Is Alcoholism a disease?

herosa · 25-09-2011 4:41pm

ok 1 poster versus all the above people including the WHO? Not hard for me. Congrats on staying sober by the way.Its great to hear of the success stories.

dsmythy · 25-09-2011 4:41pm

I'm willing to accept it as a disease as in it causes physiological effects. However it's a disease which need not exist and is caused by human behaviour. Makes me more concerned about other diseases where people have no choice.

Seachmall · 25-09-2011 4:42pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I've asked you several times now and you continue to obsfuscate.

I'm not providing my opinion, I'm providing the opinion of experts which you continue to incorrectly believe in inherently flawed.

You are the one obfuscating the matter by misunderstanding the argument you are presenting.

A distinction between an Appeal to Authority as a fallacy and logical argument is clear.

If you continue to present it incorrectly I will not be responding.

herosa · 25-09-2011 4:43pm

Yes what would you accept as proof? Its hard to know what to say to someone who wont accept what the world health organisation says.

Chuck Stone · 25-09-2011 4:44pm

Seachmall wrote: »

For example DSM-III recognises alcohol dependence as a valid psychological condition. It's not a cop-out or a choice, it's a proven condition to exist

From your own link

t is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition.

You've made the claim and I'm calling you out on your claim.

Retract the statement or prove it.

herosa · 25-09-2011 4:46pm

I do agree on that dsymthy. It is a disease which need not exist. Just look at the muslims. However we live in the western world and if you have ever taken a drink you were at risk from that moment on so I dont know about the whole hierarchy of the deserving sick and the undeserving sick.It is a disease of the society we live in and the young people of Ireland were born into that society. You could say that deaths from road accidents need not exist and I will save my sympathy for people like the Amish who dont drive cars. We are not Amish.Alcohol is a massive part of our world.

Seachmall · 25-09-2011 4:47pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You've made the claim and I'm calling you out on your claim.

Retract the statement or prove it.

It's acceptance within the expert community by definition validates it as a condition.

Sufficient evidence has been presented, your rejections of it are pedantic and irrational.

If you continue down this line I will not respond, it's getting frustrating.

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 4:47pm

I had an ulcer caused by alcohol, however I consider the ulcer the disease not the alcohol.

Sunnyisland · 25-09-2011 4:49pm

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Well people what higher authority can you find than someone who has battled with the problem?^
Thank you.

Me, not saying i am better than that poster but i am an alcoholic clean nearly 3 years now, drank for nearly 33 years almost died,And i believe its a disease a very progressive one at that.

fonecrusher1 · 25-09-2011 4:52pm

realies wrote: »

Me, not saying i am better than that poster but i am an alcoholic clean nearly 3 years now, drank for nearly 33 years almost died,And i believe its a disease a very progressive one at that.

I suppose it depends on what you define a disease to be?

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 4:52pm

realies wrote: »

Me, not saying i am better than that poster but i am an alcoholic clean nearly 3 years now, drank for nearly 33 years almost died,And i believe its a disease a very progressive one at that.

It is still unclear if the original poster is off the drink?

Chuck Stone · 25-09-2011 4:53pm

Seachmall wrote: »

Sufficient evidence has been presented,

No it hasn't.

Your idea of evidence and proof is to direct me to people who make claims.

I'm not interested in being redirected.

Stand down Sir.

zenno · 25-09-2011 4:55pm

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Zenno, just wondering was there a part of you that just didnt/dosent want to let go?

no my whole mindset and body wanted to let it go but when I did knock the spirits and beer on the head it was the withdrawal that caused the problem.

people do not understand the pain of withdrawal from long term alcohol addiction. one time I stopped the drink in it's tracks and I was sort of ok for a day or two then I started feeling very tired and needed to sleep all the time and on day 3 and 4 the inside of my body was like an earthquake going off non-stop then the real pain came in my stomach from then on I couldn't stop shaking and sweating with severe paranoia and edgeness as well and needed to lie in bed for a full week in an awful state as I could not function at all.

this continued so I begged a friend to buy me a bottle of jack daniels. it was that or hospital. like I said the withdrawl is the killer as you feel so deathly you give in and go back on it.

there are tablets from the doctor you can take but they didn't help, they made the problem worse in my case back then. it's hard to explain the feeling in the withdrawl state but it's something no-one wants to go through thats forsure.

zenno · 25-09-2011 4:59pm

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm not providing my opinion, I'm providing the opinion of experts

are any of these so-called experts alcoholics ? you have to be one to know about this addiction.

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 4:59pm

zenno wrote: »

no my whole mindset and body wanted to let it go but when I did knock the spirits and beer on the head it was the withdrawal that caused the problem.

people do not understand the pain of withdrawal from long term alcohol addiction. one time I stopped the drink in it's tracks and I was sort of ok for a day or two then I started feeling very tired and needed to sleep all the time and on day 3 and 4 the inside of my body was like an earthquake going off non-stop then the real pain came in my stomach from then on I couldn't stop shaking and sweating with severe paranoia and edgeness as well and needed to lie in bed for a full week in an awful state as I could not function at all.

this continued so I begged a friend to buy me a bottle of jack daniels. it was that or hospital. like I said the withdrawl is the killer as you feel so deathly you give in and go back on it.

there are tablets from the doctor you can take but they didn't help, they made the problem worse in my case back then. it's hard to explain the feeling in the withdrawl state but it's something no-one wants to go through thats forsure.

