Is Alcoholism a disease?

woodoo

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

LOL

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh22-1/61-66.pdf

Galway K9

iguana wrote: »

That's a myth. There are numerous references in the first edition of the Big Book to alcoholism being a disease. But Wilson was an opportunistic charlatan throughout his life. What he said about alcoholism has as much validity as what L. Ron Hubbard had to say about extra-terrestrial life.

Where have you got the first edition of the big book? Louis Wilson? Im looking through some edition nto sure and cant find the word "disease" by selectign the "Find" button.

Overheal

Considering enough alcohol can cause lasting damage to your synapses, creating not only the Psychological dependency most people are aware of, but a physiological dependency in that your brain begins expecting the presence of alcohol in the brain to function normally, Alcoholism is not only an addiction but truly a disease. But one that is not irreversible.

Seachmall

woodoo wrote: »

How do you explain the very severe withdrawal a serious alcoholic experiences?

An effect of a disease caused by the alcoholism.

Diabetics may get cravings for sugar but you wouldn't say their addiction to sugar is the disease.

Galway K9

K i dunno why i got into this ego battle after said i wouldnt. Im subseeding and leavign the argument, ye win:rolleyes:

CrazyRabbit

Alcoholism is merely a symptom of stupidity.

woodoo

Seachmall wrote: »

Diabetics may get cravings for sugar but you wouldn't say their addiction to sugar is the disease.

No but the changes in their pancreas is.

Little Acorn

SlimCi wrote: »

Having first hand experience of alcoholism with my mother, it is my opinion that this is a disease. It seems to be carried in the genetic makeup also as my great grandfather and some other family members have also been alcoholic. There is also research that the children of alcoholics are more prone to becoming alcoholic themselves. Having watched my mother go through the agony of trying to stop for years broke my heart but eventually with the help of others she succeeded. Given that I was an only child with a dead father and an alcholic mother I don't think that she MADE A CHOICE to hurt her much loved child, she couldn't help it and I saw first hand the pain it caused my mother that she just couldn't control it. The funny thing also is it has nothing to do with copious amounts of drink, its that reliance on HAVING to have one two or three. I hope those of you who have been so black and white in your negative opinions never have to face this problem with your children or relations as life is made up of varying shades of grey, and I hope you would not be so judgemental then. My mother is now dead, and very much missed and I am so proud of her that she managed to kick the habit, she did it for her family and certainly not for herself, because she just didn't love herself enough for that.

Somewhat similar situation myself SlimCi. My own mother has had a drink problem since I was a child. I got put into foster care when I was 10. She eventually went to a treatment center, and after her being sober for an extended time, and after several court hearings, I got allowed back home in a couple of years. She was sober for years, things were good, but then she went back drinking again. There was no specific reason that I know off, nothing she said that set her off. She also suffers from depression aside from her alcoholism so I don't know if that played a factor. She went worse than she had ever been before. Constantly in hospital. On the life support machine and in intensive care a few times. Guards bringing her home for finding her drunk or near passed out in town etc.
She hated what she was doing and how she was hurting us so much but just couldn't stop. She said she wished she was dead, and was only sticking around because of us. Thankfully after years more of this, she went back to a treatment center and has been sober since. She said she wanted to do it for herself this time. She is also on medication for depression. Her mood and lifestyle has improved so much. She was one of those people who could go months without touching drink, but then disappear on a month long binge. I was always hugely close to her though and still am.
Yes at times I got mad, I would think she's selfish and didn't give a fcuk about us, and she embarrassed me infront of my friends so many times. But when she was sober I was so happy, she is one of the closest people in the world to me when sober, and the best mother anyone could ask for. She has done and still does so much for me to help me in life. Alcohol just turns her into a completely different, unrecognizable person.
I am happy that she has got her life back on track, and I hope it stays that way. I believe she can do it, but I will always have that fear that a few years down the line she might slip again.
I don't think an alcoholic is something anybody would choose to be.

Seachmall

woodoo wrote: »

No but the changes in their pancreas is.

Exactly.

A heavy drinker can undergo a change in their body that results in cravings for alcohol. Reducing the alcohol intake can result in the body readapting.

It is that change that is the disease, the alcoholism is a symptom of the disease not the disease itself.

