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Islam Forum: Changes to the forum charter should be discussed here.
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Brown Bomber wrote: »
If so, why didn't you report the post above in the Islam thread that you posted in?
Why are you having a go at him when you admitted earlier you didn't report it yourself?
You said you had a problem with it going unpunished.
Then you said it's anti islam propaganda which leads to hate crimes, which you seem to feel strongly about, but you still didn't report it.
Then you said the problem is not you finding it offensive, but that muslims might find it offensive. We have muslim posters on the boards, and I don't think they reported it either.
Now you're going on at mark because presumably he wouldn't report it or anything similar either. And apparently such posts "de-legitimise Islam".
First of all if the religion of islam is "de-legitimised" by such a report which was apparently backed up with facts and statistics, the problem may possibly just lie with islam, if it crumbles so easily in the face of an internet forum post.
Secondly if the religion of islam is "de-legitimised" by such a post to the extent that you're on here arguing at length about how awful it is, I really don't understand why you didn't just report it in the first place.
I'm at a loss here, I really am
Oh and you said you debunked it. if it's such an awful post maybe it's better to have it debunked factually in public so it doesn't come up again, how about that?
And all this is still completely aside from the fact that A&A forum and islam forum are nearly by definition polar opposites; what happens and gets posted on the A&A forum has no bearing on what might be 1/ posted and 2/acceptable on the islam forum. It's irrelevant. Plenty of things get posted about christianity on A&A that all the posters know would just not be acceptable on the christianity forum, and unless someone wants to show me I am wrong, they don't post them on the christianity forum.
They're equally as interested in the christian forum and have had lengthy debates over long periods of time there without the place imploding on itself. It's a reasonable question to ask that if they can all manage to have civil discussions about a religion on that religion's forum, why the same can't happen in another religion's forum.
Can nobody else see the connection between anti-religionists from the atheism & agnosticism forum being so interested in the Islam forum?0 -
Yes I didn't report it but I publically challenged it.Why are you having a go at him when you admitted earlier you didn't report it yourself?
My problem is no with it not being unpunished. What it does do is establish is what is acceptable and what is mainsteam treatment of minorities on boards.ie. I'm all for healthy debate on any issue on any issue including Islam. There is next to nothing that is taboo for me. What I can't understand is why people feel so strongly about the neccessity to discuse Islam. It's currently a niche forum for a religious minority and is quite open about this.You said you had a problem with it going unpunished.
Well it's not just me saying it I was referring to a report http://centres.exeter.ac.uk/emrc/publications/IAMHC_revised_11Feb11.pdf by Jonathan Githens-Mazer and Bob Lambert which directly links the media and hate crimes.Then you said it's anti islam propaganda which leads to hate crimes,A rise in the number of hate crimes against Muslims in London is being encouraged by mainstream politicians and sections of the media, a study written by a former Scotland Yard counter-terrorism officer, published yesterday, says.
Attacks ranging from death threats and murder to persistent low-level assaults, such as spitting and name-calling, are in part whipped up by extremists and sections of mainstream society, the study says.
The document – from the University of Exeter's European Muslim research centre – was written by Dr Jonathan Githens-Mazer and former special branch detective Dr Robert Lambert.
"The report provides prima facie and empirical evidence to demonstrate that assailants of Muslims are invariably motivated by a negative view of Muslims they have acquired from either mainstream or extremist nationalist reports or commentaries in the media," it says.
Lambert headed Scotland Yard's Muslim contact unit, which helped improve relations between the police and Britain's Islamic communities.
Well two reasons: 1-It's better to challenge and expose it (I know that is the argument you make for an "anthing goes" Islam forum but it's better if it never get's to this point in the first place) 2-Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.Secondly if the religion of islam is "de-legitimised" by such a post to the extent that you're on here arguing at length about how awful it is, I really don't understand why you didn't just report it in the first place.
I'm at a loss here, I really amOh and you said you debunked it. if it's such an awful post maybe it's better to have it debunked factually in public so it doesn't come up again, how about that?
Facts don't matter when there is motivation by hatred. Minds are already made up. I'll give you some examples. Poster A posts a series out out-of-context quotes quotes taken from the Qu'ran to demonise Islam and give the impression Muslims want to kill you. I in turn take the first passage quoted look into the history and put it into context and it turns out that the verse has a completely different meaning and in fact the verse was actually edited to give a false impression. Posters A's response? "uhm..well what about the others?" No change in position despite the facts.
