Is Alcoholism a disease?

4leto

Just reading down this thread and I am gagging for a nice cold can of Hino, really.

I think this thread has drove me to drink.

Slips a few cans into the freezer.

iguana

username123 wrote: »

Have you a link for any of those studies - Id be very interested to read them.

I can start you off by linking you to abstracts but you have to request the full studies or gain access to them with the correct academic log-ins.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18240649?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16156047

iguana

Long Term Louth wrote: »

alcoholism. Their meetings are a breeding ground for sexual predators and the amount of rape and sexual abuse which happens within their organisation is so common it is known as the 13th Step,
Please supply the evidence

Sadly there is bloody loads of it. If it's something you are genuinely interested in I suggest contacting Monica Richardson who was a 35 year AA member who tried to make the meetings safer after witnessing so much sexual abuse within the organisation and was violently ejected from her last meeting for trying to discuss the problem. I think she has since set up a group called Safe Recovery in order to provide an accountable alternative. She runs the Stop13Step blog and as far as I know is currently making a documentary movie on the subject.
http://stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/safe-recovery-on-blogtalkradio-every-tuesday-night-6pm-pst-with-monica-richardson/

But just googling for rape in AA gets you way too many hits. You have to remember that sexual predators are generally smart enough to prey on the vulnerable rather than the healthy and strong. And unregulated meetings of desperate people are highly vulnerable. In fact the court systems are very lenient to criminals of all sorts, including sexual abusers and violent criminals, who claim to be tackling their alcohol addiction, as the case in Tallaght earlier this year goes to show. In the US offenders are often sentenced to AA attendance, at the behest of GSO lobbying, regardless of the danger this can put regular attendees in.

http://psychologicaltabletalk.wordpress.com/

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/75915/Girl-kept-detailed-diary-of-rapes-by-mothers-boyfriend

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705314537/Provo-man-arrested-in-rape.html

http://www.nadaytona.org/index.html?entry=man-rapes-woman-he-met

, it is little more than a highly profitable religious organisation, with a powerful lobby group.[/

As for this part what kind of links do you need? The AA was modelled on The Oxford Group, a religious cult. This is no secret, nor is it at all hidden nor ever denied by Wilson. The whole premise of the AA programme is to be cured by a spiritual awakening following a handing over of your will to your higher power.

As for the money it makes this isn't secret either. Wilson was a con artist who ruined many people on the lead up to the great depression, including his wife's family. In the 30's it went so far that he lost their home, due to his debts. But he became a very wealthy man once AA took off, by the time he died his assets were worth millions in real terms. The AAWS, the publishing arm of AA, turns over millions each year with publicly quoted annual profits often heading toward 8 figures.

Sunnyisland

Iguana I haven't done AA or 12 steps but I have gone to meetings to be around like minded people and found it very interesting and very informative and i don't think its some sort of cult it has helped loads and continues to do so,In USA they are a bit more militant so i am talking about AA meetings in Ireland,england & portugal of which i have attended also the meetings i attended it cost no money you gave if you had it in which what i could see went on tea etc etc.

Sunnyisland

http://www.optimistica.com/documents/Mindfulness_Science.pdf

Also maybe it is possible to use Yoga and mindful meditation to get the same effects as Baclofen!?? It would seem that calming this part of the brain, by increasing Gaba B is central to the anxiety which some are saying underlies addiction for many.

username123

iguana wrote: »

I can start you off by linking you to abstracts but you have to request the full studies or gain access to them with the correct academic log-ins.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18240649?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16156047

Thanks, interesting reading, I didnt know that the brain had such powerful methods of self healing.

However, the mind is a less simple prospect, and although its encouraging that the physical brain damage heals, I certainly wouldnt be telling any alcoholics that there is no physiological reason not to drink after brain repair because psychologically they werent able to control it first time round, so its ublikely they would next time - youd just be placing them at point zero again (drinking before brain damage), but the person would have the same psychology so I wouldnt expect a different outcome.