Like I said it's a semantic argument with no real benefit. If calling the symptom the disease helps someone get better then I think that's a sound method.

iguana

Galway K9 wrote: »

Where have you got the first edition of the big book? Louis Wilson? Im looking through some edition nto sure and cant find the word "disease" by selectign the "Find" button.

The word Wilson specifically used was "illness."

celj

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Alcoholism is merely a symptom of stupidity.

Unbelievable.

As someone who alcohol nearly killed and who fights it every day I find what you have posted insulting.
I know people from every walk of life who are affected by alcoholism and fight it daily.
You are obviously lucky enough to have never been touched by it.:mad:

iguana

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Yes, heroine is addictive and people get hooked on it, but people have also recovered from heroine addiction. And heroine is immediately addictive (allegedly).

Lady heroes are addictive?:eek:

stovelid

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I am not so sure. Alcoholism does not fit the diagnostic profile of an actual disease. Personally speaking, I am "addicted" to chocolate. This is a result of my choice. I can stop. People with cancer cannot just "stop" metastasis. Self control is a great thing.

Could you put some of this much vaunted self-control to work against your pathological smugness?

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Alcoholism is merely a symptom of stupidity.

I would love to say what I feel here but you're not worth a ban.

Chuck Stone

Calling it a disease allows those diagnosed with it to take on the 'sick role'

How does the sick role work?

• Rights:
  • The sick person is exempt from normal social roles
  • The sick person is not responsible for their condition

• Obligations:
  • The sick person should try to get well
  • The sick person should seek technically competent help and cooperate with the medical professional

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_role

In other words a cop out for the 'diseased' individual and money for a 'professional'.

Here's some anecdotal evidence from earlier in the thread.

whatdoicare wrote: »

I have two close/immediate family members who are alcoholics and roll out this disease crap the whole time - it never occurred to them until some idiot in AA gave them this excuse.

They drink because they love to drink, they love it from the planning and hoarding stage to the first sip, the getting away with it for a while stage, till they get blotto to the shouting matches, feeling sorry for themselves stage, insisting they'll change stage to the hugs all round and forgiveness stage.

They most especially love the drama and chaos that goes with it all.

They live for it - to them it's like living in a series drama like coronation street all the time! Everyone in the family and our immediate world is revolving around them 24/7 - it pops up in all our conversations, in all their conversations, it's all neighbours talk to us about.

They take over all our big occasions, our holidays, birthdays, weddings. We spend all those bending over backwards to make sure anything they want happens so they'll be there - SOBER. Otherwise, as punishment, our special days are cancelled- we now must spend this day in blackness as the Alcoholic indulges and abuses us- both in public and in private. Even if the day isn't cancelled - the day is black - the Alcoholic like a black cloud weighing on all our heads.

It's the ultimate attention seeking and controlling behaviour. Alcoholism is most definitely NOT a disease - it's a disease on the family for certain but for the Alcoholic it's something far more self centered and selfish.

Well said ^^.

Lab_Mouse

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Homeopathy is pseudoscience.

Your OP is pseudobolloxology

woodoo

Seachmall wrote: »

It is that change that is the disease, the alcoholism is a symptom of the disease not the disease itself.

Similarly low blood sugar produces symptoms too.

TheyKnowMyIP

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

Your OP is pseudobolloxology

Your post is an opinion. The burden of proof lies with those that claim Alcoholism is a real clinical disease. So far, I am not convinced.

Galway K9

iguana wrote: »

The word Wilson specifically used was "illness."

Thats not diease.

Seachmall

woodoo wrote: »

Similarly low blood sugar produces symptoms too.

I don't see your point.

Micky Dolenz

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Alcoholism is merely a symptom of stupidity.

The irony :rolleyes:

This is a sensitive subject considering how prevalent the condition is here. Any and all trolling will result in action.

If it can't be discussed maturely, thread will get shut down.

Thanks

iguana

Galway K9 wrote: »

Thats not diease.

Actually it is, the definition of the word illness is; poor health resulting from disease of body or mind.

woodoo

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Calling it a disease allows those diagnosed with it to take on the 'sick role'

How does the sick role work?


