Phoenix Park - Prepare for 3 months of gridlock!

BostonB

Just to note there a notice to say it will be closed from aras to zoo from 20-25th I assume to finish the surface on the this bit, which has a temporary surface signs on it at the moment.

Bunnyhopper

Changes for Phoenix Park motorists

Part of the main road which runs through the centre of the Phoenix Park is to be closed to traffic at weekends until the end of the summer.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0327/phoenixpark.html

This affects the section from the Castleknock Gate to the Phoenix Monument roundabout at the Áras and runs from 10pm Friday to 10pm Sunday, starting from 7th April.

MrJoeSoap

Just after they did the bloody thing up too! Will be closed from 10pm Friday until 10pm Sunday, every weekend until the end of the summer. Brian Hayes was on the news this evening saying that when the road was closed during the recent roadworks, people got to "discover" the other roads in the park, what a copout. The people who this will effect are local people (particularly those in Dublin 15), who know the roads in the park fairly well at this stage I'd imagine.

I honestly can't see any benefit of this section of road being closed on Friday and Saturday nights...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0327/phoenixpark.html

ThisRegard

If it's a success it will probably a permanent thing too. I think it's great, it was a joy to be around that end of the park without traffic. It'll be great for kids and should be a bit of fun with the various events they have planned.

MrJoeSoap

ThisRegard wrote: »

If it's a success it will probably a permanent thing too. I think it's great, it was a joy to be around that end of the park without traffic. It'll be great for kids and should be a bit of fun with the various events they have planned.

During the day, yes it's fair enough and I'm not against it. But I don't see the point of closing it at night too.

BostonB

They should close the Quays too make them more pleasant.

ThisRegard

I know you're being facetious but the park is a park, no matter if people use it heavily for commuting.

MrJoeSoap

ThisRegard wrote: »

I know you're being facetious but the park is a park, no matter if people use it heavily for commuting.

Yes, and the road through the park is the road through the park.

€3m was spent on resurfacing it, so it seems as though closing it off for the entire weekend is a bit of a strange decision.

ThisRegard

Not really, the idea behind it is obvious enough.
The majority of traffic through it after 10pm Friday and Saturday night is probably mostly taxis, it's not like it's going to have a huge affect like it possibly would do during the week. It's not like the whole park is being closed to traffic.

BostonB

The sections they closed previous meant there were less people using those sections and no passing traffic, and at night its poorly lit. Felt a little less safe at night IMO.

MrJoeSoap

ThisRegard wrote: »

Not really, the idea behind it is obvious enough.

The idea that the Minister gave on the 6 o'clock news yesterday was that when the road was closed during the renovations recently, it allowed people to explore and discover area's of the park that they hadn't known before.

"We found that when we restored Chesterfield Avenue over the Christmas and New Year period, that Motorists found new ways into the park, new ways around the park, they also found parts of the park they had never visited before. So it worked very, very well. But we'll continue to monitor it closely"

We all know what people might discover on the back roads in the Phoenix Park on a Friday or Saturday night...

The majority of traffic through it after 10pm Friday and Saturday night is probably mostly taxis, it's not like it's going to have a huge affect like it possibly would do during the week. It's not like the whole park is being closed to traffic.

I drive a motorbike to/from work through the park plenty of weekends, mainly early in the morning or late at night. Now granted it isn't a massive detour, I don't see why they wouldn't just do it during daylight hours. The park at night is a dangerous enough place on a motorbike given the lack of lighting and the deer running across the roads, but taking away the primary road with its fantastic new surface and forcing people onto the narrow, unlit side roads at night is a bit farcical.

It will also add a bit to plenty of people's taxi fares home from town, I'm sure (almost an extra kilometre to detour).

Again, I'm not against the closure as a principle, I just don't see the point of closing it at night.

Shane O' Malley

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

The idea that the Minister gave on the 6 o'clock news yesterday was that when the road was closed during the renovations recently, it allowed people to explore and discover area's of the park that they hadn't known before.

"We found that when we restored Chesterfield Avenue over the Christmas and New Year period, that Motorists found new ways into the park, new ways around the park, they also found parts of the park they had never visited before. So it worked very, very well. But we'll continue to monitor it closely"

We all know what people might discover on the back roads in the Phoenix Park on a Friday or Saturday night...



I use the park for running usually after dark during the week and i have not seen any "dodgy" behaviour all winter. I dont know what rumour you have heard but it would be best if you actually knew something.

The park is being used by walkers/ runners etc until quite late in the evenings and on my route (which follows the outside wall of the park) there is never any trouble.

BostonB

ThisRegard wrote: »

I know you're being facetious but the park is a park, no matter if people use it heavily for commuting.