Are you off it now?

rossie1977 · 25-09-2011 5:01pm

Seachmall wrote: »

It's acceptance within the expert community by definition validates it as a condition.

the expert community, the same expert community that up until the mid 1970s in the states classifed being gay as a mental disorder

herosa · 25-09-2011 5:02pm

Hopefully he is. Slightly off topic. Prof David Nutt(uk)has developed an alternative to alcohol called synthetic alcohol but disgracefully it has stalled because of the lack of interest by brewers http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6874884/Alcohol-substitute-that-avoids-drunkenness-and-hangovers-in-development.html Wouldnt it be so much better if society got behind something like that instead,ie help alcoholics instead of attacking them if even for their families sake if you cant bring yourself to want it for them?

Seachmall · 25-09-2011 5:07pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

the expert community, the same expert community that up until the mid 1970s in the states classifed being gay as a mental disorder

The very one.

Are you attempting to discredit the entire community or just the conditions you disagree with?

As stated I'm not interested in discussing the validity of clinical psychology as a science.

Sunnyisland · 25-09-2011 5:07pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

the expert community, the same expert community that up until the mid 1970s in the states classified being gay as a mental disorder

There are numerous links here to medical organisations including the WHO who have classified alcoholism as a disease,one of them is from aug 2011.maybe you should read them.

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 5:11pm

realies wrote: »

There are numerous links here to medical organisations including the WHO who have classified alcoholism as a disease,one of them is from aug 2011.maybe you should read them.

Do you reckon as a sufferer, that disease rather than addiction is a more reliable description, personally I would opt for addiction.

zenno · 25-09-2011 5:11pm

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Are you off it now?

well I haven't touched spirits at all in over 3 years and never will again but I can enjoy a couple of cans of beer and leave it at that so in a way yes.

if I have 8 beers on a saturday night I can enjoy them and I do be grand the next day. it's when you get hard into the spirits that's where the problem starts off.

herosa · 25-09-2011 5:15pm

Zenno if you can touch a couple of beers and leave it at that then you are not an alcoholic. I accept that you ran into problems but that is everything an alcoholic isnt!!! AA would have a blue fit if they heard you using the word alcoholism and sure have a few beers on a Saturday all in the same sentence. An alcoholic cant stop after beer any more than they can after spirits.Alcohol is alcohol.

Sunnyisland · 25-09-2011 5:17pm

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Do you reckon as a sufferer, that disease rather than addiction is a more reliable description, personally I would opt for addiction.

For me personally I couldn't care less, Addiction sounds better

But as the meds learn more & more about alcoholism they are seeing that it is not as simple as we all once thought.Ps when i am out in social occasions and asked do i want a drink i don't say no i am an addict or i have a disease

I just say I don't drink.just saying.

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 5:21pm

herosa wrote: »

Zenno if you can touch a couple of beers and leave it at that then you are not an alcoholic. I accept that you ran into problems but that is everything an alcoholic isnt!!! AA would have a blue fit if they heard you using the word alcoholism and sure have a few beers on a Saturday all in the same sentence.

Luckily for you Zenno, I have to agree. In your original post you referred to yourself, I was an alcoholic and had been for a very long time, you dont get better once your off it, but remain an alcoholic for the rest of your life.

zenno · 25-09-2011 5:22pm

herosa wrote: »

Zenno if you can touch a couple of beers and leave it at that then you are not an alcoholic. I accept that you ran into problems but that is everything an alcoholic isnt!!! AA would have a blue fit if they heard you using the word alcoholism and sure have a few beers on a Saturday all in the same sentence.

what I am saying is, now I can drink a few beers and i'm ok but I was a full blown alcoholic years ago. I would drink sometimes 2 full bottles or more of whiskey a day and night, this is when it was real bad and also I was an alcoholic for over 20 years in this case. hope that clarifies this.

herosa · 25-09-2011 5:29pm

No Zenno it doesnt. Alcoholism and I mean real alcoholism is a condition for life-right to the grave.That is a given and any doc in the country will tell you that. Your story sounds as if you were a terrrible heavy drinker for years for whatever reason and you have reduced your intake greatly which is fantastic.Im not being a pain in the ass Zenno. Alcoholism is incurable. You cant just downgrade to beer and move on. If you could the AA halls would empty overnight.All the alcoholics in the world would set off fireworks!! That is only a fantasy for alcoholics.Congrats on cutting back on the booze and ditching the spirits but if you are drinking socially now you never were an alcoholic. You were a terrible heavy drinker yes but thats NOT alcoholism.

zenno · 25-09-2011 5:34pm

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Luckily for you Zenno, I have to agree. In your original post you referred to yourself, I was an alcoholic and had been for a very long time, you dont get better once your off it, but remain an alcoholic for the rest of your life.

In a way I have to agree. but in my personal opinion in my case I class it as an addiction as if you do not get your fix you will feel it in pain and no-one wants to feel pain so you go back on it to get rid of the pain. I just can't see it as a disease because that is the wrong word.

Long Term Louth · 25-09-2011 5:37pm

zenno wrote: »

In a way I have to agree. but in my personal opinion in my case I class it as an addiction as if you do not get your fix you will feel it in pain and no-one wants to feel pain so you go back on it to get rid of the pain. I just can't see it as a disease because that is the wrong word.

I agree with you, addiction rather than disease, keep off the Jack Daniels

woodoo · 25-09-2011 5:37pm

herosa wrote: »

ok seachmall I can live with that.

The mayo clinic says disease http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340

The national institute of research on alcohol abuse and alcoholism says disease
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/FAQs/General-English/Pages/default.aspx#disease

AA says disease.

Medline plus(American library of medical publications) says disease http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/alcoholism.html

I could do this for an hour. If all us disease people are deluded we are in very good company

fonecrusher1 knows better than the mayo clinic - full stop

zenno · 25-09-2011 5:38pm

herosa wrote: »

Alcoholism is incurable. You cant just downgrade to beer and move on.

well I have been able to manage it after over 20 years as a heavy spirit drinker so it is possible. maybe it's just me but I managed to do it so I can't agree with you're comment.

Is Alcoholism a disease?

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