In other words a cop out for the 'diseased' individual and money for a 'professional'.

Calling it a disease is no excuse for not addressing it and getting sober though. Everyone can get sober but it takes hard work.

I just get annoyed when i hear people who have no experience of it smugly quote a liking for chocolate as if its the same thing.

Personally i prefer illness to disease. That said i don't discount the disease theory. I'm not a doctor so i don't know the exact effects on the nervous system or the biochemical processes involved in the addiction.

stovelid

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Yes, heroine is addictive and people get hooked on it, but people have also recovered from heroine addiction..

I developed a Victorian historical fiction habit after being exposed to Persuasion and Emma at the age of 17 in my school which was in a tough area and I had the misfortune to fall in with an inspirational English teacher. Unfortunately it was a gateway drug to costume drama and then Kenneth Brannagh Shakespearean adaptations.

pebbles21

Was going to devour the 12 cans i have in the fridge since last week, until i read this thread............:o

superbad50

I think it is a genetic disease of the mind in many. some people choose to let it control them , others take action and let the stresses of everyday life determine how much they consume. The most part it is a cultural trait , tradition whatever you want to call it that we have learned to be influenced by others. i do feel for many it is a disease that simply is genetic and cannot be cured.

Chuck Stone

woodoo wrote: »

Calling it a disease is no excuse for not addressing it and getting sober though. Everyone can get sober but it takes hard work.

Yes but it's used as an excuse not to get sober. 'Oh I can't help it I have a disease'.

I just get annoyed when i hear people who have no experience of it smugly quote a liking for chocolate as if its the same thing.

Well why can't people who are morbidly obese say they have an 'eating disease' it's just as valid imo.

Personally i prefer illness to disease.

I prefer addict myself.

That said i don't discount the disease theory.

Unless there's proof it should be discounted.

I'm not a doctor so i don't know the exact effects on the nervous system or the biochemical processes involved in the addiction.

I think you might be talking about the effects of alcohol abuse rather than the compulsion to drink it.

It's not so much the word disease as it's connotation. Disease implies that it is something you have no control over which is a total bull**** and opens avenues for the diagnosis to be abused by the person diagnosed and charlatans who can 'cure' the disease.

woodoo

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Well why can't people who are morbidly obese say they have an 'eating disease' it's just as valid imo.

The one big difference (if you excuse the pun) is that you won't begin withdrawing from steak and kidney pies once you stop eating them.

DoneDL

celj wrote: »

Unbelievable.

As someone who alcohol nearly killed and who fights it every day I find what you have posted insulting.
I know people from every walk of life who are affected by alcoholism and fight it daily.
You are obviously lucky enough to have never been touched by it.:mad:

Probably the most realistic and sensible comment in this thread.

TheyKnowMyIP

celj wrote: »

Unbelievable.

As someone who alcohol nearly killed and who fights it every day I find what you have posted insulting.
I know people from every walk of life who are affected by alcoholism and fight it daily.
You are obviously lucky enough to have never been touched by it.:mad:

It's a very serious problem alright. Don't get me wrong, Never suggested it isn't a serious societal issue, it's just I am not sure it qualifies as a disease. Just to be aware, I know a mate that lost his dad to alcohol some years back.

He is doing well despite being told he may follow the same path eventually. He would not touch the stuff if you paid him too. We place too much emphasis on alcohol in this country. Beer is cheaper than coke ffs. The abuse will only skyrocket the further the economy goes down the toilet.

Drink and Irish culture seem inseperable. Not sure if this is a good thing for future generations imo.

lastlaugh

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

It's a very serious problem alright. Don't get me wrong, Never suggested it isn't a serious societal issue, it's just I am not sure it qualifies as a disease. Just to be aware, I know a mate that lost his dad to alcohol some years back.

He is doing well despite doctors claiming he will follow the same path eventually. He would not touch the stuff if you paid him too. We place too much emphasis on alcohol in this country. Beer is cheaper than coke ffs. The abuse will only skyrocket the further the economy goes down the toilet.

Drink and Irish culture seem inseperable imo. Not sure if this is a good thing for future generations imo.

What kind of Doctor would tell your mate 'he will follow the same path eventually' despite him not drinking himself?

Hmmm?