Is Alcoholism a disease?

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 3:57pm

herosa wrote: »

LTL. Not all mental conditions can be controlled. Personality disorders are basically untreatable. Its part of the human condition that we dont want to face up to the fact that nothing can be done for a person but sometimes there isnt. Sometimes with an alcoholic the only thing that you can do is show them that someone cares before they die. Bleak? Yip. The truth? Yip. NOT ALL though thank God. Many do recover but 90% to 94% dont according to the research that is out there. The George Best fate awaits many of them and people can give out to them all they want but it wont change. Tae a walk through the liver unit in St Vincents or anywhere else. The truth is there. It is a serious serious illness.

I understand were you are coming from and I accept in most instances, however in the case of alcoholism, only the person afflicted can truly help themselves.

Seachmall · 25-09-2011 4:02pm

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Comparing terrible illnesses like multiple sclerosis & cancer to alcohol addiction. Are you people serious? This is just not logical discussion.

I agree. There is a distinction to be made.

Until proven otherwise Alcoholism is a Psychological Disorder (classified as "Substance Abuse Disorder" by the APA) and thus is more comparable to OCD than it is cancer or MS.

The comparisons to cancer or MS is not helping the discussion.

fonecrusher1 · 25-09-2011 4:03pm

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Those who smoke are at a greater risk however, so you reckon if it derived as a result of smoking, then good enough for them?

What a silly accusation. When did i make that claim?

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 4:05pm

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

What a silly accusation. When did i make that claim?

A mere question not an accusation.

username123 · 25-09-2011 4:07pm

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

This is just not logical discussion.

Alcoholism is not a logical disease.

fonecrusher1 · 25-09-2011 4:08pm

Long Term Louth wrote: »

A mere question not an accusation.

So your asking me do people who have smoking related cancer deserve it?

No of course not. Don't be silly.

fonecrusher1 · 25-09-2011 4:09pm

username123 wrote: »

Alcoholism is not a logical disease.

Alcoholism is not a disease - full stop.

herosa · 25-09-2011 4:13pm

alcoholism recovery rates. See here http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#remission_rate I have read some that are a little bit more optimistic but the generally accepted rates are not good.

Cancer survival rates -well its hard for me to post just one link because there are so many different types but it can be very high in some cases.

Fonecrusher you can jump up and down saying not true! not true! and I dont know how to handle that. You have invested so much time in this thread I thought you were genuinely interested. If you just want to be right and to hell with all the medical research all over the world well then ok. For anyone who is still serious about this discussion though the figures dont make for pretty reading.

Chuck Stone · 25-09-2011 4:14pm

Seachmall wrote: »

I appreciate that (hence "I recognise the flaw in that") but at same time the opinions of confirmed authorities on the subject (The American Psychiatric Association in this case) is naturally held to a higher esteem than the opinions of casual forum users.

There is an inherant flaw in that, but it's a reasonable assumption. Likewise, if someone was to tell me the twin towers must've had explosives, and I had no understanding of the subject, it would be reasonably incorrect for me to hold their opinion equal to that of demolition experts even if I had no interest in confirming/denying the claims myself.

It is recognised by the APA, the IPA and the AAPDP (as per their associated diagnostic publications).

An argument from authority? Yes, but a reasonable one in this discussion.

As I've stated I've no interest in debating the credibility of respected authorities in the field, nor the credibility of the field itself. It's outside the scope of the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Show me some proof of your claim of a 'proven condition' or stand down.

.

username123 · 25-09-2011 4:14pm

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Alcoholism is not a disease - full stop.

In your opinion, but how qualified you are to make that assertion remains questionable.

Seachmall · 25-09-2011 4:17pm

username123 wrote: »

In your opinion, but how qualified you are to make that assertion remains questionable.

The burden of proof lies upon those who claim it is a disease in the medical sense (that is the only definition worth discussing).

If a source is presented as proof that it is a disease then those saying it isn't must concede in the presence of evidence.