The above articles make me wonder about my own father, he had completely lost his personality by the end, was like an animal just savagely trying to get to alcohol - it was honestly like a body just working on instinct, not a 'person' anymore. I always thought the brain damage was so advanced that he was beyond hope by then and even if he hadnt died, there was no way back. Now I wonder.

mariaalice

This thread illustrated one thing about boards people want simple answers to very complex questions, I would say that it is a disease and and a choice and and an addiction.

iguana

username123 wrote: »

However, the mind is a less simple prospect, and although its encouraging that the physical brain damage heals, I certainly wouldnt be telling any alcoholics that there is no physiological reason not to drink after brain repair because psychologically they werent able to control it first time round, so its ublikely they would next time - youd just be placing them at point zero again (drinking before brain damage), but the person would have the same psychology so I wouldnt expect a different outcome.

I would not encourage a former addict to start drinking again, however it is known to be very damaging to tell people that with one drink they are back to square one. For example, once the brain repair is underway a slip up really can be a slip up and it doesn't have to mean they are in serious danger of returning to how they were. But it's well known that more often than not that slip up becomes a dangerous binge, precisely because the person believes it will.

Also former addicts aren't necessarily in the same place psychologically as they were when their alcohol abuse started. Take a person who starts drinking as a teenager to cope with a confidence crisis brought about by severe bullying at school. They start college, are nervous around their classmates, drink too much to gain confidence and start to develop good friends and a happy social life. They reason the drink makes them interesting and makes people like them, not comprehending that they have just left a toxic environment and joined a happier one. All through their 20s this person drinks heavily to fit in, never growing to the point of realisation that their friends just actually like them. The person has relationships, gets married, develops a career they enjoy but still relies heavily on drink. By the end of their 30s however it's become clear that the drinking is a major problem, they try to cut back and can't, they try to quit and experience major withdrawal. They struggle for the next few years, nearly losing the career, friends and marriage along the way, but eventually they find a way to quit and realise how much their partner and friends actually care about them. They go to therapy and work through the underlying issues and become a genuinely happy content person. They are then psychologically recovered too and may well find moderation possible if they so choose at some point.

username123 wrote: »

The above articles make me wonder about my own father, he had completely lost his personality by the end, was like an animal just savagely trying to get to alcohol - it was honestly like a body just working on instinct, not a 'person' anymore. I always thought the brain damage was so advanced that he was beyond hope by then and even if he hadnt died, there was no way back. Now I wonder.

I'm sorry you lost your father to this, I lost a close relative to it quite recently and I feel incredibly guilty about because I think I would have been able to help him if he'd been able to hold on just a few months longer. He was in a terrible place though, and I'm just not sure he wanted to hold on or would have been able to rebuild his life from a psychological perspective as he had decided it was completely hopeless. All I can do now is know that if another person I love develops this problem in the future that I am well equipped to help them. There is so much hope for this condition on the horizon, knowledge about diet, exercise, behaviour and medication that I'm determined to know as much as I can so they can feel strong and hopeful instead of powerless and despairing.

iguana

realies wrote: »

Iguana I haven't done AA or 12 steps but I have gone to meetings to be around like minded people and found it very interesting and very informative and i don't think its some sort of cult it has helped loads and continues to do so,In USA they are a bit more militant so i am talking about AA meetings in Ireland,england & portugal of which i have attended also the meetings i attended it cost no money you gave if you had it in which what i could see went on tea etc etc.

I attended al-anon for about 18 months in the UK and Ireland, and I also went to open AA meetings as an observer, and I'm afraid I think that 12 Step groups can have a very cultish element to them. (The don't make much of their money through their meeting collections, it's mostly made through their publishing wing. I can't believe how many of their magazines and books I bought after they were heavily recommended to me, and they were all full of vague variations of the same nonsense, sort of like the JW Watchtower magazine with a focus on alcohol and how many excuses I had to make about forgetting my wallet once I decided to stop buying them.)

Mostly they are full of very lovely people but so much of the programme is nonsensical and is the total opposite to much that is recommended by up to date medicine and psychology. The whole idea of powerlessness is one of the most dangerous things you can teach to an addict, feeling strong and hopeful is a very powerful tool in addiction recovery and taking that away in order to give your will to a god/higher power is dangerous and I don't doubt that's why AA has such low success rates and enormous relapse rates. Just as dangerous, or maybe more so, is the al-anon advice which is given to families, advising them to emotionally detach from their loved one, as many studies show that familial, especially spousal, support is a key factor for recovered addicts.

