c_man wrote: »

Sounds like bull tbh. It was well known, I don't think any cared that much until it got out to the general public. Reaction I encountered was that he made a big deal out of it to up his books sales.

Well i'm glad i have you to tell me what i experienced in my own life

I live in a rural area, the folks around here were far less forgiving than the majority who genuinely didn't care.

I'd feel sorry for any fella/girl coming out in rural Ireland.

rugbug86

blackwhite wrote: »

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

Not intended as having a go at LGBT teams specifically, just seems to be double standards in play where it's OK to discriminate against the perceived majority (i.e. the Black Policemen's Associaton in UK - imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a White Policemen's Association; National Women's Council is ok - but a National Men's Council would be sexist).

It's advertised as a gay club but it's also straight friendly. It's not exclusively gay. I know of at least one straight guy who plays on a gay rugby team as it was the closest team to him for training. He didn't have an issue and either did any of the other lads on the team.

It's about inclusion. You don't HAVE to be gay to play on a gay team.

Jimoslimos

Wondering why this isn't in the LGBT forum but perhaps its to gauge reaction from general public.

Firstly I think a distinction needs to be drawn between team and individual sports.

Team players must;
1) Kiss the club/country badge at every opportunity
2) Acknowledge the fans
3) Not be gay

Interesting to note that most of the gay sportspersons who are out tend to play sports like tennis - individual sportsmen and women tend to have a different mindset to team players and don't feel the pressure to conform to 'team spirit' or 'not let the fans down'.

Also the tabloid media play a huge part in keeping players in the closet - look at the furore over top premiership players' private affairs, Cole, Giggs, Rooney, Beckham, etc have been front-page fodder before - imagine the hounding a player (especially a married one) would have if they were 'outed'

im invisible wrote: »

sorry,,
i wonderd when i heard that is right,
yer man of Gladiators never stood out as gay, but you'd believe it...

It was his brother, they both played professional football so easy mistake to make i guess.

blackwhite

rugbug86 wrote: »

It's advertised as a gay club but it's also straight friendly. It's not exclusively gay. I know of at least one straight guy who plays on a gay rugby team as it was the closest team to him for training. He didn't have an issue and either did any of the other lads on the team.

It's about inclusion. You don't HAVE to be gay to play on a gay team.

Fair enough. I've no real problem with having teams to cater for any specific grouping, be it racial, sexual orientation or whatever. We've
Just still think that if somebody set up a team and advertised it as a hetero team then there'd be massive outcry about it.

Jimoslimos wrote:

Interesting to note that most of the gay sportspersons who are out tend to play sports like tennis - individual sportsmen and women tend to have a different mindset to team players and don't feel the pressure to conform to 'team spirit' or 'not let the fans down'.

Just on that, my own GAA team has one openly homosexual player on the team. Nobody on the team really passes any heed to it (although he doesn't get subjected to as much of the slagging/banter that every other member of the team gets, probably down to fear of offence being taken). He's taken some abuse over his orientation from opposition during games (not too often TBH), but usually when he gets guff from the sidelines is for being a lanky string of p*** as opposed to anything else.


In team sports opposing players and supporters will pick up on anything that they think will rile their opponents. Players taking abuse regarding their sexuality isn't always based on homophobia, it's more likely due to opponents picking up on something that they believe the person is sensitive about, and will put them off.
Wayne Rooney and Frank Lampard get called fat, David Beckham has to endure countless chants about his wife & children and Fernando Torres gets called a ladyboy. All are just opposition fans trying to get into their heads and put them off their game.
Fans chanting that Wayne Rooney is a fat ******* doesn't mean that these fans are discriminatory against fat people, it's (a pretty poor form of) gamesmanship.

sunflower27

The story about Justin is really sad. Such a promising career cut short.

Had not heard of that before.

4leto

blackwhite wrote: »

Fair enough. I've no real problem with having teams to cater for any specific grouping, be it racial, sexual orientation or whatever. We've
Just still think that if somebody set up a team and advertised it as a hetero team then there'd be massive outcry about it.






In team sports opposing players and supporters will pick up on anything that they think will rile their opponents. Players taking abuse regarding their sexuality isn't always based on homophobia, it's more likely due to opponents picking up on something that they believe the person is sensitive about, and will put them off.
Wayne Rooney and Frank Lampard get called fat, David Beckham has to endure countless chants about his wife & children and Fernando Torres gets called a ladyboy. All are just opposition fans trying to get into their heads and put them off their game.
Fans chanting that Wayne Rooney is a fat ******* doesn't mean that these fans are discriminatory against fat people, it's (a pretty poor form of) gamesmanship.

That's a good point, BUT what if the crowd start calling Rio Ferdinand a

Ni**er or a black bastard

or in the old days making monkey chants, that IMO is disgusting and totally unacceptable. I would say the same for any homophobic chant.

blackwhite

4leto wrote: »

That's a good point, BUT what if the crowd start calling Rio Ferdinand a

Ni**er or a black bastard

or in the old days making monkey chants, that IMO is disgusting and totally unacceptable. I would say the same for any homophobic chant.

