Irish military exports worth a massive €10.7bn.

Dionysus

I just came across this in this morning's Irish Examiner and thought I might do an ethical check on views regarding the arms industry.

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Irish military exports worth €10.7bn

Irish military exports worth €10.7bn
By Conor Ryan, Investigative Correspondent
Thursday, September 22, 2011


IRISH-BASED companies have been authorised to export over €10.7 billion worth of military related goods in the last three years.
Almost €90 million of this was equipment specifically designated for ammunition and arms’ purposes, and included guns and weapons sensors.

The remaining €10.6bn related to products that were so hi-tech the international community requires strict controls on their sale. These rules were developed in case the materials fell into the wrong hands.

These so-called dual-use products were primarily electronic and telecommunications materials, which can be used for day-to-day purposes but have the potential for development by defence manufacturers.

The export figures are contained in the first national report under the Control of Export Act 2008, which requires the Government to document the country’s involvement in the international arms trade. This covered the licensing regime for first three years of the act.

Enterprise Minister Richard Bruton said the information needed to be transparent.

"The human rights, security and regional stability concerns which underpin export controls are of paramount importance to my department," he said.

"The report marks a new chapter in communicating with civil society and others. What we do affects others, including concerned members of civil society and those who earn a living from international trade."

The figures for 2010, when €1.5bn worth of military components were licensed to be sold, represented a significant fall on 2009, when licences were given for €6.7bn worth of deals.

The department said a relatively small number of operators are licensed to export military-only equipment from Ireland. In total, they were given 98 approvals to carry out business internationally.

Britain, Germany, the US, the Netherlands and Kuwait were the most valuable destination countries for Irish military products last year.

In the broader "dual-use" category, the number of licenses issued in 2010 jumped from 345 to 715, despite a significant fall in the value of these deals.

The department said the change was largely due to one unnamed company which dealt in multiple international shipments.

Several licences relate to goods that never arrive in Ireland but are owned and controlled by firms based here.

In the period 2008-2010 Irish-based companies were licensed to trade with countries including Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Lebanon.

In 2009, Egypt was listed as the marketplace for 13 contracts worth over €100,000 each.

The vast bulk of deals involved Britain, the US, Germany and China.

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The extent in Ireland of the much criticised incredibly secretive arms industry is a cause for concern. Where in the state are these being made? I only know of one company, Timoney Technology in Meath. What other companies are engaged in supplying military equipment? What is being made, by whom is it being used and for what?

To my mind, there's something very suspicious about a multi-billion euro industry, which is involved in the war industry, being so secretive in a very small country like Ireland.


If actions by Irish companies are responsible for inhumanity and keeping corrupt regimes in power abroad, does the Irish public have a right to know this, or should we turn a blind eye and welcome the economic boost from this money?

antodeco

If we didn't make them, someone else would. Id rather, us as a nation, benefit from something that's inevitable to happen, than another nation.

Plus, it also means if a world war does happen, we can equip everyone in Ireland with this gear

Nodin

Who'd have thought the slash hook and hurley would be such an economic boon?

galwayrush

Jobs , so badly needed.

Victor

No, the Irish economy needs all the money it can get.

Realise that a lot of the dual-use equipment is stuff as simple as computer parts made by the big name suppliers - Patriot missiles ran on Pentium chips.

ArphaRima

I'm not that concerned. I dont think we actually manufacture arms per se. ie Guns, explosives, missiles, ships, tanks, etc.

Even if we did, I wouldnt be that opposed to it.
Oversight, yes. Full public disclosure of every deal, no.

Richard Hillman

I don't care if we are arming a genocide. If we are getting paid then bravo. Profit before people every single time when it comes to non Irish people.

Victor

No, the Irish economy needs all the money it can get.

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I don't care if we are arming a genocide. If we are getting paid then bravo. Profit before people every single time when it comes to non Irish people.

