Pagan Pride

Urizen · 21-09-2011 6:55pm #1

I've been talking to a couple of friends of mine in Dallas, Texas, who have been involved in this year's Pagan Pride Festival. It sounds like a fantastic way to grow the positive public image of all forms of modern paganism. It's got me thinking, has something similar ever been attempted in Ireland? There's plenty of pagans around. Why isn't this a thing?

If it DOES exist, please link me to it. And if it doesn't, is anyone else interested in trying to get something similar off the ground?

Urizen · 25-10-2011 1:34am

I hate to bump, but this has gotten 200 views and no responses. I find this shocking. Seriously, does no one but me care about this at all?

Morag · 25-10-2011 1:44am

There are multiple events that happen at various times of the year all over the country.
This time of the year there certainly is media attention.

Do you think there is a need for a higher profile for pagans in general in the country?
When do you think current events could be publicised better?
What would be the goals of such an event?
Where would it be held?
How would you be defining pagan?

Urizen · 25-10-2011 2:45pm

Sharrow wrote: »

There are multiple events that happen at various times of the year all over the country.
This time of the year there certainly is media attention.

Well, I originally posted this in September...

Sharrow wrote: »

Do you think there is a need for a higher profile for pagans in general in the country?

Absolutely. Pagans, as an umbrella term, are still classified as a minority, but there really does seem to be an awful lot of us. And we don't get any respect.

Sharrow wrote: »

When do you think current events could be publicised better?

I have known of literally two event that took place over the last year. So if there have been more, they could use better advertising.

Sharrow wrote: »

What would be the goals of such an event?

Raising public awareness of modern paganism and increasing our own pride in our various faiths, as well as generating a feeling of inclusiveness between different Pagan paths.

Sharrow wrote: »

Where would it be held?

I haven't been planning this, but I know that certain areas in Dublin town allow for gatherings such as this under certain circumstances. I'm sure we'd find somewhere.

Sharrow wrote: »

How would you be defining pagan?

Anyone who feels they are a pagan, as a general rule, is. While we have wildly disparate beliefs, from Astratu and Wicca to Hellenic Polytheism, Druidism and Shamanism, we all call ourselves pagan. Anyone who wants in, can get in.

This would NOT be an exclusive event for a single path, say, Wiccans. In my mind, this would be about inclusiveness; cooperation between pagan paths and with the wider community as well.

I hope that was concise enough to answer your questions.

CuAnnan · 28-10-2011 8:28am

Urizen wrote: »

as well as generating a feeling of inclusiveness between different Pagan paths.

Could you explain what you mean by that, as I don't follow.

Urizen · 28-10-2011 6:25pm

CuAnnan wrote: »

Could you explain what you mean by that, as I don't follow.

Well, the way I see it, the different pagan paths we all follow, while often contradictory, are all under the umbrella of Paganism. Also, to the outside observer, we're all lumped together as a single minority group. I honestly feel that we should actively try to engage each other more and, you know, get along. You get me?

Tabnabs · 30-10-2011 8:11pm

We struggle to get along within our own religions as it is TBH, for the reconstructionist folk, there isn't even consensus on what's applicable...

You want people to march under a banner as broad as Paganism , are you prepared for the wrangling from the outset?!

Urizen · 31-10-2011 1:51am

Tabnabs wrote: »

We struggle to get along within our own religions as it is TBH, for the reconstructionist folk, there isn't even consensus on what's applicable...

This is entirely my point. Why are we so divided?

Tabnabs wrote: »

You want people to march under a banner as broad as Paganism, are you prepared for the wrangling from the outset?!

What wrangling do you mean? I would certainly encourage people. I wouldn't try to coerce them. Frankly, if they need coercion, they've probably missed the point. The main logistical problem I'd foresee is actually locating the people to get involved, getting the word out.

Tabnabs · 31-10-2011 9:35pm

Urizen wrote: »

This is entirely my point. Why are we so divided?

Because you and I have very different gods/esses and have entirely separate world views. Looking at the UK event, the wiccan symbolism and blessing. It may as well be jewish or zoroastrian for the connection I feel to it.

To my mind, pagan pride = wiccan pride (and that's not meant in any disrespectful manner). So is largely irrelevant to me.

