Phoenix Park - Prepare for 3 months of gridlock!

horse7

Well to be fair its not unusual for motorists to feel entitled to use the road. .

horse7

Slydice wrote: »

Yep, the navan road is the main road.

Do you know how bad the traffic is on the navan rd(halfway hse to cop shop), or knockmaroon hill.

athtrasna

horse7 wrote: »

Well to be fair its not unusual for motorists to feel entitled to use the road. .

That would be a road under the auspices of the National Roads Authority. The road in the park is privately owned by the OPW. It is up to them whether they will facilitate traffic access or not at any given time.

monument

athtrasna wrote: »

That would be a road under the auspices of the National Roads Authority. The road in the park is privately owned by the OPW. It is up to them whether they will facilitate traffic access or not at any given time.

It's no longer an N-road, so it could be under the city council by now.

spooky donkey

went to the park on sat just gone. Did not know how I was suposed to get to the cross so I just went to farmleigh instead.

Seems a stupid idea..... restricting park access on weekends, whem most would like to use the park.

ThisRegard

Seriously, you couldn't figure out how to get to the cross, first time in the park or just looking for something to complain about?

Access is not restricted, one small section of road is closed to traffic.

horse7

athtrasna wrote: »

That would be a road under the auspices of the National Roads Authority. The road in the park is privately owned by the OPW. It is up to them whether they will facilitate traffic access or not at any given time.

I dont think its privately owned by the opw,they are mearly guardians or caretakers.

monument

horse7 wrote: »

I dont think its privately owned by the opw,they are mearly guardians or caretakers.

Yes, and their remit as guardians of the park is:

“To protect and conserve the historic landscape character of The Phoenix Park and its archaeological, architectural and natural heritage whilst facilitating visitor access, education and interpretation, facilitating the sustainable use of the Park’s resources for recreation and other appropriate activities, encouraging research and maintaining its sense of peace and tranquillity.”

Morag

There are no legal rights of way through the park.
To prevent this from happening they close off the park once a year to all traffic, it usually happens new years day.

BostonB

In fairness they close the park pretty much at random when they feel like it.

During the roadworks on Blackhorse Ave, they closed the North rd, and made the exits one way, when it wasn't effected by the roadworks at all. A few week later under pressure they switched it all back to normal. Or they closed the whole main road for roadworks then worked on it in small sections. They even blocked the cycle path with the fencing.

I wish they just come up with a plan and stick to it.

monument

BostonB wrote: »

The reason this problem exists is because they've over developed D.15 and Meath and have no road system in place to deal with that volume of traffic getting and an out of the city. In fact they've reduced the road capacity as they've increased the demand for it. There isn't enough decent quality alternative routes.

There's no collective "they". It's a large part of the problem -- even if, one that is been slowly changed.

BostonB wrote: »

If they want to keep the park a park they need to put some plan in place to deal with the traffic. Not stick fingers in ears and ignore it.

They (ie the OPW) have a plan: http://www.phoenixpark.ie/publications/conservationmanagementplan/#d.en.9730

Just because you don't like their plan does not mean it is not a plan, and removing capacity of traffic is a method of dealing with it, see this video about "highway removal".

BostonB wrote: »

The Park needs decent a ring road, if you want to keep traffic out of the middle of it. Why not improve the North Road and make that the main road, all the way around, to down to Wellington Road feeding on to Chapelizod road. You could even make the Castleknock Road link to the North road at Ashton. You could free up the center of the park from all through traffic, and loose a neligible amount of the parkland in the process.

Let's forget about all of the problems relating to doing anything with North Road (which there are many), and ask the million dollar question:

Where does the traffic go at the city end of this upgraded North Road?

BostonB

Where is the reduction in capacity in the park for commuters. Its the same as its always been is it not.

Where does it go now? Its goes through the middle of the Park now. The only difference would be it would now run along the perimeter. Where it goes after that wouldn't change.

monument

BostonB wrote: »

Where is the reduction in capacity in the park for commuters. Its the same as its always been is it not.

Where does it go now? Its goes through the middle of the Park now. The only difference would be it would now run along the perimeter. Where it goes after that wouldn't change.

I'd highly doubt that North Road has the same capacity as the main avenue, and North Road already has some of its capacity used.

So, back to the million dollar question:

Where does the traffic go at the city end of your idea of upgrading North Road?

BostonB

monument wrote: »

I'd highly doubt that North Road has the same capacity as the main avenue, and North Road already has some of its capacity used.

So, back to the million dollar question:

Where does the traffic go at the city end of your idea of upgrading North Road?

