Breaking news on the Padova Investigation

Chips Lovell

Interesting news:

Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera has published details of the international investigation into the activities of Dr. Michele Ferrari and his many clients, including Lance Armstrong, Denis Menchov and Michele Scarponi.

Chips Lovell

On second thoughts, I'm going to move this to a new thread as it involves more than just Armstrong.

Chips Lovell

Raimondo Scimone is Menchov's agent.

NickDrake

Oh dear god. What an absolute disgrace. Dragging cycling through the dirt again.

4leto

I have mixed views on this, first and foremost performance enhancement drugs are totally wrong they should be stamped out and anyone who is caught should automatically receive a life ban, full stop.

But
It is fair to say drugs was endemic in cycling, a cancer as Paul Kimmage called it. So to be a top performer in the Armstrong era, you had little choice but to do drugs, as all the top performers were doing them.

I think the real corruption of the sport was the ICA, they really should have got to grips with the problem before it became the mess it did. So cycling is so tarnished, everyone associates it with drugs.

Armstrong and any other drug cheat, who were found out, of that era should have all their titles stripped from them.

Diarmuid

Armstrong seemingly called Ferrari with the code name of 'Number One'.

He seems like more of a Number Two to me.

Coronal

4leto wrote: »

But
It is fair to say drugs was endemic in cycling, a cancer as Paul Kimmage called it. So to be a top performer in the Armstrong era, you had little choice but to do drugs, as all the top performers were doing them.

It would be correct to say that, rather than fair. There's still no excuse for cheating.

4leto wrote: »

I think the real corruption of the sport was the ICA, they really should have got to grips with the problem before it became the mess it did. So cycling is so tarnished, everyone associates it with drugs.

This is a second, parallel issue, and one that will take many years to sort out. That said, this year's tour was widely claimed to be the cleanest in quite some time, so the tide is turning as we speak.

4leto wrote: »

Armstrong and any other drug cheat, who were found out, of that era should have all their titles stripped from them.

This is the problem; they haven't all been found out. There's a maximum of 7 (?) years in which one can be stripped of a title, after that it's purely academic as far as that goes.

I find the non-sporting side of the investigation interesting, the bit involving money laundering and fraud. I'd never really thought about it before. I presume that's how most of the results of these cases will come to light. Can the UCI revoke the titles based on evidence of this, assuming that there are no records of riders having actually doped, or will it just be treated as a purely criminal case?

4leto

I don't see why there should be a maximun of 7 years, that rule or law can be changed, I would absolutely assume there would be wide public support for such a measure, everyone hates cheats.

I know there is little hope in catching all the cheats of that era, but such a measure of stripping the title of those who are caught would certainly send out a message to any aspiring cyclist or sports person that drugs are a no no. Also the public would get the message that finally they are cleaning cycling up.

So even if they finally have caught up with Lance Armstrong history will still record him as 7 times winner of the tour de france. I think that is wrong.

alexanderomahon

At least cycling is now active in trying to do something. What are the soccer authorities doing?

Guybrush T

4leto wrote: »

So even if they finally have caught up with Lance Armstrong history will still record him as 7 times winner of the tour de france. I think that is wrong.

It's not great, but what do you do when you've stripped his title? Give it to Mr Clean Jan Ullrich? Or keep going back and call the guy who finished 8th or 9th the 'winner'.

And then what if he's found to have used drugs when his warts and all biography comes out in 10 years, do you re-write history again?

The past is the past, Lance crossed the finish line first 7 times in a row, competing with similarly 'assisted' riders. Leave the records as they stand, and if you really have a hair up your (general you, not 4leto specifically) bum about doping, concentrate on cleaning up cycling now.

Inquitus

Guybrush T wrote: »

It's not great, but what do you do when you've stripped his title? Give it to Mr Clean Jan Ullrich? Or keep going back and call the guy who finished 8th or 9th the 'winner'.