Even the 'Do what you will, as long as it harms none' creed of the PF is too much for many to accept.

Urizen wrote: »

What wrangling do you mean? I would certainly encourage people. I wouldn't try to coerce them. Frankly, if they need coercion, they've probably missed the point. The main logistical problem I'd foresee is actually locating the people to get involved, getting the word out.

The pagan scene in Dublin is fractious enough without getting the "community" to march together in unity :pac:

CuAnnan · 31-10-2011 9:43pm

Urizen wrote: »

This is entirely my point. Why are we so divided?

Because we are.

CuAnnan · 31-10-2011 10:03pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Even the 'Do what you will, as long as it harms none' creed of the PF is too much for many to accept.

here here.

Morag · 01-11-2011 3:34pm

Many events run and the details of them are on facebook, seems many irish pagans took to that platform like a duck to water. I will try and throw notices about them up here when I see them.

As for why it's do divided, people just do thier own thing and too many noses have gotten out of joint over the years with inter personal spats happening.

From people accusing witches of murder to the police, to druids trying to crown a new high king to people just not minding thier own business and having the cop on to say
your path is not my path.

I've heard Heatens/Astru called evil for the blood letting in blots, I've heard Wiccan/witches called perverts for working naked, and all the squabbling between druid factions is something I've given up on ever keeping track of, never mind figuring out.

Yes impartial events on the scale of some of the ones which happen in the UK would be awesome, I know someone who's invovled with the twice yearly fire festivals in Scottland and they are amazing and great for building community but there's not the same amount of people willing to put their shoulder to the wheel here in my experience.

Urizen · 02-11-2011 1:08am

Sharrow wrote: »

Yes impartial events on the scale of some of the ones which happen in the UK would be awesome

I'll respond to the rest of the comments tomorrow, as I'm exhausted, but I just want to say YES. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Nothing denominational, just a basic 'Oh look, there's X number of pagans here, all of different paths, all getting along.'

Sharrow wrote: »

there's not the same amount of people willing to put their shoulder to the wheel here in my experience

Better to try and fail then never try at all, as far as I'm concerned.

TheBardWest · 02-11-2011 10:19am

Bray Pub Moot, Féile Draíochta, Dublin Pub Moot, Fellowship of Isis, Pagan Federation Ireland, Druidschool events (at Tara), and Eigse Spiriod Ceilteach are all good resources for pagans to connect with other pagans. I've attended events with each of these groups except the Pub Moots (not family friendly), and thankfully most are tolerant of a broad spectrum of practices and paths and seem to have been able to rise above whatever interpersonal spats Sharrow is referencing.

Dream · 02-11-2011 12:40pm

And once again, I am shocked by the general dipondancy and superiority of the "Pagan community". You can say that excessive questioning is for the sake of clarity if you want, but let's face it, it's about ****ing labels, and that's exactly NOT what Paganism, in all of its umbrella-ness, is supposed to stand for.
Is nobody interested in just getting together (WITHOUT the need to say "I'm a spiritualist/ Wiccan/ shaman/ Druid etc", because that is absoulutely not the point of pride at all) and just showing that we're all very happy with what we believe in, without fear of attack? That's what I hope to be involved in some day, but with these attitudes I don't think we'll ever get there.

CuAnnan · 02-11-2011 2:03pm

Dream wrote: »

You can say that excessive questioning is for the sake of clarity if you want, but let's face it, it's about ****ing labels, and that's exactly NOT what Paganism, in all of its umbrella-ness, is supposed to stand for.

Firstly, Paganism doesn't stand for anything. It's a useless word that describes only what you are not and not what you are. Unless you're using it in its original Roman context, in which case get off your computer and go back to your field. (This is meant to be funny, if you don't find it funny, ignore it).
Paganism only means "not one of the big five". We have nothing in common with each other. I have nothing in common with Wiccans, Asatruar or any of the other pagan paths that are not mine. Why would I? Just because we're not Christian together doesn't mean we are anything else.
Secondly, if Paganism is what you think it is, then it encompasses those who do want to label everything, so it is what Paganism stands for.

Dream wrote: »

Is nobody interested in just getting together (WITHOUT the need to say "I'm a spiritualist/ Wiccan/ shaman/ Druid etc", because that is absoulutely not the point of pride at all) and just showing that we're all very happy with what we believe in, without fear of attack?

