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Phoenix Park main road closed for up to 3 months
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20-09-2011 6:24pm#1
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The business of being a park is hardly effected. So that's irrelevant.
People seem to find it hard grasp that this is a major road. 20k cars a day on a single lane. Compare this to the M50 bridge of 90k cars a day on 3 or 4 lanes on a motorway. Its not like there are any other options for D.15 into city center either. Two very narrow old roads, Blackhorse ave, or Chapelizod. The Navan road should be the main route really, but its completely ruined as they reduced it from two down to a single lane, for the bus lanes.
You're failing to grasp that it's a park first and foremost!
The business of the park being a park and hosting the country's main zoo would be affected more if the work was done in the summer. Given that lots of people get to the park using coaches, cars, and the tour buses, I'm baffled at how you think you can dispute that the business of being a park would be more affected if the work was done in its busy season.
As for options: There's two traffic routes directly towards town (even if one is partly a minor road), there's other routes via the M50, there's the train and the (soon-to-be-better) buses, and there's cycling. You'll have to try again if you're claiming there's no other options.
Also a bit of responsibility has to be taken by the people who moved out to the areas around D15 and even beyond and Fingal for allowing such car centric development. BTW in saying that I would exclude people in and around Hansfield who are still waiting for access to their train station.
Anyway, the way you're talking you'd think they were closing the park's main road when they are upgrading it for the commuting traffic.No I'm talking about the road thats been closed for vehicle use for years.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=phoenix+park+dublin&hl=en&ll=53.348957,-6.338256&spn=0.000003,0.001725&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.780156,56.513672&vpsrc=6&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.349116,-6.338371&panoid=Z0U7hn3JU5EhO0ZTIzIr3A&cbp=12,122.05,,0,5.18
Repaving it wouldn't be worth it for the time saving distance and opening up more junctions around there could hinder the flow around the park.0 -
You're failing to grasp that it's a park first and foremost!
The business of the park being a park and hosting the country's main zoo would be affected more if the work was done in the summer. Given that lots of people get to the park using coaches, cars, and the tour buses, I'm baffled at how you think you can dispute that the business of being a park would be more affected if the work was done in its busy season.
All the places the tour buses go, and park, like Visitor center, aras an uachtarain, Popes cross and the Zoo aren't effected by the road closures. You can get to them all, and park in their car parks, all, same as you ever could. I suspect you don't actually use these places or you'd have known that. You can get to all the football pitches, or the usual places people run, walk etc. NONE of that is effected. Ditto the playground etc. What bit of the park you'd use as a park or a visitor or as a family can you not get to?As for options: There's two traffic routes directly towards town (even if one is partly a minor road), there's other routes via the M50, there's the train and the (soon-to-be-better) buses, and there's cycling. You'll have to try again if you're claiming there's no other options.
Well you'd got to consider the past debacles. Considering anytime they've closed traffic access in the park in any major way, like the one way system for the Blackhorse Ave roadworks, or the snow last year, caused absolute mayhem, with tailbacks of hours. It pretty obvious the issue is the capacity of the other road options, and the increase in journey times. The other roads simply can't handle that amount of traffic.
It very simplistic to think everyone can hop on a bicycle, bus or train. I'm lucky that I can, use all three. But then even though I cycle from D15 to D4, I can only do it a couple of times a week at most. I can use bus and trains some of the time but then it adds at minimum an hour a day to my commute. So 5 hours a week extra just sitting on a bus or standing on a train. Assuming that of course, I'm just doing a standard journey into town and back. Last week, I had numerous stops to do, and it would have taken 3 or 4 hours a day on public transport vs a car. If somes ones ill, like, fighting a chest infection, standing on open platforms, for hours waiting for trains isn't going to be an option either.Also a bit of responsibility has to be taken by the people who moved out to the areas around D15 and even beyond and Fingal for allowing such car centric development. BTW in saying that I would exclude people in and around Hansfield who are still waiting for access to their train station.
Anyway, the way you're talking you'd think they were closing the park's main road when they are upgrading it for the commuting traffic.
I completely agree with you about planning, but that's a national failure, not unique to D.15.
But its hard to plan for utter stupidity. They've a habit of closing roads, that they don't actually need to. They closed parts of the park for the Blackhorse Ave works, when it didn't actually effect the park at all. Completely pointless. They closed the castle knock stretch and gate for considerable amounts of time when there was no work being done at all. So they've no track record in doing things with common sense. Why are they closing the whole main road in one go. Its open in the middle at the Phoenix monument anyway. So they are going to do it two halves. Perhaps they intend doing both simultaneously, hence it makes sense. But I suspect they only work on limited stretches at a time. But only doing half of it at a time would be much less disruptive and give them more options with traffic flows.
But these less traffic everywhere these days. Maybe it won't be so bad, and they do a super job. Lets wait and see.Repaving it wouldn't be worth it for the time saving distance and opening up more junctions around there could hinder the flow around the park.
Why repave it? I remember when it used to be open, and it has the same surface it had back then. It used to be handy to avoid the tailback from people going out that gate when it was open, or going down the military road when that was open.
Last few times they've closed of parts of the park, its made commuting on the bike much nicer. Hopefully it will be the same this time. Though I use the Kyber rd when on the bike, I'm not sure that will still be an option if cars are using it.0 -
Did you even look at the map? All the places the tour buses go, and park, like Visitor center, aras an uachtarain, Popes cross and the Zoo aren't effected by the road closures. You can get to them all, and park in their car parks, all, same as you ever could. I suspect you don't actually use these places or you'd have known that. You can get to all the football pitches, or the usual places people run, walk etc. NONE of that is effected. Ditto the playground etc. What bit of the park you'd use as a park or a visitor or as a family can you not get to?
