Is Alcoholism a disease?

woodoo

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Well people what higher authority can you find than someone who has battled with the problem?^

Thank you.

Someone with an understanding of the human body

woodoo

Sunnyisland

zenno wrote: »

well I have been able to manage it after over 20 years as a heavy spirit drinker so it is possible. maybe it's just me but I managed to do it so I can't agree with you're comment.

Zenno you have moderated your drinking,some people can do it, most cant including me tried for years to moderate never could do it. Imo your only feeding your pain eventually again it will catch up on you.(hope not)

zenno

woodoo wrote: »

fonecrusher wants us to believe that you were greedy. Drinking to get rid of those horrible withdrawal symtoms was greed and nothing else.

LOL well all I can say about that is.. I was not even enjoying drinking the stuff at the late stage I just drank it to feel pain free and to function otherwise it would be lying on the floor or in bed in absolute agony.

this is what a lot of people don't realize, when you are actually going through the withdrawals it is pain like you have never felt before and it's hell. any real alcoholic out there will agree with me on this case.

herosa

Well if you are serious Zenno you are a medical miracle and Im not being a smartass. Just about every doc in the country would want to now how you did it.If that was the case people wouldnt attend AA for life. AA would just say listen lads just stick to the Guinness and you will be grand. All those books and all those millions in research wouldnt be necessary. For alcoholics a simple glass of wine will trigger the overwhelming craving that is medically called alcoholism and lead to relapse. AA and the medical profession would not accept your version of alcoholism. However I dont want to overlook the main point here which is that you were in a bad way and you sound grand now. A happy ending is a happy ending. They are in short supply so Im glad for you but I would not go persuading any of the real alcoholics of your methods.You are a very lucky man.

cowzerp

Addiction, not disease

zenno

herosa wrote: »

Well if you are serious Zenno you are a medical miracle and Im not being a smartass. Just about every doc in the country would want to now how you did it.If that was the case people wouldnt attend AA for life. AA would just say listen lads just stick to the Guinness and you will be grand. All those books and all those millions in research wouldnt be necessary. For alcoholics a simple glass of wine will trigger the overwhelming craving that is medically called alcoholism and lead to relapse. AA and the medical profession would not accept your version of alcoholism. However I dont want to overlook the main point here which is that you were in a bad way and you sound grand now. A happy ending is a happy ending. They are in short supply so Im glad for you but I would not go persuading any of the real alcoholics of your methods.You are a very lucky man.

well I had no choice as the family and friends and the doctors told me it's either knock it or a body-bag so I choose to knock the drink on the head but I went back on it again and got locked up in prison so in there I could not get drink so managed to get the withdrawals sorted out and that is how I stuck to just a couple of cans of beer on the weekend thereafter. I don't drink in pubs anymore unless in the day I will have 1 pint with the paper and leave.

after seeing all the distruction those years caused I woke up and had a moment of clarity and have managed to just enjoy the few beers now.

also this is the truth as I have no reason to lie. i'm just adding my comment to this problem addiction/disease.

Sunnyisland

3rd Degree wrote: »

So if Alcoholism is a disease, is heroin addiction a disease. I personally do not think alcoholism is a disease, I think it's an addiction. But I don't think it should be taken any less seriously or flippantly because of that.

There is now an acceptance by the general medical community including the WHO that alcoholism is a disease,it has Been discussed in length in the previous posts if your interested.

herosa

I do not know anything about heroin but here is something interesting on it. The article says that at the start it is a choice but then the drug hijacks the brains reward centre and fundamentally changes the structure of the brain leading to a diseased state. However I dont really know much about heroin so I wont go any further than posting this link.http://www.drug-addiction-support.org/Drug-addiction-Choice.html

herosa

I believe you Zenno. You sound as if you have been through a rough time and Im glad you have found peace. Just be careful.

iguana

herosa wrote: »

Well if you are serious Zenno you are a medical miracle and Im not being a smartass. Just about every doc in the country would want to now how you did it.If that was the case people wouldnt attend AA for life. AA would just say listen lads just stick to the Guinness and you will be grand. All those books and all those millions in research wouldnt be necessary. For alcoholics a simple glass of wine will trigger the overwhelming craving that is medically called alcoholism and lead to relapse. AA and the medical profession would not accept your version of alcoholism. However I dont want to overlook the main point here which is that you were in a bad way and you sound grand now. A happy ending is a happy ending. They are in short supply so Im glad for you but I would not go persuading any of the real alcoholics of your methods.You are a very lucky man.

No herosa, he isn't. Studies have repeatedly shown that the brain of a former addict FULLY REPAIRS itself in time. There is absolutely NO PHYSIOLOGICAL reason for a former addict to be unable to moderate once that repair is complete. Psychological is a different matter as not everyone can feel strong enough to moderate, nor will many be bothered to try.

As for quoting what AA believes? AA was founded in the 1930s by a rather horrible man, with a long history as a confidence trickster and scam artist, who had a hallucinogenic experience which he believed/claimed was a message from god. It made him very, very rich and got him laid a lot, despite the presence and unending support of his badly abused wife. The AA has never had any provable success rate, their own figures show their success rates to be below 5%. This is despite numerous studies showing that the vast majority of full-blown alcoholics recover in time.

