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Is Alcoholism a disease?

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    #272
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    username123 wrote: »
    No.

    Great answer there. A good strong argument.


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    #273
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Long Term Louth wrote: »
    Not so, total abstinance.

    Obviously the only answer is total abstinance, but in many cases the person is actually unable to stop - many alcoholics die as a direct result of their alcoholism, many are never able to stop.


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    #274
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Great answer there. A good strong argument.


    As stated earlier fonecrusher, you will never understand it, because luckily for you, you dont have it.


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    #275
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Great answer there. A good strong argument.

    You asked a question, I answered it directly. Whats your issue - did you not understand my answer?

    No - we are not all predisposed to addiction. End of.


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    #276
    herosa
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭herosa


    Definitely no.When you look at them they are not you. They are playing with a whole different set of cards.


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    #277
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Long Term Louth wrote: »
    As stated earlier fonecrusher, you will never understand it, because luckily for you, you dont have it.

    What do you mean?


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    #278
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    @fonecrusher1 - Id be interested to know how much exposure you have genuinely had to alcoholism. Besides growing up with it I have been actively involved in therapy groups and spoken at many events concerning the assistance of those affected by alcoholism. Ive heard the histories of dozens of individuals, both those affected and alcoholics themselves. Im not saying that all this direct experience makes my opinion more valid than yours - but I would question how valid an opinion is without any exposure to the subject at hand. Your posts come across as though you really dont know what alcoholism is in any practical sense.


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    #279
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    username123 wrote: »
    Obviously the only answer is total abstinance, but in many cases the person is actually unable to stop - many alcoholics die as a direct result of their alcoholism, many are never able to stop.

    Just personal but, I still firmly believe that those totally willing to stop, can.


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    #280
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    username123 wrote: »
    You asked a question, I answered it directly. Whats your issue - did you not understand my answer?

    Nah its just a crap answer thats all.
    username123 wrote: »
    No - we are not all predisposed to addiction. End of.

    How do you know?


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    #281
    herosa
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭herosa


    fonecrusher.The whole there for but the grace of god line is a bit trite but it really does help. Just thank God you dont understand but go easy on those who understand all too well.


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    #282
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    How do you know?

    Read the literature.


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    #283
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    What do you mean?

    Very difficult to explain, to those who dont suffer.


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    #284
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Long Term Louth wrote: »
    Just personal but, I still firmly believe that those totally willing to stop, can.

    Maybe it depends on what stage they are at, what they have going on in their life etc...

    I know from my own experiences that my fathers reality was too painful for him to bear without his drug of choice. He just couldnt live life unless he could drink. He wanted to stop drinking, but he was just never able to.

    Id agree with other opinions expressed in this thread that there may be some underlying mental disorder like bipolar or depression.


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    #285
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Long Term Louth wrote: »
    Just personal but, I still firmly believe that those totally willing to stop, can.

    I agree, but I also agree someone with OCD can stop washing their hands if they're totally willing.

    But it's easier said than done, it's not a trivial matter and it's ultimately a recognised condition.

    Can I ask you, and fonecrusher1, do you accept alcoholism is a serious condition and not simply a choice?


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    #286
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    username123 wrote: »
    Maybe it depends on what stage they are at, what they have going on in their life etc...

    I know from my own experiences that my fathers reality was too painful for him to bear without his drug of choice. He just couldnt live life unless he could drink. He wanted to stop drinking, but he was just never able to.

    Id agree with other opinions expressed in this thread that there may be some underlying mental disorder like bipolar or depression.

    I understand, perhaps the reality of his pain made him unwilling?


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    #287
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I agree, but I also agree someone with OCD can stop washing their hands if they're totally willing.

    But it's easier said than done, it's not a trivial matter and it's ultimately a recognised condition.

    Can I ask you, and fonecrusher1, do you accept alcoholism is a serious condition and not simply a choice?


    No problem asking me, at no stage did I suggest alcoholisim as a choice, a serious condition, that those who suffer from, have the ultimate responsibility for.


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    #288
    herosa
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭herosa


    Look around you in a bar. Do you see the guy who has 2 or 3 drinks or hell even 7 or 8 and then stops and goes to bed. He doesnt have the alcoholic predisposition. Do you see the guy who has 2 or 3 then would break into a locked cupboard for more? He does.It is an OVERWHELMING craving for MORE MORE MORE. You either get that or you dont. The only way to stop it is to avoid having the first drink which you could write a separate book about. These people are biologically different but they didnt know that when they started. Thats all they are guilty of ie not knowing that they had an alcoholic disposition. Maybe some day they will have a blood test for teens to tell them who can and who cant drink but now its all just a horrible lottery. You won and some people didnt. Thats it.


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    #289
    paddyandy
    Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    Can you stop drinking for the Day after 2 pints? If YES then you don't have a problem.


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    #290
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    username123 wrote: »
    @fonecrusher1 - Id be interested to know how much exposure you have genuinely had to alcoholism. Besides growing up with it I have been actively involved in therapy groups and spoken at many events concerning the assistance of those affected by alcoholism. Ive heard the histories of dozens of individuals, both those affected and alcoholics themselves. Im not saying that all this direct experience makes my opinion more valid than yours - but I would question how valid an opinion is without any exposure to the subject at hand. Your posts come across as though you really dont know what alcoholism is in any practical sense.

    Unfortunately what you are essentially saying is my contribution to this thread is less relevant than those who have first hand experience of alcoholism.

    Consider this, in some ways people involved with alcoholism awareness or someone who has had their life affected by alcoholism are a bit too emotionally involved in the subject & therefore their empathy disrupts their ability to be rational & objective when discussing it.