No. While some level of security spending is necessary (I think Ireland gets it about right), profligate military spending is a drain on the world economy while making the lives of many a misery. If the trillions spend on militaries were spent on infrastucture or research, we would all be better off.

Imagine you spend €1m on buying a (second rate) tank. I spend €100,000 on two missile and blow up your tank. We have spent €1.1m, have nothing to show for it, you're in a wheelchair and two of your friends are dead. If we did it differntly, we could have just shared the money amongst ourselves.

Arming a genocide just means there are fewer people to sell things to. And, because there is the ever present threat of genocide or other such security situation, people will hoard money rather than invest it or spend it, further harming the world economy.

opinion guy

Dionysus wrote: »

I just came across this in this morning's Irish Examiner and thought I might do an ethical check on views regarding the arms industry.

---

Irish military exports worth €10.7bn

Irish military exports worth €10.7bn
By Conor Ryan, Investigative Correspondent
Thursday, September 22, 2011


IRISH-BASED companies have been authorised to export over €10.7 billion worth of military related goods in the last three years.
Almost €90 million of this was equipment specifically designated for ammunition and arms’ purposes, and included guns and weapons sensors.

The remaining €10.6bn related to products that were so hi-tech the international community requires strict controls on their sale. These rules were developed in case the materials fell into the wrong hands.

These so-called dual-use products were primarily electronic and telecommunications materials, which can be used for day-to-day purposes but have the potential for development by defence manufacturers.

Misleading story is misleading - if not outright false.
10.7bn are not arms exports. 10.6bn are 'dual use' - probably hi tech equipment - computers, telecoms stuff etc. so only 0.1billion are actual 'Irish Military Exports'

Talk about dressing figures up for a story :rolleyes:

Although personally I'd rather we didn't export any of the actual military equipment. 100million is alot and it should be outlawed

conolan

Dionysus wrote: »

Irish military exports worth €10.7bn

Ignore the headline. Read the story. Dual-use. Most probably not going to any military body.

Monty Burnz

opinion guy wrote: »

Although personally I'd rather we didn't export any of the actual military equipment. 100million is alot and it should be outlawed

If Denmark or wherever wants to buy a few APCs or something from an Irish company, I don't really see the problem.

sbsquarepants

Victor wrote: »

No. While some level of security spending is necessary (I think Ireland gets it about right), profligate military spending is a drain on the world economy while making the lives of many a misery. If the trillions spend on militaries were spent on infrastucture or research, we would all be better off.

Imagine you spend €1m on buying a (second rate) tank. I spend €100,000 on two missile and blow up your tank. We have spent €1.1m, have nothing to show for it, you're in a wheelchair and two of your friends are dead. If we did it differntly, we could have just shared the money amongst ourselves.

Arming a genocide just means there are fewer people to sell things to. And, because there is the ever present threat of genocide or other such security situation, people will hoard money rather than invest it or spend it, further harming the world economy.

It usually works more like i buy enough tanks, plains etc to overrun your crappy missile defenses and steal all your shít. It may have cost me millions, but i've stolen billions, or cost me billions but i've stolen trillions.
And as for the poor fúckers in the wheelchairs and the coffins, well they were expendable anyway, just like the tanks and the missiles, in fact way more so than the tanks and the missiles (people are cheap, free in many cases, and missiles don't have baby missiles).
Then the game starts all over again somewhere else

Monty Burnz

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It usually works more like i buy enough tanks, plains etc to overrun your crappy missile defenses and steal all your shít. It may have cost me millions, but i've stolen billions, or cost me billions but i've stolen trillions.
And as for the poor fúckers in the wheelchairs and the coffins, well they were expendable anyway, just like the tanks and the missiles, in fact way more so than the tanks and the missiles (people are cheap, free in many cases, and missiles don't have baby missiles).
Then the game starts all over again somewhere else

Kum-ba-ya my Lord, Kum-ba-ya...