The AA have never, ever updated their "treatment programme" in spite of 80 YEARS of studies and advancement in medicine and treatment for alcoholism. Their meetings are a breeding ground for sexual predators and the amount of rape and sexual abuse which happens within their organisation is so common it is known as the 13th Step, but the AAWS and the GSO has cleverly structured itself in a way that it takes no legal responsibility for the systematic abuse perpetuated within the organisation. The AA is completely and totally non-medical, it is little more than a highly profitable religious organisation, with a powerful lobby group.

username123

iguana wrote: »

Studies have repeatedly shown that the brain of a former addict FULLY REPAIRS itself in time. There is absolutely NO PHYSIOLOGICAL reason for a former addict to be unable to moderate once that repair is complete.

Have you a link for any of those studies - Id be very interested to read them.

herosa

ok 2 separate issues. AA isnt all its cracked up to be. I will give you that.
Alcoholics cant be bothered to moderate. What about the alcoholics who are abstinent for years? If it was a case of healing their brains would they not be well healed? All over the world you will hear the same story. One drink and they are straight back to where they started. If what you were saying is true it would just be a case of saying to the alcoholics around the world "Look folks have a break ,have a kitkat heal the auld brain and away you go.Just take it easy the next time. Really? Really? Am I the only person on this forum that knows that moderation management has been floated around for years for alcoholics and has been shown over and over again to fail for the vast majority. It is an incurable illness. Find me one medical article written by a doc that says you can heal or cure alcoholism and I will eat my hat...and I mean proper medical article not some Audrey kishline type rubbish.

herosa

You cant turn a pickle back into a cucumber. Moderation talk has been around for years. It is usually the result of the well documented obsession by alcoholics to return to drinking as they once knew it. Many have died or went to prison following this route.

Seachmall

herosa wrote: »

Find me one medical article written by a doc that says you can heal or cure alcoholism and I will eat my hat

"More obvious is the causal relation of the painful, disabling, and embarrassing nutritional diseases in the alcoholic to the perpetuation of excessive drinking. The correction of such physical and mental ills is a prerequisite to the successful management of the alcoholism itself, and sometimes brings about a complete cure."

- Dr. Robert S. Goodhart; The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition URL="http://www.ajcn.org/content/5/6/612.short"]src[/URL

Dodd

Sorry I have no input and ot.
Very interesting and informative thread.

A question for Zenno when you went to prison did you get med's to help with the withdrawals.?

herosa

By cure do they mean stop drinking or start drinking moderately? Putting down the textbooks for a second seachmall do you honestly believe that alcoholics should try to drink moderately again and I mean real everyday alcoholics that you know in your life. If you could reach them all via tv or something is that what you would tell them?

Long Term Louth

iguana wrote: »

No herosa, he isn't. Studies have repeatedly shown that the brain of a former addict FULLY REPAIRS itself in time. There is absolutely NO PHYSIOLOGICAL reason for a former addict to be unable to moderate once that repair is complete. Psychological is a different matter as not everyone can feel strong enough to moderate, nor will many be bothered to try.

As for quoting what AA believes? AA was founded in the 1930s by a rather horrible man, with a long history as a confidence trickster and scam artist, who had a hallucinogenic experience which he believed/claimed was a message from god. It made him very, very rich and got him laid a lot, despite the presence and unending support of his badly abused wife. The AA has never had any provable success rate, their own figures show their success rates to be below 5%. This is despite numerous studies showing that the vast majority of full-blown alcoholics recover in time.

The AA have never, ever updated their "treatment programme" in spite of 80 YEARS of studies and advancement in medicine and treatment for alcoholism. Their meetings are a breeding ground for sexual predators and the amount of rape and sexual abuse which happens within their organisation is so common it is known as the 13th Step, but the AAWS and the GSO has cleverly structured itself in a way that it takes no legal responsibility for the systematic abuse perpetuated within the organisation. The AA is completely and totally non-medical, it is little more than a highly profitable religious organisation, with a powerful lobby group.[/QUOTE]

Please supply the evidence

herosa

To be fair I have heard that too but I have no evidence. Its all anecdotal. They dont keep those type of records so where would you get that evidence from?

Seachmall

herosa wrote: »

By cure do they mean stop drinking or start drinking moderately? Putting down the textbooks for a second seachmall do you honestly believe that alcoholics should try to drink moderately again and I mean real everyday alcoholics that you know in your life. If you could reach them all via tv or something is that what you would tell them?

The paper that quote is taking from is discussing nutritional deficiency possibly being a cause, or catalyst, for alcoholism. If it's correct someone who maintains a proper nutritional diet should not revert to alcoholism.

I'm not saying I'd advise a recovered alcoholic to try drinking, but there's more than one factor that causes alcoholism and if those factors are taken into consideration there is no reason they shouldn't be able drink moderately.

At least that's what I'm taking from the paper.