I met some great people in al-anon and I 100% agree that peer support for both addicts and their families is a key element of getting through addiction. But if it is coming at the price of feeling pressured into following a potentially damaging programme, within an organisation which does not do all it can to protect it's most vulnerable members, who it is promising to help. If it spouts lies, such and "rarely have we seen a person fail" or announcing that "it's AA, or jail, institutions or death" and if it tells people who are sober that they are still not recovered because their disease is so progressive that even when they aren't drinking "it is out doing push-ups in the parking lot" instead of allowing them to recover fully and then get on with their lives. If it isolates addicts from the "normies" and pushes their spouses and families to al-anon with veiled threats of marriage break-up. If it has a phenomenal rate of divorce in it's long-term members, one which is much higher than that for other recovered addicts which isn't actually any higher than the rest of society. Then it does a lot more harm than good and I strongly urge anyone looking for a peer support group to try LifeRing, SMART or one of the many free groups run by their local health service.

woodoo

iguana wrote: »

But it's well known that more often than not that slip up becomes a dangerous binge, precisely because the person believes it will.

One of the most dangerous things about that type of binge regardless of the reason for it. If an alcoholic is used to drinking 10 pints and a bottle of whiskey in a day when he goes on a binge. His tolerance will have reduced the longer he is off it and that 10 pints and bottle could kill him if he was off it for a decent length of time.

AeoNGriM

Alcoholism isn't a disease, but I think it's necessary to treat it as a disease, as in treat it medically. I think that brainwashing someone into thinking it's a disease increases their chances of kicking the habit, and that can only be a good thing if it works.

username123

iguana wrote: »

I'm sorry you lost your father to this, I lost a close relative to it quite recently and I feel incredibly guilty about because I think I would have been able to help him if he'd been able to hold on just a few months longer. He was in a terrible place though, and I'm just not sure he wanted to hold on or would have been able to rebuild his life from a psychological perspective as he had decided it was completely hopeless. All I can do now is know that if another person I love develops this problem in the future that I am well equipped to help them. There is so much hope for this condition on the horizon, knowledge about diet, exercise, behaviour and medication that I'm determined to know as much as I can so they can feel strong and hopeful instead of powerless and despairing.

Im very sorry to hear about your relative. I think for those of us left behind there will always be an awful lot of could have/would have/should have's. I did everything I possibly could to try and help my own father. Im sure you did all you could do at the time as well. In the situation of the bystander, there is only so much that one can do - you cannot live someone elses life and make it better.

Sarkosy

Alcoholism may not be a disease but addiction certainly is. Take nicotine for example. It is one of the most addictive drugs on the planet yet not as powerful as other drugs ie you don't wake up at night craving for a fag. The same cannot be true for alcohol, heroin,xanax etc. Once you become physically addicted to a substance especially a powerful one like alcohol (ethanol) or heroin you have lost the choice to aptstain or not because of the severe withdrawal's.

I use nicotine as an example because anyone who became addicted will surly experienced how difficult to stop smoking, and will probably have attempted quitting many times before success. Remember that nicotine has very mild detox effects compared to some of the harder drugs like alcohol.

Very little is still known about the effects of addiction on the brain. But it is safe to say when you disrupt the delicate balance of neurotransmitters and receptors the outcome cannot be fully predicted.

One more point. The people who think that addiction is a moral deficiency should be aware that nobody ever wanted to become an addict.

Sarkosy

My name is John and I'm an alcoholic......................

It is of no surprise that this tread would lead to a polarisation of AA membership.
There are many two steppers about. They admit they have a problem (step 1) and then they go out and like some bible bashing egotistical evangelist try to impose their newly discovered miracle on anyone they suspect of excess drinking.(step 12 is about helping others) hence the word two steppers.

Many people are polarised when they hear that 3 letter word GOD. They think that AA or NA,GA,WWA, is nothing more than a religious racket. The truth is that AA or any other 12 step program is anything but religious.

Most of us have had a negative experience of religion in our lives. We have been dammed to hell with all its fire and brimstone for our errand ways. We have prayed to all kinds of Gods to help us in our battle to no avail. Its no wonder when we here the word God we recoil.

AA is not a religious organisation. It is a spiritual one. The belief in a spiritual being is absolutely essential. It is the corner stone of all 12 step programs. I am by birth (not by choice) a Roman Catholic. I don't use my religion in my program. There is too many rules and regulations. I do however believe in something. For me Buddhism is very helpful. But the bottom line is if you are not willing to sign up to spirituality you're just wasting your time. What you are looking for is a way to recover on your terms. You have already tried your terms many times without success, will the next time be any different?