And then what if he's found to have used drugs when his warts and all biography comes out in 10 years, do you re-write history again?

The past is the past, Lance crossed the finish line first 7 times in a row, competing with similarly 'assisted' riders. Leave the records as they stand, and if you really have a hair up your (general you, not 4leto specifically) bum about doping, concentrate on cleaning up cycling now.

That would be all well and good were it not for the fact it sucked young, up and coming riders into a murky world of potential life endangerment while taking / performing, very unsafe medicines / medical practices - from Amphetamine abuses in the early years to EPO, Blood Doping etc. in modern times. Countless riders may not have died if they didn't have to dope just to keep up with the rest of the peleton.

4leto

Guybrush T wrote: »

It's not great, but what do you do when you've stripped his title? Give it to Mr Clean Jan Ullrich? Or keep going back and call the guy who finished 8th or 9th the 'winner'.

And then what if he's found to have used drugs when his warts and all biography comes out in 10 years, do you re-write history again?

The past is the past, Lance crossed the finish line first 7 times in a row, competing with similarly 'assisted' riders. Leave the records as they stand, and if you really have a hair up your (general you, not 4leto specifically) bum about doping, concentrate on cleaning up cycling now.

Yes, give it to the next guy and if he is found out then do it again, it is the message I want sent out, that cheats even after their career is over will still have to be looking over their shoulders.

We try to teach our kids cheating and drugs are wrong but with the likes of Armstrong getting away with it, what message does that send out. You can't touch his wealth but you could strip him from the sports records.

Guybrush T

Inquitus wrote: »

That would be all well and good were it not for the fact it sucked young, up and coming riders into a murky world of potential life endangerment while taking / performing, very unsafe medicines / medical practices - from Amphetamine abuses in the early years to EPO, Blood Doping etc. in modern times. Countless riders may not have died if they didn't have to dope just to keep up with the rest of the peleton.

And do they all come back to life when you've stripped Lance of his titles? If not your post is a bit of a non-sequitur.

If you are claiming that ripping up the last 10 or 20 years of cycling results will discourage future cyclists from doping, it would be nice to see evidence of it, not just assertion.

Lumen

There are arguments that lifetime bans are excessively punitive, for various reasons.

Thing is, it's only a lifetime ban from pro cycling.

There would be nothing to stop said doper from taking up distance running, or triathlon. Ha!

Chips Lovell

Report from Shane Stokes. He says La Corriere della Sera named Karpets and Gusev in addition to Armstrong, Menchov and Scarponi:

According to Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, Ferrari set up a company in the Neuchatel region of Switzerland called Health and Performance. It was created on February 26th 1996 and, according to the paper, is thought to be linked to a doping ring allegedly coordinated by Ferrari and reportedly involving riders such as Armstrong, Denis Menchov, Vladimir Gusev, Vladimir Karpets, Michele Scarponi and others.

4leto

Guybrush T wrote: »

And do they all come back to life when you've stripped Lance of his titles? If not your post is a bit of a non-sequitur.

If you are claiming that ripping up the last 10 or 20 years of cycling results will discourage future cyclists from doping, it would be nice to see evidence of it, not just assertion.

Its not only a question of discouragement, perhaps such a move of stripping them of their titles will not discourage young cyclists from drug use, I don't really care whether it does or not.

But what I do care about is getting away with it. In my books Armstrong was caught a while now, so now we know his 7 times win was assisted, now it can be proven, so does he just shrug his shoulders and say "well I am caught now" but my record still stands.

I say such an action of stripping titles sends a clear message out, to not just cyclists, but all sportsmen that, doping in sports, is unacceptable when ever you did it.

Cycling should lead with this measure because lets face it, cycling is the most notorious for drug cheats.

Junior

To quote another site

Still, this is an Italian investigation so it may suddenly go away for another year, only to resurface with a few more accusations and telephone recordings and then disappear again. Menchov and Scarponi are still riding and have no plans to stop.