I don't have problem with them closing it, it actually reduced traffic for me. But if you going to close a main route for an area with a population bigger than limerick or galway city, there should be a traffic plan to handle it. Instead you have the one other main route reduced to one lane, and roadworks planned for the other main route. With a result it pushed traffic out of the area out as far as Lucan and Finglas if the traffic reports are to hbe believed. Around the park and itself and the road outside was quieter as people took long long detours to get around it.

The only impact the last time was it forced me into a longer (nastier) route cycling, as I could no longer cycle up Kyber rd. Also I tried to get through before it got too dark, and there were noticeably less people around, it felt less safe. At the weekends I had to use the North road suspension destroying route when bring the kids to various sports and outings, so I'd avoid that, visit the Zoo less often etc.

So if the point is to make places nicer without cars. Then I suggest doing the same on other major routes and force people into other modes of transport.

MrJoeSoap

Shane O' Malley wrote: »

I use the park for running usually after dark during the week and i have not seen any "dodgy" behaviour all winter. I dont know what rumour you have heard but it would be best if you actually knew something.

The park is being used by walkers/ runners etc until quite late in the evenings and on my route (which follows the outside wall of the park) there is never any trouble.

I know the park ranger and several Gardai who know exactly what happens in the Furry Glen, I'm not saying it is epidemic or obvious, but it does happen regularly.

And anyway, that comment was tongue-in-cheek, my greater concern is the lack of road lighting, poor surface and risk from deer on the side roads.

ThisRegard

BostonB, I'd say all of us have been affected by the recent diversions but by and large they've only been a problem at rush hour Monday to Friday, it hasn't been a problem at weekends so the comparison isn't valid.

BostonB

I was making the point in context of it just being a park not a main road.

Godge

ThisRegard wrote: »

Not really, the idea behind it is obvious enough.
The majority of traffic through it after 10pm Friday and Saturday night is probably mostly taxis, it's not like it's going to have a huge affect like it possibly would do during the week. It's not like the whole park is being closed to traffic.

Unless you are the person who lives in Dublin 15 and needs the taxi to get home. Extra €2-3 per trip so the people of Dublin 15 will have to pay so that all of Dublin gets the privilege of having the main road of the park closed in the middle of the night.

Godge

BostonB wrote: »

I don't have problem with them closing it, it actually reduced traffic for me. But if you going to close a main route for an area with a population bigger than limerick or galway city, there should be a traffic plan to handle it. Instead you have the one other main route reduced to one lane, and roadworks planned for the other main route. With a result it pushed traffic out of the area out as far as Lucan and Finglas if the traffic reports are to hbe believed. Around the park and itself and the road outside was quieter as people took long long detours to get around it.

The only impact the last time was it forced me into a longer (nastier) route cycling, as I could no longer cycle up Kyber rd. Also I tried to get through before it got too dark, and there were noticeably less people around, it felt less safe. At the weekends I had to use the North road suspension destroying route when bring the kids to various sports and outings, so I'd avoid that, visit the Zoo less often etc.

So if the point is to make places nicer without cars. Then I suggest doing the same on other major routes and force people into other modes of transport.

You are absolutely correct. There would be no problem with closing Chesterfield Avenue if there were decent alternative road access routes to the city for many people living in Dublin 15.

Shane O' Malley

Godge wrote: »

You are absolutely correct. There would be no problem with closing Chesterfield Avenue if there were decent alternative road access routes to the city for many people living in Dublin 15.

Whats wrong with the Navan road. ?

Not busy at the weekend.

ThisRegard

Godge wrote: »

Unless you are the person who lives in Dublin 15 and needs the taxi to get home. Extra €2-3 per trip so the people of Dublin 15 will have to pay so that all of Dublin gets the privilege of having the main road of the park closed in the middle of the night.

I do live in Dublin 15. As already been said, there's alternatives, and these alternatives have been put to good use for several months now.

BostonB

Shane O' Malley wrote: »

Whats wrong with the Navan road. ?

Not busy at the weekend.

Every sat lunchtime I cross it and theres always a queue from ashtown to skreen rd for as long as I remember. I dunno about other times.

Turbulent Bill

Closing part of Chesterfield Avenue overnight looks like a stupid decision. I can see the merit of daytime closures as most people are using the Park and traffic is pretty light, though you still need somewhere for people to park. At night though it'll force traffic onto surrounding roads which are dark, poorly-surfaced (outside St. Mary's Hospital is like the surface of the Moon) and should really be left to the deer.

There's a wider question on how we want the Park to be used, i.e., commuter route vs. access vs. preserving natural environment etc. The OPW don't have a clearly-stated position on how they are managing (or want to manage) the park, and how this affects things like traffic management.

Shane O' Malley

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

Closing part of Chesterfield Avenue overnight looks like a stupid decision. I can see the merit of daytime closures as most people are using the Park and traffic is pretty light, though you still need somewhere for people to park. At night though it'll force traffic onto surrounding roads which are dark, poorly-surfaced (outside St. Mary's Hospital is like the surface of the Moon) and should really be left to the deer.