Fair point.

I don't think that the abuse of this sort (or any really) is acceptable. More pointing out that the mass-branding of fans as racist/homophopic/etc is often misguided and lazy.

daveyboy_1ie

sunflower27 wrote: »

The story about Justin is really sad. Such a promising career cut short.

Had not heard of that before.

It was a disgrace and personally I think its the main answer to the OP's question. I read somwhere recently that Gareth Thomas is one of the only openly gay team players in world sports. There are quite a few inidividual sports players openly gay, but team sports its still a taboo subject.

4leto

blackwhite wrote: »

Fair point.

I don't think that the abuse of this sort (or any really) is acceptable. More pointing out that the mass-branding of fans as racist/homophopic/etc is often misguided and lazy.

I am not sure about that, you don't get more denigrating or racist then monkey chants. What if you where a blackman in the crowd listening to that anytime your hero/rolemodel had the ball. Pretty soon you would not want to attend the game, you would feel excluded from the beautiful game, The same would be true for a gay fan.

A little off topic, I use to go to the Ireland games when I could during and the Jack era and we use to chant "oooh agh Paul Mc Grath I say Ooh Agh Paul Mc Grath" to our national hero.

But I was reading in Tony Cascarino's book that in the early day Paul Mc Grath interpreted that as a monkey chant :eek: I had no idea and it definitely wasn't.

myself69

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

I know of two gay football teams and a gay rowing club in Dublin and that's without being particularily interested in the issue or participating in either sport, so I'm guessing there plenty more and the exclusion and homophobia is probably a bit exagerrated.

Never heard of a gay rowing club in Dublin. What's the name?

Edit:
Found it. Phoenix Rowing Club. Was jogging past the municipal boathouse recently and wondering what the commotion was.

TylerIE

blackwhite wrote: »

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

As stated already most LGBT Teams are generally for LGBT individuals or their allies / supporters (ie gay friendly people). As opposed to some comments about LGBT teams being self segregating, straight players are very welcome on most. As one poster stated Emerald Warriors have some (I believe a good few) straight players.

LGBT teams are minority groups, where people who face similar issues can be supported in a safe environment.

Fromthetrees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroF9r2AeIU

JupiterKid

It's pretty heartening to see that many of the posts on this thread I started about homophobia in sports and closeted players are supportive of changing the status quo. Very impressive for After Hours!:D

The culture in sport needs to change - there is little room for sportspeople to come out in a very macho and homophobic environment where many supporters chant the most disgusting and hate-filled words and put downs, where team managers and club owners foster an environment of secrecy and are unsupportive and indeed pretty hostile to gay and lesbian team players.

If racism can be kicked out of sport - then homophobia can too. But it's up to the clubs an sporting organisation to take a lead in this, and the onus should not just be on the sportsmen and women who take the very brave decision to come out.

Will I Amnt

JupiterKid wrote: »

If racism can be kicked out of sport - then homophobia can too. But it's up to the clubs an sporting organisation to take a lead in this, and the onus should not just be on the sportsmen and women who take the very brave decision to come out.

The difference and why I think it will never change is a player can hide their sexuality,it's obviously a different story with race.

Racism was more of less kicked out because it was a problem that people witnessed.
Because of the lack of openly gay players there is no evidence of homophobia therefore you can't really do anything about a problem that on the surface doesn't exist.

JupiterKid

cambo2008 wrote: »

The difference and why I think it will never change is a player can hide their sexuality,it's obviously a different story with race.

Racism was more of less kicked out because it was a problem that people witnessed.
Because of the lack of openly gay players there is no evidence of homophobia therefore you can't really do anything about a problem that on the surface doesn't exist.

Are you really serious? You're saying that homophobia is a "problem that on the surface doesn't exist?" Really? I think you'll find that it IS a problem, and one that needs to be tackled.

The sort of attitude that "it'll never change" is morally bankrupt. It can change and I sincerely hope that it does - becuase there are dozens, probably hundreds of closted gay sportspeople whose being in the closet is eating them up inside.

I know, I've been there myself.

Will I Amnt

JupiterKid wrote: »

Are you really serious. You're saying that homophobia is a "problem that on the surface doesn't exist?" Really? I think you'll find that it IS a problem, and one that needs to be tackled.

When I say on the surface I mean there's no real evidence of it from fans because of the fact that there is no openly gay players to chant abuse at.

If there were openly gay players you would find there would be action taken against homophobic chanting,it's a bit of a catch 22 situation.

Paparazzo

sunflower27 wrote: »

The story about Justin is really sad. Such a promising career cut short.

Had not heard of that before.

Justin Fashanu was 37. Sad, but hardly a career cut short

Chucky the tree

And it had nothing to do with the treatment he got from fans either.

TylerIE

Chucky the tree wrote: »

And it had nothing to do with the treatment he got from fans either.

Maybe not fans, but homophobia apparently broke him....