Until then the assumption it is a medical disease is not a reasonable one.

fonecrusher1 · 25-09-2011 4:17pm

username123 wrote: »

In your opinion, but how qualified you are to make that assertion remains questionable.

How qualified are you to refute anything i say?

Around & around in circles we go....

Chuck Stone · 25-09-2011 4:18pm

username123 wrote: »

In your opinion, but how qualified you are to make that assertion remains questionable.

Again, this is an appeal to authority.

If you make the claim that alcohol is a disease then it's up to you to prove it.

paddyandy · 25-09-2011 4:20pm

There is a tendency to euphemise bad habits with new hijacked terms in the west.Call heavy drinking whatever you like it it's a Terrible problem and the entertainment business has a lot to answer for.It has given it a varnish that the world of Piss and Vomit and unpaid bills and hurt should'nt have.

username123 · 25-09-2011 4:25pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Again, this is an appeal to authority.

If you make the claim that alcohol is a disease then it's up to you to prove it.

No - an appeal to what makes a valid opinion. Ive already clarified my level of direct experience for fonecrusher.

Seachmall · 25-09-2011 4:25pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

.

The American Medical Association wrote:

DEFINITIONS

H-30.995 Alcoholism as a Disability

1. The AMA believes it is important for professionals and laymen alike to recognize that alcoholism is in and of itself
a disabling and handicapping condition.
2. The AMA encourages the availability of appropriate services to persons suffering from multiple disabilities or
multiple handicaps, including alcoholism.
3. The AMA endorses the position that printed and audiovisual materials pertaining to the subject of people suffering
from both alcoholism and other disabilities include the terminology "alcoholic person with multiple disabilities or
alcoholic person with multiple handicaps." Hopefully, this language clarification will reinforce the concept that
alcoholism is in and of itself a disabling and handicapping condition. (CSA Rep. H, I-80; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep.
B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)

H-95.983 Drug Dependencies as Diseases

The AMA
1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a
legitimate part of medical practice, and
2. encourages physicians, other health professionals, medical and other health related organizations, and
government and other policymakers to become more well informed about drug dependencies, and to base their
policies and activities on the recognition that drug dependencies are, in fact, diseases. (Res. 113, A-87)
H-30.997 Dual Disease Classification of Alcoholism
The AMA reaffirms its policy endorsing the dual classification of alcoholism under both the psychiatric and medical
sections of the International Classification of Diseases. (Res. 22, I-79; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. B, I-89; Reaffirmed:
CLRPD Rep. B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)

H-30.958 Ethyl Alcohol and Nicotine as Addictive Drugs

The AMA
1. identifies alcohol and nicotine as drugs of addiction which are gateways to the use of other drugs by young
people;
2. urges all physicians to intervene as early as possible with their patients who use tobacco products and have
problems related to alcohol use, so as to prevent adverse health effects and reduce the probability of long-term
addition;
3. encourages physicians who treat patients with alcohol problems to be alert to the high probability of co-existing
nicotine problems; and
4. reaffirms that individuals who suffer from drug addiction in any of its manifestations are persons with a treatable
disease. (Amended Res. 28,
A-91; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)

It is a recognised condition by professionals the world over.

herosa · 25-09-2011 4:26pm

ok seachmall I can live with that.

The mayo clinic says disease http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340

The national institute of research on alcohol abuse and alcoholism says disease
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/FAQs/General-English/Pages/default.aspx#disease

AA says disease.

Medline plus(American library of medical publications) says disease http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/alcoholism.html

I could do this for an hour. If all us disease people are deluded we are in very good company

Sunnyisland · 25-09-2011 4:27pm

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Around & around in circles we go....

That's it isn't it,

Its a huge discussion that comes up in the medical world quite often,I & many organisations including the WHO believe it is but whatever The main point for me and others is not what it is classified as but how we can deal with it and help others to stop there ultimate early death.

Chuck Stone · 25-09-2011 4:28pm

Seachmall wrote: »

It is a recognised condition by professionals the world over.

Argument from authority.