    You need an outside opinion on these things sometimes.


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    #291
    herosa
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭herosa


    Well to a certain extent it is. My opinion on cancer is a lot less well informed than say that of an oncology nurse. My opinion on autism is a lot less well informed than parents of an autistic child. My opinion of life as a wheelchair user is a lot less well informed than someone who uses it every day. Would you tell those people " Look guys you are too closely involved, you maybe need an outside opinion? "The starting point for any illness under the sun is to find a group of people who deal with it every day and ask them whats it like and prepare yourself to be informed and educated. There is nothing ground breaking about that idea. People are telling you but you have your fingers in your ears saying not listening! Why? Whats so awful about saying "oh is that the way it is?"


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    #292
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Seachmall wrote: »

    Can I ask you, and fonecrusher1, do you accept alcoholism is a serious condition and not simply a choice?

    I accept alcoholism is a serious problem. Theres no argument there. Sure it wrecks lives.

    The ultimate responsibilty of the recovery lies with the person though.

    I do not believe its a disease though & i think associating that word with it is actually a hinderance to those trying to recover from having an alcohol addiction. I also think its an insult to the memories of those who have passed away through serious illness (like cancer), those who have beaten a serious illness (like cancer) & survived & those who have lost someone because of a serious illness (like cancer).


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    #293
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    herosa wrote: »
    Well to a certain extent it is. My opinion on cancer is a lot less well informed than say that of an oncology nurse. My opinion on autism is a lot less well informed than parents of an autistic child. My opinion of life as a wheelchair user is a lot less well informed than someone who uses it every day. Would you tell those people " Look guys you are too closely involved, you maybe need an outside opinion? The starting point for any illness under the sun is to find a group of people who deal with it every day and ask them whats it like and prepare yourself to be informed and educated. There is nothing ground breaking about that idea. People are telling you but you have your fingers in your ears saying not listening! Why? Whats so awful about saying "oh is that the way it is?"


    Well said, but in the case of the highlighted relative to alcoholism, the person with the problem is the best informed, perhaps this is what you meant?


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    #294
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Long Term Louth wrote: »
    I understand, perhaps the reality of his pain made him unwilling?

    Maybe. Id love to have more of an understanding of what went on in his mind. To an outsider he had a lot going for him.

    He also had many brothers/sisters/grandparents who suffered the same fate as him - ie, unable to stop and died from it. Again, for the most part, looking in from the outside you would have thought these people had good lives.

    I find the whole thing so perplexing, but it would make sense to me if it was that there was some underlying mental condition - I could sort of get my head around it in a way I find difficult otherwise.


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    #295
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    I accept alcoholism is a serious problem. Theres no argument there. Sure it wrecks lives.

    The ultimate responsibilty of the recovery lies with the person though.

    I do not believe its a disease though & i think associating that word with it is actually a hinderance to those trying to recover from having an alcohol addiction. I also think its an insult to the memories of those who have passed away through serious illness (like cancer), those who have beaten a serious illness (like cancer) & survived & those who have lost someone because of a serious illness (like cancer).


    Even though the cancer may be as a result of smoking?


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    #296
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Long Term Louth wrote: »
    Even though the cancer may be as a result of smoking?

    Maybe.

    And of course theres the millions who have got cancer & never smoked a day in their lives.


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    #297
    herosa
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭herosa


    If I wanted to now about life as a ms patient I would ask

    1 the patient
    2 A neurology doc
    3 Someone who lived day in day out with a ms person.


    Alcoholism is no different. I would have to have a very good reason for not believing them even though their story was identical to people all over the world who had the same condition. Thats what I meant.

    Fonecrusher thousands more recover from cancer than they do alcoholism. The research from any corner of the globe will tell you that. You cant make cancer a more serious illness just because you want it to be. It is what it is not what you wish it was.


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    #298
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    username123 wrote: »
    Maybe. Id love to have more of an understanding of what went on in his mind. To an outsider he had a lot going for him.

    He also had many brothers/sisters/grandparents who suffered the same fate as him - ie, unable to stop and died from it. Again, for the most part, looking in from the outside you would have thought these people had good lives.

    I find the whole thing so perplexing, but it would make sense to me if it was that there was some underlying mental condition - I could sort of get my head around it in a way I find difficult otherwise.

    Underlying mental condition, I agree with, but one which must be controlled by the alcoholic once they become aware, admitting it to oneself, not others, that is central to recovery and causes a lot of the problems particularly to those close to the alcoholic, luckily you dont seem to have been afflicted.


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    #299
    Long Term Louth
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Long Term Louth


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Maybe.

    And of course theres the millions who have got cancer & never smoked a day in their lives.


    Those who smoke are at a greater risk however, so you reckon if it derived as a result of smoking, then good enough for them?


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    #300
    herosa
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭herosa


    LTL. Not all mental conditions can be controlled. Personality disorders are basically untreatable. Its part of the human condition that we dont want to face up to the fact that nothing can be done for a person but sometimes there isnt. Sometimes with an alcoholic the only thing that you can do is show them that someone cares before they die. Bleak? Yip. The truth? Yip. NOT ALL though thank God. Many do recover but 90% to 94% dont according to the research that is out there. The George Best fate awaits many of them and people can give out to them all they want but it wont change. Take a walk through the liver unit in St Vincents or anywhere else. The truth is there. It is a serious serious illness.


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    #301
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Oh dear we're drifting into comeplete bullsh!t again!

    Comparing terrible illnesses like multiple sclerosis & cancer to alcohol addiction. Are you people serious? This is just not logical discussion.

    Also think the thread discussion is starting to loop around on itself so im off.


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