I've already answered that. Out the same gates it goes now.

Capacity. It has the same 2 lanes. Same entrances and exits?

The only difference is the traffic isn't being dragging through the middle of the park.

monument

BostonB wrote: »

monument wrote: »

I'd highly doubt that North Road has the same capacity as the main avenue, and North Road already has some of its capacity used.

So, back to the million dollar question:

Where does the traffic go at the city end of your idea of upgrading North Road?

I've already answered that. Out the same gates it goes now.

Capacity. It has the same 2 lanes. Same entrances and exits?

The only difference is the traffic isn't being dragging through the middle of the park.

But private car capacity in the city centre is to be reduced -- Luas BXD, pedistrain priority, improved QBC to BRT, cycling lanes etc.

As per one of my posts above -- car capacity already reached critical levels and is only down slightly from that overall and is still at gridlock levels in many places at peak -- With a growing population the car just won't work in the city centre.

donaghs

BostonB wrote: »

I've already answered that. Out the same gates it goes now.

Capacity. It has the same 2 lanes. Same entrances and exits?

The only difference is the traffic isn't being dragging through the middle of the park.

I think its madness to close Chesterfield Avenue in the middle. Unfortunately its a great straight route from Castleknock area to town, no traffic lights etc. The back roads, North Road etc are not comparable. This is blidingly obvious, they are of a lower standard, narrower, and covered with ramps, potholes etc. From my recent visits to the Park, closing the main road in the middle adds more traffic to smaller side roads and makes those parts of the park more dangerous to cyclists and pedestrians.

There is no better way of getting into town from Castleknock and visa versa than through the park. Chapelizod, North road, blackhorse avenue, navan road etc just dont cut it.

Since people are used to using this route, a decent alternative would be nice if its going to be closed at weekends.

ThisRegard

donaghs wrote: »

There is no better way of getting into town from Castleknock and visa versa than through the park. Chapelizod, North road, blackhorse avenue, navan road etc just dont cut it.

Since people are used to using this route, a decent alternative would be nice if its going to be closed at weekends.

All the routes you mentioned are decent alternatives at the weekend, there's no major traffic problems along Chapelizod, Blackhorse Avenue or the Navan Road on Saturdays and Sundays so there's no reason to be looking for alternatives, you have 3 right there.

You hit the nail on the head on why the closure of the very small section of road is a good thing. You said that it's a great straight route with no traffic lights and you purely see the closure as an inconvenience to you as opposed to the benefits to the recreational users. It shouldn't be seen as such a route and the closure makes the centre of the park much more pleasant.

It's not the closure of this small section that makes the other roads around the park more dangerous, it's the idiots that speed on them that do this.

donaghs

ThisRegard wrote: »

All the routes you mentioned are decent alternatives at the weekend, there's no major traffic problems along Chapelizod, Blackhorse Avenue or the Navan Road on Saturdays and Sundays so there's no reason to be looking for alternatives, you have 3 right there.

You hit the nail on the head on why the closure of the very small section of road is a good thing. You said that it's a great straight route with no traffic lights and you purely see the closure as an inconvenience to you as opposed to the benefits to the recreational users. It shouldn't be seen as such a route and the closure makes the centre of the park much more pleasant.

It's not the closure of this small section that makes the other roads around the park more dangerous, it's the idiots that speed on them that do this.

As a walker, runner, cyclist, parent in the Park, I've no problem with the main road being open. There's plenty of space for all that. But as a infrequent car commuter and car visitor, its IMHO an unnecessary pain.

BostonB

monument wrote: »

But private car capacity in the city centre is to be reduced -- Luas BXD, pedistrain priority, improved QBC to BRT, cycling lanes etc.

As per one of my posts above -- car capacity already reached critical levels and is only down slightly from that overall and is still at gridlock levels in many places at peak -- With a growing population the car just won't work in the city centre.

Thats a different topic. We're not talking about the entire city. Just the park. If you want to keep cars out of the center of the park, it could be done easily by running them around the perimeter of it, rather then running them through the center of it.

donaghs wrote: »

I think its madness to close Chesterfield Avenue in the middle. Unfortunately its a great straight route from Castleknock area to town, no traffic lights etc. The back roads, North Road etc are not comparable. This is blidingly obvious, they are of a lower standard, narrower, and covered with ramps, potholes etc. From my recent visits to the Park, closing the main road in the middle adds more traffic to smaller side roads and makes those parts of the park more dangerous to cyclists and pedestrians....