Wattle

iguana wrote: »

I attended al-anon for about 18 months in the UK and Ireland, and I also went to open AA meetings as an observer, and I'm afraid I think that 12 Step groups can have a very cultish element to them. (The don't make much of their money through their meeting collections, it's mostly made through their publishing wing. I can't believe how many of their magazines and books I bought after they were heavily recommended to me, and they were all full of vague variations of the same nonsense, sort of like the JW Watchtower magazine with a focus on alcohol and how many excuses I had to make about forgetting my wallet once I decided to stop buying them.)

Mostly they are full of very lovely people but so much of the programme is nonsensical and is the total opposite to much that is recommended by up to date medicine and psychology. The whole idea of powerlessness is one of the most dangerous things you can teach to an addict, feeling strong and hopeful is a very powerful tool in addiction recovery and taking that away in order to give your will to a god/higher power is dangerous and I don't doubt that's why AA has such low success rates and enormous relapse rates. Just as dangerous, or maybe more so, is the al-anon advice which is given to families, advising them to emotionally detach from their loved one, as many studies show that familial, especially spousal, support is a key factor for recovered addicts.

I met some great people in al-anon and I 100% agree that peer support for both addicts and their families is a key element of getting through addiction. But if it is coming at the price of feeling pressured into following a potentially damaging programme, within an organisation which does not do all it can to protect it's most vulnerable members, who it is promising to help. If it spouts lies, such and "rarely have we seen a person fail" or announcing that "it's AA, or jail, institutions or death" and if it tells people who are sober that they are still not recovered because their disease is so progressive that even when they aren't drinking "it is out doing push-ups in the parking lot" instead of allowing them to recover fully and then get on with their lives. If it isolates addicts from the "normies" and pushes their spouses and families to al-anon with veiled threats of marriage break-up. If it has a phenomenal rate of divorce in it's long-term members, one which is much higher than that for other recovered addicts which isn't actually any higher than the rest of society. Then it does a lot more harm than good and I strongly urge anyone looking for a peer support group to try LifeRing, SMART or one of the many free groups run by their local health service.

I went to AA for a while after I quit but I found it was wrecking my head as much as drink ever did. After a while I found it was the same as going to mass every day when you don't believe in God. Some very nice people but dedicated to absolute pie in the sky notions.

I was told I would drink if I stopped going to meetings and here I am eight years later sober and happy no bull**** cult required.

allydylan

to people that said alcoholism is a choice don't know what there talking about, with all due respect
it's not a choice!! well it wasn't a choice for my mother at least. there are people out there that do choose to drink more than they should but i believe that they can choose to drink less if they wanted to

to me all addictions are diseases, so yes alcoholism is a disease

Long Term Louth

iguana wrote: »

I attended al-anon for about 18 months in the UK and Ireland, and I also went to open AA meetings as an observer, and I'm afraid I think that 12 Step groups can have a very cultish element to them. (The don't make much of their money through their meeting collections, it's mostly made through their publishing wing. I can't believe how many of their magazines and books I bought after they were heavily recommended to me, and they were all full of vague variations of the same nonsense, sort of like the JW Watchtower magazine with a focus on alcohol and how many excuses I had to make about forgetting my wallet once I decided to stop buying them.)

Mostly they are full of very lovely people but so much of the programme is nonsensical and is the total opposite to much that is recommended by up to date medicine and psychology. The whole idea of powerlessness is one of the most dangerous things you can teach to an addict, feeling strong and hopeful is a very powerful tool in addiction recovery and taking that away in order to give your will too a god/higher power is dangerous and I don't doubt that's why AA has such low success rates and enormous relapse rates. Just as dangerous, or maybe more so, is the al-anon advice which is given to families, advising them to emotionally detach from their loved one, as many studies show that familial, especially spousal, support is a key factor for recovered addicts.

I met some great people in al-anon and I 100% agree that peer support for both addicts and their families is a key element of getting through addiction. But if it is coming at the price of feeling pressured into following a potentially damaging programme, within an organisation which does not do all it can to protect it's most vulnerable members, who it is promising to help. If it spouts lies, such and "rarely have we seen a person fail" or announcing that "it's AA, or jail, institutions or death" and if it tells people who are sober that they are still not recovered because their disease is so progressive that even when they aren't drinking "it is out doing push-ups in the parking lot" instead of allowing them to recover fully and then get on with their lives. If it isolates addicts from the "normies" and pushes their spouses and families to al-anon with veiled threats of marriage break-up. If it has a phenomenal rate of divorce in it's long-term members, one which is much higher than that for other recovered addicts which isn't actually any higher than the rest of society. Then it does a lot more harm than good and I strongly urge anyone looking for a peer support group to try LifeRing, SMART or one of the many free groups run by their local health service.