I do it in my day to day life. With Christians, Muslims, Jews and anyone else who is like minded. I don't see the need to exclude anyone, and certainly not the majority of the planet.

Dream wrote: »

That's what I hope to be involved in some day, but with these attitudes I don't think we'll ever get there.

What attitudes, if I may ask?

Urizen · 02-11-2011 10:58pm

CuAnnan wrote: »

Paganism only means "not one of the big five". We have nothing in common with each other. I have nothing in common with Wiccans, Asatruar or any of the other pagan paths that are not mine. Why would I? Just because we're not Christian together doesn't mean we are anything else.

That's like saying Gay Pride is a bad idea because homosexual men like men, but lesbians like women and therefore they have nothing in common.

I personally would feel I have much in common with other Pagan paths. As a Hellenic polytheist, I engage occasionally in re-constructionist devotions. I know a number of Asatru followers that do too. We enjoy discussing different experiences and thoughts of this practice, and our different methods. Same goes for Druids and other re-constructionist paths. Also, there are a lot of Wiccans, I know, that worship the Goddess in her nature aspect. In my worship, I often honour Artemis and Gaia, who preside over nature. My patron is Apollon, God of Light, and a lot of other Pagans worship the sun, albeit in different ways. My point is, there are connections if you look for them. Our differences are largely superficial in many cases.

CuAnnan wrote: »

I do it in my day to day life. With Christians, Muslims, Jews and anyone else who is like minded. I don't see the need to exclude anyone, and certainly not the majority of the planet.

Who mentioned exclusion? The entire purpose of this kind of event would be INclusion. If you look up other Pagan Pride ideas around the world you'll see what I'm getting at. It's about celebrating our various faiths, that happen to be under the same big umbrella, and showing the world that we're here.

CuAnnan wrote: »

What attitudes, if I may ask?

I'll be perfectly honest, there does seem to be a lot of 'I don't want to be associated with THEM' kinda attitude coming off here... I could be wrong, so no offence meant. But that could be what Dream means.

CuAnnan · 04-11-2011 12:26am

Urizen wrote: »

That's like saying Gay Pride is a bad idea because homosexual men like men, but lesbians like women and therefore they have nothing in common.

No. It's really not. I have nothing in common with you beyond not being Christian, Jewish, Hindi, Buddist or Muslim. Our beliefs do not overlap. We do not hold a similar cosmology or ethical system.

Urizen wrote: »

Our differences are largely superficial in many cases.

That's simply not the case.
There are ethical incompatibilities between many religions, not to mention cosmological ones.

Urizen wrote: »

I'll be perfectly honest, there does seem to be a lot of 'I don't want to be associated with THEM' kinda attitude coming off here... I could be wrong, so no offence meant.

There are pagans that I don't want to be associated with.
There are entire pagan movements that I don't want to be associated with.
That guy who went around "initiating" seventeen and eighteen year old girls, spreading HIV, springs to mind. He's a pagan and I want nothing to do with him.
Then there are more mundane pagans that I just want nothing to do with, like Edain McCoy, Silver Ravenwolf or any of the other culture rapists out there.

Urizen · 04-11-2011 1:33am

CuAnnan wrote: »

No. It's really not. I have nothing in common with you beyond not being Christian, Jewish, Hindi, Buddist or Muslim. Our beliefs do not overlap. We do not hold a similar cosmology or ethical system.

That's a massive oversimplification. I don't believe in killing indiscriminately, or the use of human sacrifice in ritual. It's probably safe to assume that you'd agree. That's an ethical similarity. And we know very little, if anything, of each other's beliefs. To say that they don't overlap in any way is, frankly, wilful ignorance.

CuAnnan wrote: »

That's simply not the case.
There are ethical incompatibilities between many religions, not to mention cosmological ones.

True. I'm sure Kemetecists aren't thrilled by the idea that the Egyptian Gods are, in Hellenic myth, just hideouts for the Greek Gods while Typhon attacked Olympus. But there are not incompatabilities between all of us.