Theres no lights the other way either, and tbh it often quicker at peak as all the sheep queue as far back as the phoenix monument while the side road is completely clear. Theres little in it either way. The assumption would be they'd fix the side road obviously. How wide does it need to be? Its single lane anyway, with only cars on it.

If the cars were all on the side road, there rest of the park would be almost completely clear of cars for those pedestrians and cyclists.

jack presley

I don't understand the benefits to the recreational user on having the section closed. I'm a jogger and have no desire to run on the road. The paths are fine for me.

ThisRegard

donaghs wrote: »

As a walker, runner, cyclist, parent in the Park, I've no problem with the main road being open. There's plenty of space for all that. But as a infrequent car commuter and car visitor, its IMHO an unnecessary pain.

If you're a self admitted infrequent commuter and car visitor how can it be a pain and inconvenience ?

As a parent I'm sure you've had the worry of crossing the road from one side of the park to another ? The plenty of space is effectively cut in half by the main road, the small bit of road closure opens the park right up.

jack presley wrote: »

I don't understand the benefits to the recreational user on having the section closed. I'm a jogger and have no desire to run on the road. The paths are fine for me.

It's nothing to do with that. Do you stick to the one side of the park ? If not you know it can be difficult to cross from one side to the other, and if you're a parent you'll know how much of a pain it is to cross with a child, a pram or whatever little bike they have with them, and a couple of dogs in tow. The road gives the feel of an artificial barrier through the park.

BostonB

ThisRegard wrote: »

All the routes you mentioned are decent alternatives at the weekend, there's no major traffic problems along Chapelizod, Blackhorse Avenue or the Navan Road on Saturdays and Sundays so there's no reason to be looking for alternatives, you have 3 right there. ...

My experience of the Navan Rd, and Chapelizod is that theres queues on both at the weekend. The Navan rd I cross every sat just after lunch and its queued all the way down to Park motors. I go through park to miss it (its more direct anyway) and stop for a walk. Even Blackhorse is often queued at both ends.

Just to note there two different topics here which is the closure at the weekend. Which doesn't effect to many really. The 2nd issue is a better traffic plan for the park for the weekdays, or in general.

monument

BostonB wrote: »

Thats a different topic. We're not talking about the entire city. Just the park. If you want to keep cars out of the center of the park, it could be done easily by running them around the perimeter of it, rather then running them through the center of it.

No, it's not a different topic, and you know it's not. If it was a different topic we could take about the park in isolation to what happens on the roads around the park -- but I'm sure you don't want that do you?

The reality is capacity is to be lost in the city centre permanently, so losing capacity in the park just off-peak isn't a problem.

BostonB wrote: »

Theres no lights the other way either, and tbh it often quicker at peak as all the sheep queue as far back as the phoenix monument while the side road is completely clear. Theres little in it either way. The assumption would be they'd fix the side road obviously. How wide does it need to be? Its single lane anyway, with only cars on it.

If the cars were all on the side road, there rest of the park would be almost completely clear of cars for those pedestrians and cyclists.

You're having a laugh it's a park, there's no need for a motorway to nowhere. The park has lost large banks of land in the past and there's no way your idea would be tolerated.

jack presley wrote: »

I don't understand the benefits to the recreational user on having the section closed. I'm a jogger and have no desire to run on the road. The paths are fine for me.

You might be fine, but lots of joggers seem to think cycle tracks are jogging paths -- so opening the road up gives users of the park more space.

Stark

jack presley wrote: »

I don't understand the benefits to the recreational user on having the section closed. I'm a jogger and have no desire to run on the road. The paths are fine for me.

Letting the kids play freely without worrying that they're going to be run over by cars doing 80km/hr I guess.

ThisRegard

BostonB wrote: »

My experience of the Navan Rd, and Chapelizod is that theres queues on both at the weekend. The Navan rd I cross every sat just after lunch and its queued all the way down to Park motors. I go through park to miss it (its more direct anyway) and stop for a walk. Even Blackhorse is often queued at both ends.

I've never seen queues on Blackhorse Avenue on weekends, only weekday evenings when it can be quite brutal and I've sat in it almost on a daily basis. But when I've been on the Navan Road outbound weekends and traffic is back to around Cabra, it still moves fairly well.

But even if it is not moving at all, you have Blackhorse Avenue and the North Road anyway.

BostonB

monument wrote: »

No, it's not a different topic, and you know it's not. If it was a different topic we could take about the park in isolation to what happens on the roads around the park -- but I'm sure you don't want that do you?

The reality is capacity is to be lost in the city centre permanently, so losing capacity in the park just off-peak isn't a problem.