Sonnenblumen

Ah sure isn't it a great little country especially one which supposedly cherishes neutrality. But when it comes to making a few quid,the Irish are more than willing to do almost anything to secure the sale/job.

Reminds me of the oldest profession around.

ARGINITE

Other (state in post).

Well the bankers have to be paid with something!

discus

Other (state in post).

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Ah sure isn't it a great little country especially one which supposedly cherishes neutrality. But when it comes to making a few quid,the Irish are more than willing to do almost anything to secure the sale/job.

Reminds me of the oldest profession around.

Even neutral countries spent money on military hardware. :rolleyes:

TheZohanS

Other (state in post).

They're not military exports, it's freedom...we're exporting freedom.

Would hate to have to plug the €10bn hole if we ever lost these exports...

FetchTheGin

TheZohan wrote: »

They're not military exports, it's freedom...we're exporting freedom.

Mr Bush? :P

two wheels good

Victor wrote: »

Arming a genocide just means there are fewer people to sell things to.

Because human beings are essentially only units of consumption. Human rights, right to life, peace, security count for nothing as long as people are consuming?

professore

I suspect Intel's chips account for 7 or 8 billion of that figure as they would all be "dual-use".

You can't be held accountable for what people do with things you sell. In that case we should ban all shops from selling knives, baseball bats, golf clubs and scissors as people have used them as offensive weapons in the past.

Some of us live in the real world, and apart from cluster bombs, chemical weapons, land mines, or anything banned by the Geneva Convention or the UN then I say fair play to these companies creating jobs.

doolox

If Ireland was clever it would have a native Arms industry like Israel, South Africa, and a lot of other countries, Belgium and Czech republic come to mind, also Sweden and Switzerland, who have large arms industries and profit well by them.

If natively owned and controlled we could keep the jobs here and not be at the mercy of foreign investors who seek out the cheapest labour and have no tie to Ireland.

Because Military affairs are hugely dependent on surprise for their operations, secrecy is going to happen and is necessary for successful trade in arms. No country wants its potential enemies to know exactly what they have in arms etc.

Its all too easy for some people to turn down jobs in arms manfg. but the jobless thousands should have a say as well.

squod

Where in the state are these being made? I only know of one company, Timoney Technology in Meath. What other companies are engaged in supplying military equipment? What is being made, by whom is it being used and for what?

Surely you don'y mean to talk about this on an anonymous internet forum?
There's four I know of directly making stuff for the arms industry. One of the places in Meath is making an 8x8 military truck. Can carry loads of different stuff.

AFAIR we were exporting this kind of stuff at this kind of level for a long time now.

discus

Other (state in post).

It's just technology, that the militaries of the world are utilising for military uses.

We're not talking designing drones, or robotic foot soldiers. High grade cameras, secure IT networking software, radio equipment, pentium chips (as victor has said, the Patriot had "intel inside"), uniforms, gps equipment... All stuff that can be used for any number of reasons.

discus

Other (state in post).

squod wrote: »

One of the places in Meath is making an 8x8 military truck. Can carry loads of different stuff.

Exactly, it's just a green truck with different specifications.

Donny5

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Ah sure isn't it a great little country especially one which supposedly cherishes neutrality. But when it comes to making a few quid,the Irish are more than willing to do almost anything to secure the sale/job.

Reminds me of the oldest profession around.

Now this is a ludicrous argument. Neutral countries by definition should have strong defences to protect their sovereignty, and almost all neutral countries have large defence industries.

Even our own inventory includes APCs from MOWAG and aircraft from Pilatus, both of which are Swiss companies. Our rifles are made by Steyr, an Austrian company. Our short range anti-armour weapons, the 84mm Carl Gustav and the AT4 are made by Saab Bofors of Sweden. Saab Bofors also make our air defence missile systems and anti-air guns.

Neutrality, formidable militaries, and arms production have long gone hand in hand. Ireland, with our extremely weak defences and almost non-existent armaments industry is the exception, not the rule.