Long Term Louth

herosa wrote: »

To be fair I have heard that too but I have no evidence. Its all anecdotal.

I have heard it too, Id imagine that those attending who dont take part in the aforementioned, are aware and still find it the only way to stay sober.

I have also heard that without AA many abstainers would still be drinking, I have also heard that the success associated with AA far exceeds any medical intervention, to date that is.

There again Ive only heard this and would have no evidence to back any of it up, other than that heard personally from AA attenders.

Long Term Louth

Seachmall wrote: »

The paper that quote is taking from is discussing nutritional deficiency possibly being a cause, or catalyst, for alcoholism. If it's correct someone who maintains a proper nutritional diet should not revert to alcoholism.

I'm not saying I'd advise a recovered alcoholic to try drinking, but there's more than one factor that causes alcoholism and if those factors are taken into consideration there is no reason they shouldn't be able drink moderately.

At least that's what I'm taking from the paper.

IMO no such thing,

herosa

If there is a diet that prevents alcoholism why arent parents being told to feed their children on it pronto? I accept that a certain diet may help dampen cravings. There is a good book on it called "how to quit without feeling like sh** however I dont believe that nutritional defiencies cause or are the catalyst for alcoholism. Like long term louth I dont think there is such a thing as a recovered alcoholic.They are in remission because they dont drink but if they start they are off. Maybe new treatments are in the pipleine which will allow an alkie to drink but I dont think we are there yet.

Seachmall

herosa wrote: »

If there is a diet that prevents alcoholism why arent parents being told to feed their children on it pronto?

It's not that there's a diet that prevents alcoholism. The paper suggested a deficiency in certain nutrients may result in alcoholism in some people.

If those people eat accordingly to prevent those deficiencies their susceptibility to alcohol addiction may diminish or disappear entirely.

It does however state that proper physical and psychological maintenance "sometimes brings about a complete cure".

zenno

Dodd wrote: »

Sorry I have no input and ot.
Very interesting and informative thread.

A question for Zenno when you went to prison did you get med's to help with the withdrawals.?

no I got no meds I never even knew to ask them as it was all a shock at the time so I had to just get on with it and sleep it off for a few days and deal with it. something bad happened but I can't go into it here.

all I will say is the hospital sorted it all out after a few days.

herosa

It sounds a bit like a modern version of Bill and his vitamin B.Look I dont want to put people on a downer. Its just that every few years a wave of the latest must have cure hits the alcoholic scene There have been things like moderation management to the must have drug which allows you to pop a pill and become a normal drinker. They all build up a scene of devoted followers and then they all crash and burn. It is generally thought they are the product of a group of alcoholics desperate to escape their disease like stem cells were going to wipe out ms.Never underestimate how desperate people with this disease are and how vulnerable they are to the latest cure all craze. Its common to all life destroying diseases. Experience teaches you to be very very cynical. If there really is a pill which allows you pop it and drink it will sweep the world.Sky news will report it on the hour.Many alkies follow these cures to the point of insanity or death.Dont pick up the first drink is still the safest method but many cant and that is why so many die.(90-94%) is what I have heard. People who think it is a choice dont understand it imo.Anyway good luck to those who make it.

Dodd

zenno wrote: »

no I got no meds I never even knew to ask them as it was all a shock at the time so I had to just get on with it and sleep it off for a few days and deal with it. something bad happened but I can't go into it here.

all I will say is the hospital sorted it all out after a few days.

Thanks Zenno.
I just wanted to know that people are looked after there when this happens.
A lot can go wrong by just not drinking.

Seachmall

If you a problem with the paper send it to the author.

Not my paper, I'm not going to debate it.

zenno

herosa wrote: »

It sounds a bit like a modern version of Bill and his vitamin B.Look I dont want to put people on a downer. Its just that every few years a wave of the latest must have cure hits the alcoholic scene There have been things like moderation management to the must have drug which allows you to pop a pill and become a normal drinker. They all build up a scene of devoted followers and then they all crash and burn. It is generally thought they are the product of a group of alcoholics desperate to escape their disease like stem cells were going to wipe out ms.Never underestimate how desperate people with this disease are and how vulnerable they are to the latest cure all craze. Its common to all life destroying diseases. Experience teaches you to be very very cynical. If there really is a pill which allows you pop it and drink it will sweep the world.Sky news will report it on the hour.Many alkies follow these cures to the point of insanity or death.Dont pick up the first drink is still the safest method but many cant and that is why so many die.(90-94%) is what I have heard. People who think it is a choice dont understand it imo.Anyway good luck to those who make it.

the only way of cutting down drastically or knocking alcohol on the head is you do need a lot of willpower and a strong desire to do so. if you do not feel this way strongly then you will not be able to manage it. but in my particular case I had to and that was the end of it. for some people it can be too late unless something very serious happens and makes you think and then realize that it has to be done. but it can be done. no-one will ever say it is easy, it is very hard but people that have this addiction seriously need to think about it and try and sort it out. as they say it's easier said than done but it is possible.

herosa

ok.Its late and Im off.Interesting thread.I enjoyed it.