There's a wider question on how we want the Park to be used, i.e., commuter route vs. access vs. preserving natural environment etc. The OPW don't have a clearly-stated position on how they are managing (or want to manage) the park, and how this affects things like traffic management.

Sorry but it is not a commuter route. The deer live there and are allowed free access. The roads are dark because Gas lights are used (Including Chesterfield Avenue) and allows for an area of the city not full of light pollution.

Most weekends of the summer there are races or other activities in the park resulting in road closures so should never be viewed as "always available"

There is plenty of parking but everyone seems to want to park within 50 metres of the Zoo. The park was given to the state as a park and not a navan road bypass.

Shane O' Malley

Anyway, the OPW plan for the park was laid out in a document last year.

The summary is at http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/PPCMP%20Final%20English%20Executive%20Summary.pdf

As you will see, reducing the use of the park for commuter traffic was a key feature.

MrJoeSoap

Shane O' Malley wrote: »

Sorry but it is not a commuter route.

I've used it to get to work for the past three years...

It's not a Navan Road bypass, but it is an alternative route (which just happens to be faster for me).

BostonB

how is it commuters at the weekend?

Godge

Shane O' Malley wrote: »

Sorry but it is not a commuter route. The deer live there and are allowed free access. The roads are dark because Gas lights are used (Including Chesterfield Avenue) and allows for an area of the city not full of light pollution.

Most weekends of the summer there are races or other activities in the park resulting in road closures so should never be viewed as "always available"

There is plenty of parking but everyone seems to want to park within 50 metres of the Zoo. The park was given to the state as a park and not a navan road bypass.

It is a commuter route. Cars drive through it every morning and evening bringing people to and from work. That is a fact. Pretending it is not is acting like a camel with a head in the sand.

There are very good arguments for keeping traffic out of the park but the access from Dublin 15 to the city centre is very poor and the interests of those who need good access to the city have also to be considered.

I am fully in favour of taking traffic out of the park but doing so requires major work on Blackhorse Avenue (especially removing the car-killing humps) and doing something about Knockmaroon and Chapelizod or another alternative.

As you say, the park was given to the state for the use of the people and that means all of the people so if a large number of people need to use the park as a commuter route (or to save a few euro on a taxi fare), why are they less deserving than others who need to use the park for other reasons?

Ireland has been plagued on such issues by nutcases on either side who refuse to see the validity of the other side's view. Whether it is the Shell to Sea campaigners, the people who want their house on their family's land, the developers who want to make a quick buck, the M3 and Glen of the Downs protesters, the inability of most people to compromise and see someone else's view is disastorous.

Turbulent Bill

Shane O' Malley wrote: »

Sorry but it is not a commuter route. The deer live there and are allowed free access. The roads are dark because Gas lights are used (Including Chesterfield Avenue) and allows for an area of the city not full of light pollution.

Most weekends of the summer there are races or other activities in the park resulting in road closures so should never be viewed as "always available"

There is plenty of parking but everyone seems to want to park within 50 metres of the Zoo. The park was given to the state as a park and not a navan road bypass.

As Godge said it is a commuter route - people use it to commute. I don't particularly like that a park is used this way but it's the reality. Personnally I'd love a dedicated car park to serve both the Zoo, Visitor's Centre (existing one is too small) near the perimeter of the Park and leave the rest free for nature, walkers, races etc., but there's no evidence of this happening. Closing a main road just pushes traffic into areas which should be car-free.

Shane O' Malley wrote: »

Anyway, the OPW plan for the park was laid out in a document last year.

The summary is at http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/PPCMP%20Final%20English%20Executive%20Summary.pdf

As you will see, reducing the use of the park for commuter traffic was a key feature.

Thanks for the link, but the OPW's actions contradict this. Why re-surface a road which is almost exclusively used by commuters Mon-Fri, then close it at weekends when the general public could use it for recreation?

ThisRegard

Calling people nutcases, and I can only assume in the context of this thread that you're referring to those in favour of this relatively minor restriction in the grand scheme of things, does you no favours. It's what, say 1.5k of a closure ?

And you're mixing up your metaphors, the ostriches won't be too happy with the camels messing around with their sand.

As to why the road was resurfaced, it simply had to be such was the state of it. You can't read anything else into it, particularly that it was done because it's now officially designated as a national primary route.

I'd guess that most people complaining about it will rarely be put out by it. The old gas lamp road I think it is will be opened so it's a tiny little diversion, hardly the end of access to Dublin 15 as it's almost made out to be.

Shane O' Malley

Godge wrote: »

Ireland has been plagued on such issues by nutcases on either side who refuse to see the validity of the other side's view. Whether it is the Shell to Sea campaigners, the people who want their house on their family's land, the developers who want to make a quick buck, the M3 and Glen of the Downs protesters, the inability of most people to compromise and see someone else's view is disastorous.

Take a deep breath and relax.