CuAnnan wrote: »

There are pagans that I don't want to be associated with.
There are entire pagan movements that I don't want to be associated with.
That guy who went around "initiating" seventeen and eighteen year old girls, spreading HIV, springs to mind. He's a pagan and I want nothing to do with him.
Then there are more mundane pagans that I just want nothing to do with, like Edain McCoy, Silver Ravenwolf or any of the other culture rapists out there.

I would more view these as people not to associate with, that often just use the term Pagan as a means to an end.

CuAnnan, obviously this is an idea you aren't in support of. But you seem to be approaching it largely (although understandably) from the point of view that it's not to your personal taste. There's no objectivity to your arguments, really.

CuAnnan · 04-11-2011 2:56pm

Urizen wrote: »

I don't believe in killing indiscriminately

How about to save a life?
How about to prevent someone from killing someone else?
How about serial rapists or paedophiles?

Urizen wrote: »

or the use of human sacrifice in ritual.

I have no ethical problem with this.

Urizen wrote: »

It's probably safe to assume that you'd agree.

Why?

Urizen wrote: »

And we know very little, if anything, of each other's beliefs.

You're a hellenic pagan. I know quite a great deal about yours.

Urizen wrote: »

To say that they don't overlap in any way is, frankly, wilful ignorance.

No, it really isn't. I think you're using that phrase without knowing what it means.

Urizen wrote: »

I would more view these as people not to associate with, that often just use the term Pagan as a means to an end.

I'm sure they don't. Why should we take your definition of pagan over theirs? Because it's convenient to our ethical stand points?

Urizen wrote: »

CuAnnan, obviously this is an idea you aren't in support of.

You are mistaken.

Urizen wrote: »

There's no objectivity to your arguments, really.

Well, I'm acting as Devil's Advocate. Your positions have some problems that need to be addressed and, since having them pointed out to you did not cause you to address them, I am pushing the matter.

hairyheretic · 04-11-2011 8:37pm

I trust that while pushing the matter things will be kept civil though?

tommy2bad · 06-11-2011 8:49pm

or the use of human sacrifice in ritual.

I have no ethical problem with this.
Then you're one sick puppie.
Cop on fast, talk like that can give everyone a bad name......
Ahhh I see what you mean. Thats the trouble with a blanket term like pagan, it isn't a definition of anything. Could you have a non atheist but not Xian, Jewish Muslim Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian pride? See how that doesn't work.
I don't object to a Pagan Pride celebration but it isn't something that can encompass the range of faith paths that exist. How about a believers pride, let everyone who isn't committed to atheism join? More of a celebration of spirituality than materialism 'tho nowadays even some atheists are claiming to have spirituality.
(I mean it about the human sacrifice thing don't even go their it's indefensible)

Urizen · 06-11-2011 11:32pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Then you're one sick puppie.
Cop on fast, talk like that can give everyone a bad name...

I'm unsure what part of 'civil' you misunderstood mate. CuAnnan is entitled to believe what they like, as is everyone.

CuAnnan wrote: »

How about to save a life?
How about to prevent someone from killing someone else?
How about serial rapists or paedophiles?

I don't believe in killing indiscriminantly. I am in support of killing in certain circumstances.

Wilful ignorance is the purposeful denial of information to oneself. As I do not follow every single ancient idea of Hellenismos, you do NOT know all of my beliefs, and cannot claim the complete lack of common ground.

As to the rest, if you have better ideas, please share them rather than just telling me how wrong I am. I am fully open to ideas, I never intended my initial statements to be the be-all and end-all of things.

tommy2bad · 07-11-2011 12:04am

I'm unsure what part of 'civil' you misunderstood mate. CuAnnan is entitled to believe what they like, as is everyone.

Try rereading my post. I was progressing CuAnnan's view from opposition to understanding..
As to everyone being entitled to believe what they want, I think you ll find believing in murder is not something anyone is entitled too, but thats a different thread.
I was addressing the point CuAnnan made about pagan being too wide a net to expect all faiths to assume as a banner.
How to get around that seems to be the point he was making and he admitted himself that he was pushing it a bit so I pushed a bit back.
Oh sorry for not crediting your quote, I cant seem to get it to do that, what am I doing wrong?

Morag · 07-11-2011 12:19am

There are atheistic pagans.