I have read many of your posts on this issue and infomative as they are I feel a lot of your comments are based on your opinion (highlighted) and those associated with the medical process, all fine, however, you fail to say that the 12 step programme has and is working for many alcoholics and you appear to be dismissing AA meetings far too trivially. An addict is never recovered but remains an addict My humble opinion

eternal

its a disease of the mind.a part of me hates alcohol for what ive seen it do to people close to me.

Sarkosy

Long Term Louth wrote: »

I have read many of your posts on this issue and infomative as they are I feel a lot of your comments are based on your opinion (highlighted) and those associated with the medical process, all fine, however, you fail to say that the 12 step programme has and is working for many alcoholics and you appear to be dismissing AA meetings far to trivially. An addict is never recovered but remains an addict My humble opinion

And when they die they are a dead alcoholic!

Long Term Louth

Sarkosy wrote: »

And when they die they are a dead alcoholic!

Just dead!

Sunnyisland

Most of us have enough of a struggle with alcohol without struggling with whose recovery group is best or worst. I have said it before - If it works for you great, hold onto it, if it doesn't then try another approach. Think of the recovery scene as a restaurant with a large menu - choose what suits and respect other people's choice.
__________________

Long Term Louth

realies wrote: »

Most of us have enough of a struggle with alcohol without struggling with whose recovery group is best or worst. I have said it before - If it works for you great, hold onto it, if it doesn't then try another approach. Think of the recovery scene as a restaurant with a large menu - choose what suits and respect other people's choice.
__________________

Totally agree, and think those who dont suffer directly, should dismiss ANY form of potential recovery available be it AA, higher power, medication etc.

RussellTuring

Long Term Louth wrote: »

I have read many of your posts on this issue and infomative as they are I feel a lot of your comments are based on your opinion (highlighted) and those associated with the medical process, all fine, however, you fail to say that the 12 step programme has and is working for many alcoholics and you appear to be dismissing AA meetings far too trivially. An addict is never recovered but remains an addict My humble opinion

My understanding is that AA recovery rates aren't significantly higher than even no treatment. Do you have some figures that say otherwise? I don't think AA publish any.

TheyKnowMyIP

The solution = learn some self control

It ain't rocket science imo

Wattle

RussellTuring wrote: »

My understanding is that AA recovery rates aren't significantly higher than even no treatment. Do you have some figures that say otherwise? I don't think AA publish any.

5% according to Penn & Teller

Wattle

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

The solution = learn some self control

It ain't rocket science imo

If you truly are an addict self control will not work. You do not arrive at a situation where you become a moderate drinker. It just doesn't work that way.

Long Term Louth

RussellTuring wrote: »

My understanding is that AA recovery rates aren't significantly higher than even no treatment. Do you have some figures that say otherwise? I don't think AA publish any.

Iguana is the person for the statistics. Personally, I do know that many alcoholics who attend AA and adhere to its programme, manage to stay sober having left AA behind. Not sure if there is any research available in relation to this group.

Long Term Louth

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

The solution = learn some self control

It ain't rocket science imo

Would agree self control is one way, rocket science on the other hand is not so beneficial.

jonnyrudyard

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I am not so sure. Alcoholism does not fit the diagnostic profile of an actual disease. Personally speaking, I am "addicted" to chocolate. This is a result of my choice. I can stop. People with cancer cannot just "stop" metastasis. Self control is a great thing.

Very well summed up and excellent analogy. This is one of the most ridiculous misconceptions on the planet and I'm sick to death of people trying to deflect accountability by calling d*mn near everything under the sun a "disease" or "disorder" (etc etc etc). Props!

RussellTuring

Wattle wrote: »

5% according to Penn & Teller

That's what I've heard.

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Iguana is the person for the statistics. Personally, I do know that many alcoholics who attend AA and adhere to its programme, manage to stay sober having left AA behind. Not sure if there is any research available in relation to this group.

Isn't the premise of AA that you have to stay in the programme?