"I would not advise any gay professional footballer to come out," wrote the full-back and captain of Bayern Munich."I would fear that he could end up like Justin Fashanu who after he outed himself was driven into such a corner that he ended up committing suicide," he wrote.

Philipp Lahm

Justin's own brother John publicly denounced him: "My gay brother is an outcast", John told The Voice. ......

"A bloody poof!" That's how his manager at Nottingham Forest football club, Brian Clough, described his £1 million star player, Justin Fashanu. Homophobic attitudes like that unsettled Justin. Although he laughed them off, Clough's sneers hurt inside, making it hard for him to concentrate on playing 'the beautiful game'. No wonder his football career nose-dived.

Edited version of what was published in the The Guardian ("Star who was all played out", 5 May 1998) and Washington Blade ("A bright shining star burned out too soon, 11 September 1998")

4leto

TylerIE wrote: »

Maybe not fans, but homophobia apparently broke him....

Philipp Lahm

Edited version of what was published in the The Guardian ("Star who was all played out", 5 May 1998) and Washington Blade ("A bright shining star burned out too soon, 11 September 1998")

Fukcing hell just fukcing hell
Can you imagine been so lonely

Jesus Wept

Brian Clough is/was an old moron.

TylerIE

4leto wrote: »

Fukcing hell just fukcing hell
Can you imagine been so lonely

As someone alluded to earlier... any professional gay sports star who wants to have a relationship probably does [experience this loneliness]. They will likely look to see the experiences of other gay or lesbian sports personalities and look what they find - consistant advice not to come out, and bad experiences by many who do.

And stretching off topic but its the experience of gay and lesbian youths throughout Ireland and the World. Look at the rash of suicides among LGBT teens in the USA last year, and plenty in Ireland just the evidence is anecdotal. Talk to many teenage boys and girls who arent stereotypically gay (and some who are) about what how it felt the night before they came out to their father, and you'll soon find out...

Talk to the boy whose boyfriend of over two years just died suddenly, but whom nobody knew about the relationship cause they played for the same GAA Team, and "ya couldnt have the parish talking about the qu--rs in the gaa club".. ask how he feels about not being able to say goodbye properly? or not being recognized at the funeral? and not getting to participate? and not being able to talk or tell anyone?

That sort of loneliness is experienced by many in Ireland...

LGBT sports people can play a huge role in making it much easier for those growing up gay...

Wolfe Tone

mikemac wrote: »

You're thinking of Frank Stagg, his brother
Active in the IRA and died in a British jail

Died on hunger strike after 67 days, half the family wanted him buried in the republican plot (Frank also wanted that), Emmet (and the govt) wanted him in the family plot to keep republicans out of the funeral and they got their way after basically nicking the body. They covered the grave with cement to prevent his body being moved but republicans subsequently dug a tunnel to retrieve his coffin and buried it in the republican plot as he had wanted, with a proper send off.

/random info

I dont blame footballers for keeping their sexuality under wraps, if the fans will chant about dead people or call managers paedos you can be sure there would be homophobic abuse.

4leto

TylerIE wrote: »

As someone alluded to earlier... any professional gay sports star who wants to have a relationship probably does. They will likely look to see the experiences of other gay or lesbian sports personalities and look what they find - consistant advice not to come out, and bad experiences by many who do.

And stretching off topic but its the experience of gay and lesbian youths throughout Ireland and the World. Look at the rash of suicides among LGBT teens in the USA last year, and plenty in Ireland just the evidence is anecdotal. Talk to many teenage boys and girls who arent stereotypically gay (and some who are) about what how it felt the night before they came out to their father, and you'll soon find out...

Talk to the boy whose boyfriend of over two years just died suddenly, but whom nobody knew about the relationship cause they played for the same GAA Team, and "ya couldnt have the parish talking about the qu--rs in the gaa club".. ask how he feels about not being able to say goodbye properly? or not being recognized at the funeral? and not getting to participate? and not being able to talk or tell anyone?

That sort of loneliness is experienced by many in Ireland...

LGBT sports people can play a huge role in making it much easier for those growing up gay...

A beautiful piece of writing, and I absolutely agree, but the thing about sports fans, of which i am one, it is a herding experience, so we do as we are instructed, so the people on the top of the herd really have to be the ultimate men, and be incredibly brave.

Braver then I ever could be, but our history supports them, it will be OK, just a little awkward for a while. But 9% of the population is a very big minority.

4leto

cambo2008 wrote: »

The difference and why I think it will never change is a player can hide their sexuality,it's obviously a different story with race.

Racism was more of less kicked out because it was a problem that people witnessed.
Because of the lack of openly gay players there is no evidence of homophobia therefore you can't really do anything about a problem that on the surface doesn't exist.

True,,but why isn't it on the surface, why is sport only for the hetro's, and racism as disgusting as it is, is obviously hateful. Homosexuality is hidden, that does most certainly not mean it does not exist.

That does not mean they are less entitled to live the Human happy experience
of inclusiveness, our sexuality is most our lives, Who cares who you are fkucing.