Oh and there are many types of human sacrifice, a person devoting themselves to a path/priesthood/service to place or god/s can be considered to sacrifice themselves their lives/energy/time/themselves as an act of human sacrifice. Same way giving blood can be considered a human sacrifice or blood sacrifice.

tommy2bad · 07-11-2011 12:42am

Sharrow wrote: »

There are atheistic pagans.

Oh and there are many types of human sacrifice, a person devoting themselves to a path/priesthood/service to place or god/s can be considered to sacrifice themselves their lives/energy/time/themselves as an act of human sacrifice. Same way giving blood can be considered a human sacrifice or blood sacrifice.

Two things here; help me out, I'm new at this 'tho I did dabble in wicca one time.
Atheistic pagans? Why?
No. Human sacrifice is by definition a killing, anything else isn't a sacrifice of a human it a dedication or sublimation. Don't dishonor those that have died by being sacrificed.It's not just you that make this conflagration and I find it wrong their too. This of course is my understanding and btw most peoples understanding of the term so if language isn't to get in the way of understanding some common usage of terms is presumed. Again this illustrates the point about differences being so great that agreement is difficult.

Morag · 07-11-2011 1:11am

A person can't dabble in Wicca, they either get initiated into a traditional coven or they don't, but a person can certainly dabble in wiccan influenced neo paganism.

Atheistic paganism, why? why not?

Some either have no interest in any deity of any ilk, don't acknowledge them at all and live in harmony of the changing seasons and the turning of the wheel of the year and connect to 'nature'. Other's see all deity as being aspects of themselves and that it's all the one devine which they are a part of.

There are also agnostic pagans, as well as soft polytheists and hard polytheists and those who are monotheists, but do not exclude the existence of other gods/deity but have nothing to do with them and stick to just the one god/deity.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacrifice

Definition of SACRIFICE
1
: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar

2
: something offered in sacrifice

3
a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b : something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>
4
: loss <goods sold at a sacrifice>

The definition includes the taking of a life but it also includes the giving of one, or at least the act of offering a human life, which does not automatically mean the ending of it. The surrender of ones self to a deity, to do their will, or to allow their will to be worked through ones self is a sacrifice.

For some it is absolute, for others, they bargain step by step along the way.

Urizen · 07-11-2011 1:37am

tommy2bad wrote: »

As to everyone being entitled to believe what they want, I think you ll find believing in murder is not something anyone is entitled too, but thats a different thread.

The tone just seemed a bit extreme man. Anyway, they are entitled to the belief, but maybe not the practice. But you're right, this is neither the time nor the place :P

tommy2bad · 07-11-2011 11:41am

Thanks Sharrow, interisting stuff.
Hadnt realy concidered atehism a posibility as a faith path, it sort of counter intutative if you see what I mean.
Yes I was being extreme Urizen, I thought someone would point out the obvious human sacrifice performed daily. I'm not going down that path now just trying to show the problem with umbrella terms.

Morag · 07-11-2011 11:49am

So Urizen you'd want such an event to be open to anyone who id's in any way as being pagan?

What type of an event and where?

Urizen · 07-11-2011 8:42pm

Sharrow wrote: »

So Urizen you'd want such an event to be open to anyone who id's in any way as being pagan?

That was the general idea, yes. Inclusivity and all that. Or, perhaps more accurately, inclusivity for those who actually want to be included.

Sharrow wrote: »

What type of an event and where?

I have a very vague idea of that. Even something as basic as getting 50 people within 200 feet of each other would be a start. I would not imagine something like this attracting all that many people in its first incarnation. What I was thinking was maybe at the Spring Equinox or Summer Solstice, since most of us seem to practice these in some form or another (though I'm sure I'll be met with the exceptions immediately). Not, however, for any kind of group ritual (unless attendees wished) but more as a meeting time that the general Pagan community would jointly associate with. I was originally hoping to base it on the Dallas version, with individual stalls showcasing different beliefs and explanatory talks, but that seems to have had considerably more support financially then I could supply, certainly.

As to venue, I'd advocate somewhere that people could get to easily, but that also doesn't want booking fees or guarantees on numbers or anything. Which is likely to be difficult but doable, I believe the Iveagh Gardens in Dublin would serve. I've heard they don't mind things like that.

And by all means, suggest alternatives. I posted this for feedback.

Pagan Pride

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