PeterIanStaker

Other (state in post).

Article title is somewhat misleading.

Is this Boards or did I log on to Indymedia by mistake?

Its not like we're exporting cluster bombs and VX nerve gas to the Taliban or something.

goose2005

antodeco wrote: »

If we didn't make them, someone else would. Id rather, us as a nation, benefit from something that's inevitable to happen, than another nation.

It's odd that arms dealers can use this logic, but drug dealers can't. If I didn't sell heroin to teenagers, shur Johnny Mac down the road would, so really I'm not doing anything wrong.

Phill Ewinn

Other (state in post).

discus wrote: »

It's just technology, that the militaries of the world are utilising for military uses.

We're not talking designing drones, or robotic foot soldiers.

I'd be suprised if we weren't. Know a couple of lads designing military equipment. A lot of stuff is dual use I know. Still we do design and build plenty of stuff over here. Don't think it's a patch on the french or whtever.

10bn isn't much when you think of the costs involved in developing stuff for military projects.

Morlar

I think we have a right to know AND we need every penny we can get.

The only question is if any of it is going to regimes/govts known for human rights abuses or aggression.

I think no matter where those exports are going there will always be some people who will object and protest.

ejmaztec

Another neutral country, and probably doesn't include all those knives and dual-purpose items.

The neutral Swedes must be selling a hell of a lot more than us or the Swiss, because they're selling aircraft as well as everything else.

Feb 2010
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Arms_exports_reach_new_record.html?cid=8271112

Arms exports reach new record

Swiss arms exports bucked the country’s general export decline in 2009, rising by 0.8 per cent compared with the previous year.

Arms were exported to 74 countries and sales increased to SFr727.7 million ($683 million), according to figures released by the State Secretariat for Economic Affairs (Seco) on Wednesday.


In contrast, overall commodity exports dropped by 13.5 per cent compared with 2008.

Switzerland’s five top arms customers were Germany, Saudi Arabia, Denmark, Britain and Belgium. Most arms went to Europe (69 per cent) and Asia (25 per cent).

The biggest orders included the partial delivery of eight air defence systems and munitions to Saudi Arabia and armoured vehicles to Germany, Belgium, Brazil, Denmark and Spain. Various munitions and hand grenades were supplied to Britain.

Last November, voters overwhelmingly rejected a proposal by a coalition of peace groups and centre-left parties to ban weapons exports and other war materiel.

The government had warned approval would cost thousands of jobs and jeopardize the country's defence capacity.

swissinfo.ch and agencies

Zebra3

No, the Irish economy needs all the money it can get.

Dionysus wrote: »

In the period 2008-2010 Irish-based companies were licensed to trade with countries including Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Lebanon.

In 2009, Egypt was listed as the marketplace for 13 contracts worth over €100,000 each.

The vast bulk of deals involved Britain, the US, Germany and China.

Why have you highlighted certain countries and not the warmongering British and Americans?

Slozer

Dionysus wrote: »

These rules were developed in case the materials fell into the wrong hands.

I laughed!:pac:

keitho Dublin

No, the Irish economy needs all the money it can get.

so much so for people of Ireland do not like war

Manic Moran

Made in Sweden
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DsKIS3dPl28/TZNeeZflKbI/AAAAAAAABsk/ZZb0X81f7QY/s1600/JAS39Gripen.jpg

Made in Switzerland
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/LAND_Leopard-2_Pz_87_Steel_Parade_2006_Sandstein_FPD_lg.jpg

Made in Ireland.
http://s3.jrnl.ie/media/2011/08/bomb_scare-0143-390x285.jpg

Yeah, two neutralities are better protected than the third.

Crazy Horse 6

No, the Irish economy needs all the money it can get.

antodeco wrote: »

If we didn't make them, someone else would. Id rather, us as a nation, benefit from something that's inevitable to happen, than another nation.

Plus, it also means if a world war does happen, we can equip everyone in Ireland with this gear

Sounds like what my local drug dealer would say. Does'nt make it right.