You're having a laugh it's a park, there's no need for a motorway to nowhere. The park has lost large banks of land in the past and there's no way your idea would be tolerated.




You might be fine, but lots of joggers seem to think cycle tracks are jogging paths -- so opening the road up gives users of the park more space.

LOL so its a motorway now is it. Hyperbole and all the rest. The road already exists so there is no loss of land. It connects to all the current connections. Nothing needs to change. Other actually making its less a 4x4 track. Theres ramps on that road Eddie the Eagle could use.

donaghs

ThisRegard wrote: »

If you're a self admitted infrequent commuter and car visitor how can it be a pain and inconvenience ?

Because any time I need to get from one of the park to other at the weekend, (visiting the zoo, farmleigh etc), its blocked in the middle. Or pick someone up from Heuston Station etc. Its an annoyance knowing that once you could drive straight from A to B, and now you have to go a roundabout route with ramps etc.

ThisRegard wrote: »

As a parent I'm sure you've had the worry of crossing the road from one side of the park to another ? The plenty of space is effectively cut in half by the main road, the small bit of road closure opens the park right up.

I'm not that bothered about crossing the road. There are suitable places at the roundabouts. I'd agree that a main road through the Park isnt ideal, but without a better alternative, I'd prefer to have the main road. The NIMBY's have already destroyed Blackhorse Avenue with giant ramps. The Chaplizod Road from the village to Castleknock is effectively a small country road in a new suburb, and I find it congested more often than not - at the strangest of times.

And the Navan Road from Phibsboro to near the Ashtown gate always seems to be congested to me, at weekends too. Except late at night. Been in too many traffic jams there.

monument

BostonB wrote: »

LOL so its a motorway now is it. Hyperbole and all the rest. The road already exists so there is no loss of land. It connects to all the current connections. Nothing needs to change. Other actually making its less a 4x4 track. Theres ramps on that road Eddie the Eagle could use.

Hyperbole sure, then: Road to nowhere.

Yes, some thing does need to change -- it the park, to focus on its proper use, and in the city because cars just can't work as the population grows. With the continuing permanent capacity loss in the city centre, something is changing. Dismissing this as an unrelated issue all you like, but then you're just not dealing with the issue.

Now, with your plan of an upgrade to North Road there's no land loss? Because a few posts ago you were talking about losing "a neligible amount of the parkland in the process" for building your upgraded road to nowhere.

donaghs wrote: »

Because any time I need to get from one of the park to other at the weekend, (visiting the zoo, farmleigh etc), its blocked in the middle. Or pick someone up from Heuston Station etc. Its an annoyance knowing that once you could drive straight from A to B, and now you have to go a roundabout route with ramps etc.

Where exactly do you live? How can the weekend closure affect both trips to the Zoo and Farmleigh?

donaghs wrote: »

I'd agree that a main road through the Park isnt ideal, but without a better alternative, I'd prefer to have the main road.

It's a park. Use of the park has to come before your preference of a direct route in picking somebody up from a train station etc.

donaghs wrote: »

The NIMBY's have already destroyed Blackhorse Avenue with giant ramps.

Ramps are usually put in because some people can't behave while driving. Blame "NIMBY's" (sic) all you like but they are not the reason for ramps having to be put in.

spooky donkey

ThisRegard wrote: »

Seriously, you couldn't figure out how to get to the cross, first time in the park or just looking for something to complain about?

Access is not restricted, one small section of road is closed to traffic.

been to the park many times and mainly only ever went to placess off that long straight road.
When I turned at farmleigh I thought perhaps that road went on around but then i rememberd last time I tried to go near that fort that the road was blocked at the bendy bit.
I just did not want the hassell of driving around a ring road to find it also blocked off.

BostonB

monument wrote: »

Hyperbole sure, then: Road to nowhere.

Yes, some thing does need to change -- it the park, to focus on its proper use, and in the city because cars just can't work as the population grows. With the continuing permanent capacity loss in the city centre, something is changing. Dismissing this as an unrelated issue all you like, but then you're just not dealing with the issue.

Now, with your plan of an upgrade to North Road there's no land loss? Because a few posts ago you were talking about losing "a neligible amount of the parkland in the process" for building your upgraded road to nowhere. ...

If its a road to nowhere how have we been using it for the last 6 months when the main road was closed for resurfacing...If you consider that, you could claim its even been trialled already.

I was talking about a better link between the castleknock rd and the north road at ashtown losing a negligible amount of the parkland. Not the hyperbole highway.