Yeah, but the closure of the main avenue will have some of the same affects on visitors as it will on commuters -- adding to congestion, limiting where cars and buses can go and in what direction they can travel, and limit car parking in the park.
I cycle to the park, so I'm not thinking about my self but those who drive or who are driven.Well you'd got to consider the past debacles. Considering anytime they've closed traffic access in the park in any major way, like the one way system for the Blackhorse Ave roadworks, or the snow last year, caused absolute mayhem, with tailbacks of hours. It pretty obvious the issue is the capacity of the other road options, and the increase in journey times. The other roads simply can't handle that amount of traffic.
Short term affects and long term results are different things and one does not automatically lead to the other.
Here's a video on motorway or highway removal --http://www.streetfilms.org/mba-highway-removal/
People adapt. More would cycle and there would be a greater demand for public transport.
And if you want to talk about capacity, the people moving capacity is more important -- for example the bus lane on the Navan Road will have a higher capacity for moving people than the normal traffic lane next to it.It very simplistic to think everyone can hop on a bicycle, bus or train. I'm lucky that I can, use all three. But then even though I cycle from D15 to D4, I can only do it a couple of times a week at most. I can use bus and trains some of the time but then it adds at minimum an hour a day to my commute. So 5 hours a week extra just sitting on a bus or standing on a train. Assuming that of course, I'm just doing a standard journey into town and back. Last week, I had numerous stops to do, and it would have taken 3 or 4 hours a day on public transport vs a car. If somes ones ill, like, fighting a chest infection, standing on open platforms, for hours waiting for trains isn't going to be an option either.
It's a good thing then that I don't think everyone can hop on a bicycle, bus or train. But it's highly simplistic to claim that far more people can't.
Sometimes the people who do the right thing -- as you do -- are the worst people to look at the wider picture. If more people would only do what you do there's be far less congestion.I completely agree with you about planning, but that's a national failure, not unique to D.15.
Around Dublin I think D15 is quite a good example of poor car centric planning made even worse by small roads between it and the city with no room to expand them.Why repave it? I remember when it used to be open, and it has the same surface it had back then. It used to be handy to avoid the tailback from people going out that gate when it was open, or going down the military road when that was open.
Maybe muck and other dirt made it look worse than it is when I've passed it, but it does not look the best. Anyway, as I said, opening more junctions may not be the best for traffic flow and there would be a very limited distance or tie benefit.0 -
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Yeah, but the closure of the main avenue will have some of the same affects on visitors as it will on commuters -- adding to congestion, limiting where cars and buses can go and in what direction they can travel, and limit car parking in the park.
Off peak there isn't congestion in the park. Its purely at peak times. Visitors I assume don't generally go visiting at 8am, or 6pm in the evening. I generally commute off peak, and have no issue going through the park at all.I cycle to the park, so I'm not thinking about my self but those who drive or who are driven.
Short term affects and long term results are different things and one does not automatically lead to the other.
Here's a video on motorway or highway removal --http://www.streetfilms.org/mba-highway-removal/
People adapt. More would cycle and there would be a greater demand for public transport.
I can only talk about my direction experience of past road closures in the park.
I cycle but it certainly took me a quite while to build up the gear, and the distance to cycle a few times a week. I think its a tad unrealistic for large amounts of people to start cycling from nothing to 5 days a week in all weathers. Thats assuming they have secure parking for a bike at work, and a shower or changing facilities.And if you want to talk about capacity, the people moving capacity is more important -- for example the bus lane on the Navan Road will have a higher capacity for moving people than the normal traffic lane next to it.
In my experience the public transport doesn't have capacity at peak either. I could count on my hands the number of times I get a seat on a train at peak times, in 20yrs of using them.It's a good thing then that I don't think everyone can hop on a bicycle, bus or train. But it's highly simplistic to claim that far more people can't.
Good thing I didn't thenSometimes the people who do the right thing -- as you do -- are the worst people to look at the wider picture. If more people would only do what you do there's be far less congestion.
Around Dublin I think D15 is quite a good example of poor car centric planning made even worse by small roads between it and the city with no room to expand them.
Maybe muck and other dirt made it look worse than it is when I've passed it, but it does not look the best. Anyway, as I said, opening more junctions may not be the best for traffic flow and there would be a very limited distance or tie benefit.
Well no arguments about poor planning from me. No idea about traffic flow, I'm just not impressed with past decisions in that regard.
Maybe it will be fine. Soon it will be too expensive to drive anyway.0 -
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I...It's a larger problem off peak given that congested traffic moves slower. As well as closing most roads off peak and at weekends, they also seem to be talking about further restrictions on north / south traffic -- which may partly mean closing off more roads.
Not with you. Whats a larger problem? Personally I prefer cycling in heavy traffic. It moves slow and is more predictable. Other than no traffic. Thats obviously better again.Sorry, the way you were talking about the OPW being against traffic, I wrongly presumed you had a problem with closing it to traffic off peak.
Not at all just do it when there's least disruption (to traffic). To me thats summer time.Closing the road doesn't really impact recreational use of the park at all. No matter when you do it. Well thats my opinion. I've been wrong before.
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