Monty Burnz

keitho Dublin wrote: »

so much so for people of Ireland do not like war

I'm baffled at the levels of reading ability you see very often on Boards. Baffled.

FlutterinBantam

Other (state in post).

Indeed, and I'm baffled at the amount of posters who post this Shite as if it was of any importance.

Can't for the life of me figure out the bent and twisted punters who keep digging up this crap and presenting it here.

Who gives a fcuk??i

Chuck Stone

No, the Irish economy needs all the money it can get.

The war dividend.

If you work in the 'security' industry then insecurity is good for business. If you're anyone else you're paying to pick up the pieces.

longhalloween

Other (state in post).

So? Belgium, Sweden and Switzerland have arms industries and they're not military powerhouses, why can't Ireland do it?

If there's a market for it, we should have an industry to meet that demand.

Orando Broom

Other (state in post).

Sweden make some of the nastiest **** you've ever seen! My particular favorite was the anti personnel mine that looked like a child's toy. This thing was small and plastic and came in bright colours. Sweden the greatest country ever known! Let's not beat ourselves up about military export. Most of our stuff is either re routed through here or multi-use.

Monty Burnz

Orando Broom wrote: »

Sweden make some of the nastiest **** you've ever seen! My particular favorite was the anti personnel mine that looked like a child's toy. This thing was small and plastic and came in bright colours..

Any chance of a link about this please? Sounds pretty bad if true - unless the bright colours are meant to help you avoid going near it?

Orando Broom

Other (state in post).

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Any chance of a link about this please? Sounds pretty bad if true - unless the bright colours are meant to help you avoid going near it?

No. Saw them on a training course. They were about five inches long and would remind you of those Maple leaf seed dispersal yokes. I'll do a search and see.

Orando Broom

Other (state in post).

Here you go. The mine is called a butterfly and it's designed to maim children.

http://cyberschoolbus.un.org/sds/risk_reduction/mineriskeducation.asp

FlutterinBantam

Other (state in post).

Orando Broom wrote: »

Here you go. The mine is called a butterfly and it's designed to maim children.

http://cyberschoolbus.un.org/sds/risk_reduction/mineriskeducation.asp

No it's not.

Orando Broom

Other (state in post).

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

No it's not.

No it's not what?

FlutterinBantam

Other (state in post).

Orando Broom wrote: »

No it's not what?

It's not specifically designed to maim children.

maddragon

Other (state in post).

The mine shown in that link is the PFM-1 butterfly mine manufactured by RUSSIA not Sweden.

I have worked as a Mine Awareness and Training Officer for the UN.

Bullchomper

The €10.6bn dual use products manufactured here in Ireland are in fact the most sought after materials by any country engaged in, or prepared for, warfare. They are not overly high-tec but are mass produced and criminally used for the most intense, depraved forms of torture that would make waterboarding appear like a calming facial. Foreign military governments invest millions in the debase export. It is a common and highly illegal form of psychological warfare exercised across the world where political detainees are subjected to this for hours until they endure full mental breakdown.

Orando Broom

Other (state in post).

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

It's not specifically designed to maim children.

Okay not specifically but it's an added bonus for the designers and users that it does.

Orando Broom

Other (state in post).

maddragon wrote: »

The mine shown in that link is the PFM-1 butterfly mine manufactured by RUSSIA not Sweden.

I have worked as a Mine Awareness and Training Officer for the UN.

Jesus does anyone read anything on here? I told him I couldn't find a link. That was just sent to show that they existed. The CARE website had more about Butterfly mines but no pics. The one I was shown was Swedish made and light plastic, bright green in colour.

FlutterinBantam

Other (state in post).

:

Orando Broom wrote: »

Okay not specifically but it's an added bonus for the designers and users that it does.

:eek:

Where does it say that?

And how do you know that.

Have the designers and users put forward that spec? and if so where?