Again, I ask you to provide proof of your claim or stand down.

username123 · 25-09-2011 4:28pm

herosa wrote: »

If all us disease people are deluded we are in very good company

Very well educated company by the looks of it

username123 · 25-09-2011 4:29pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Argument from authority.

Again, I ask you to provide proof of your claim or stand down.

Seachmall has provided proof.

Sunnyisland · 25-09-2011 4:30pm

herosa wrote: »

ok seachmall I can live with that.

The mayo clinic says disease http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340

The national institute of research on alcohol abuse and alcoholism says disease
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/FAQs/General-English/Pages/default.aspx#disease

AA says disease.

Medlineplus(American library of medical publications) says disease http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/alcoholism.html

I could do this for an hour. If all us disease people are deluded we are in very good company

I have already posted links to organisations including the world health organisation which classify it as a disease, some people dont want to accept that,maybe there in denial.;) I am out of here.

Chuck Stone · 25-09-2011 4:34pm

username123 wrote: »

Seachmall has provided proof.

No he hasn't.

He's saying 'look - these people are authorities on the subject so don't badger me with little things like evidence or proof'.

Make the claim?

Provide the proof.

zenno · 25-09-2011 4:34pm

Alcoholism is an addiction simple as that.

The reason I know this is because I was an alcoholic and had been for a very long time. when I did try to give it up the withdrawal was so bad it felt like I was dying and this pushed me back onto the booze as the shakes/pain was too much to bare. it is not a disease.

Seachmall · 25-09-2011 4:34pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Argument from authority.

Again, I ask you to provide proof of your claim or stand down.

I have provided sufficient evidence to show it is considered a condition by medical professionals the world over.

My argument from authority is not being used in a fallacious manner and your position that it is is fallacious within itself.

No he hasn't.

He's saying 'look - these people are authorities on the subject so don't badger me with little things like evidence or proof'.

Make the claim?

Provide the proof.

Your assumptions that Arguments from Authority are by definition logically incorrect is wrong.

The difference between a logically correct one and fallacious one. Mine is reasonable and logical and satisfies all claims.

herosa · 25-09-2011 4:35pm

I never even thought of the world health organisation. Surely folks thats it? Are all these top medical worldwide organisations just pulling our pigtails for the laugh? I think the problem is that some people dont want to relinqish their perceived moral authority over alcoholics and need them to be bold boys and girls who just dont now how to say no. Shucks. If you cant look down on an alkie who can you look down on and stuff the WHO and all those crazy docs.

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 4:37pm

zenno wrote: »

Alcoholism is an addiction simple as that.

The reason I know this is because I was an alcoholic and had been for a very long time. when I did try to give it up the withdrawal was so bad it felt like I was dying and this pushed me back onto the booze as the shakes/pain was too much to bare. it is not a disease.

Zenno, just wondering was there a part of you that just didnt/dosent want to let go?

fonecrusher1 · 25-09-2011 4:37pm

zenno wrote: »

Alcoholism is an addiction simple as that.

The reason I know this is because I was an alcoholic and had been for a very long time. when I did try to give it up the withdrawal was so bad it felt like I was dying and this pushed me back onto the booze as the shakes/pain was too much to bare. it is not a disease.

Well people what higher authority can you find than someone who has battled with the problem?^

Thank you.

Chuck Stone · 25-09-2011 4:39pm

Seachmall wrote: »

I have provided sufficient evidence to show it is considered a condition by medical professionals the world over.

My argument from authority is not being used in a fallacious manner and your position that it is is fallacious within itself.

Your assumptions that Arguments from Authority are by definition logically incorrect is wrong.

The difference between a logically correct one and fallacious one. Mine is reasonable and logical and satisfies all claims.

No offence but I'm not interested in your opinion on the matter.

I ask you again to provide proof of your claim or stand down.

I've asked you several times now and you continue to obsfuscate.

username123 · 25-09-2011 4:40pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No offence but I'm not interested in your opinion on the matter.

I ask you again to provide proof of your claim or stand down.

I've asked you several times now and you continue to obsfuscate.

Just out of interest - what exactly would you accept as proof?

Is Alcoholism a disease?

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