Poster B posts a blatantly false Daily Mail article that gives the impression that Murder is justified in Islam on Muslims through Shariah for being in a beauty contest. I look into the article and it turns out the girls was NOT MUSLIM, NOT EVEN KILLED BY STONING and it in fact had absolutely nothing to do with Islam/Shariah whatsoever. Poster B's response? None, as far as I remember. No change in position despite the facts.
Poster C argues that Islam is the primary motivation for suicide-bombers. I post quotes from Dr. Robert Pape (of the University of Chicago, I think) a man who had lived and breathed 24/7 for the last 10 years, he is the authority on the motivations of suicide bombers who says that Islam is not the motivation for suicide bombers but occupation, desperation, injustice etc is. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/10/18/it_s_the_occupation_stupid Posters C's response? "uhm...welll..Islam is bad...uhm..No change in position despite the facts.And all this is still completely aside from the fact that A&A forum and islam forum are nearly by definition polar opposites; what happens and gets posted on the A&A forum has no bearing on what might be 1/ posted and 2/acceptable on the islam forum. It's irrelevant. Plenty of things get posted about christianity on A&A that all the posters know would just not be acceptable on the christianity forum, and unless someone wants to show me I am wrong, they don't post them on the christianity forum.
They're equally as interested in the christian forum and have had lengthy debates over long periods of time there without the place imploding on itself. It's a reasonable question to ask that if they can all manage to have civil discussions about a religion on that religion's forum, why the same can't happen in another religion's forum.
Because I'd assume many of the people from A&A are ex Christians or at least familiar with enough with Christian ideals, culture, and so on. People generally are not familiar with Islam enough to have any kind of reasonable debate. Also there is enough Christian posters to counter-balance the "antis" the Islam forum would just be swamped.
There is a huge gap between what people know about Islam and what they think they know and what they think they know tends to be primarily negative.
There are exceptions of course contrast Wibbs who has read the Qu'ran with Poster A above.0 -
Publically challenged or otherwise, you have no place going on at anybody else for not reporting a similar style post when you didn't do the same yourself.Brown Bomber wrote: »Yes I didn't report it but I publically challenged it.
Well, you said:My problem with it not being unpunished.
so it looked like you had a problem with it going unpunished.This is a list of comments (I'd gathered for a dispute resolution thread) that went unpunished in the atheist & agnostic forum.
What it established was that threads backed up with facts and statistics are ok on Atheism & Agnosticism forum, particularly if they go unreported.What it does is establish is what is acceptable and what is mainsteam treatment of minorities on boards.ie.
What it did not establish was mainstream treatment of anybody across boards.ie as a whole.
I don't understand why people discuss half the subjects on subfora across boards, but then if I'm not interested in it, it's not really any of my business. I don't go there and tell them what I think they should or shouldn't post.I'm all for healthy debate on any issue on any issue including Islam. There is next to nothing that is taboo for me. What I can't understand is why people feel so strongly about the neccessity to discuse Islam. It's currently a niche forum for a religious minority and is quite open about this.
In any case poster makes statement, backs it up, you refute it, that sounded like debate to me.
I'm not making an argument for anything goes in islam. I'm sure we've all said that outright attacks and insults are clearly not acceptable. The fuzzy line seems to be who decides what's an attack, which is what's at issue here.Well two reasons: 1-It's better to challenge and expose it (I know that is the argument you make for an "anthing goes" Islam forum2-Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Any links?Facts don't matter when there is motivation by hatred. Minds are already made up. I'll give you some examples. Poster A posts a series out out-of-context quotes quotes taken from the Qu'ran to demonise Islam and give the impression Muslims want to kill you. I in turn take the first passage quoted look into the history and put it into context and it turns out that the verse has a completely different meaning and in fact the verse was actually edited to give a false impression. Posters A's response? "uhm..well what about the others?" No change in position despite the facts.
Poster B posts a blatantly false Daily Mail article that gives the impression that Murder is justified in Islam on Muslims through Shariah for being in a beauty contest. I look into the article and it turns out the girls was NOT MUSLIM, NOT EVEN KILLED BY STONING and it in fact had absolutely nothing to do with Islam/Shariah whatsoever. Poster B's response? None, as far as I remember. No change in position despite the facts.
Poster C argues that Islam is the primary motivation for suicide-bombers. I post quotes from Dr. Robert Pape (of the University of Chicago, I think) a man who had lived and breathed 24/7 for the last 10 years, he is the authority on the motivations of suicide bombers who says that Islam is not the motivation for suicide bombers but occupation, desperation, injustice etc is. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/10/18/it_s_the_occupation_stupid Posters C's response? "uhm...welll..Islam is bad...uhm..No change in position despite the facts.
And because we're having a problem ascertaining what is reasonable debate and what is insult, nobody is going to get familiar with islam, it seems.Because I'd assume many of the people from A&A are ex Christians or at least familiar with enough with Christian ideals, culture, and so on. People generally are not familiar with Islam enough to have any kind of reasonable debate.
However hobbes seems to have an issue with even different denominations of islam discussing their differences, so...Also there is enough Christian posters to counter-balance the "antis" the Islam forum would just be swamped.
Sounds like a good opportunity to educate them if they post in the forum then. And if they're insulting, report them or put them on ignore.There is a huge gap between what people know about Islam and what they think they know and what they think they know tends to be primarily negative.0 -
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I opposed it, the mode of opposition is irrelevant. Mark didn't nor did anyone else. The point is not to single out Mark but to point out that Islamaphobic comments are socially acceptable and mainstream.Publically challenged or otherwise, you have no place going on at anybody else for not reporting a similar style post when you didn't do the same yourself.
There seems to be some confusion on this matter. There was nothing backed up. This is my post from that thread and remember the claim "A UK Muslim is far more likely to rape than a non-Muslim".What it established was that threads backed up with facts and statistics are ok on Atheism & Agnosticism forum, particularly if they go unreported.
What it did not establish was mainstream treatment of anybody across boards.ie as a whole.This is the police report the news report was based on. https://www.politi.no/vedlegg/lokale...dlegg_1309.pdf
First off it's worth pointing out that the numbers refer to Oslo and not the whole of Norway. It's actually shameful how low the media will go to demonise Muslims as they've done here. They've spun it in such a way so as to demonise Muslim immigrants.
Luckily I can speak enough Swedish/Norwegian to get the jist of the report.
If you go to table 30 you'll see that there was 152 rapes in Oslo in 2010 - Mostly carried out by people of NORWEGIAN descent. (Norge = Norway) and happened at a party (Fest = party). The news channel has shamelessly twisted rape statistics to whip up paranioa and hatred against immigrants. What they've solely focused on in the news report was "Overfall" meaning assualt. These numbered 6 in total. 4 being committed by men (perhaps even women?) from the Middle East and 2 from Africa.
4 rapes that were carried out by people of Middle Eastern descent is evidence of nothing at all to the claim and that's before you get into the unchallenged xenophobic comments like referring to the burqa as a cloth bag and so on.
Like I've said before it's people who don't like Muslims who will poison the well. If there was a filter that could seperate people like yourself and Wibbs and some others from lynch mob I'd be all for opening up the Islam forum but the well would be poisoned.I'm not making an argument for anything goes in islam. I'm sure we've all said that outright attacks and insults are clearly not acceptable. The fuzzy line seems to be who decides what's an attack, which is what's at issue here.
History has shown time and time again that minorities will be singled out in times of economic hardship. I don't see the need for it here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/28/hate-crimes-muslims-media-politiciansAny links?
I tend to agree that everything is in place for people to inform themselves about Islam and Islamic culture but people have to willing to learn. Broadly speaking this is not the case imo. Take for example the case of the Muslim who posted in that thread, Deravarra - nobody was asking questions everyone was just attack. Attack. Attack. At one point she/he was even called "an apologist for radical Islam". edit - or something along those lines.And because we're having a problem ascertaining what is reasonable debate and what is insult, nobody is going to get familiar with islam, it seems.
However hobbes seems to have an issue with even different denominations of islam discussing their differences, so...
Sounds like a good opportunity to educate them if they post in the forum then. And if they're insulting, report them or put them on ignore.0 -
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