Fine Gael's Brian Hayes proposes to re-erect British imperial monuments in Dublin.

JMSE

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

how about demolishing Trinity college

great idea! didnt realise it was an option

add in the border and I'm yer man :pac:

Dyslexic I am

No

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Being Irish =/= to anti British.

I like our neigbours FWIW and tip my hat to their achievements but I won't be fed sugar coated ****e by the 'don't mention the famine' west Brits (yeah, I went there) who seem to crawl out of the woodwork to talk up the colonization of this country as some sort of charitable crusade to save the Irish.

Pure bollocks.

Yet when I point out that there is a plethora of British buildings and infrastructure you suddenly go all quiet?

Dyslexic I am

No

Seanchai wrote: »

Indeed, another riposte from the bigoted blinkered nationalistic type who view British imperialism as respectable and worthy of commemorating in lands beyond Britain.

If the Irish don't support the erection of British colonial monuments glorifying savagery, racist supremacy and violence they are "anti-British", because all British people are supportive of colonialism/racism/violence? Right?

You were saying about "pathetic"?

Most buildings pre 1922 are British monuments, you painfully ignorant fool.:rolleyes:

Chuck Stone

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Yet when I point out that there is a plethora of British buildings and infrastructure you suddenly go all quiet?

I don't advocate the destruction of anything FWIW. I fully accept that there is British heritage here.

I can admire the architecture of a building or fort built by the Brits but it doesn't mean I have to like what it represented.

Chuck Stone

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Most buildings pre 1922 are British monuments, you painfully ignorant fool.:rolleyes:

Didn't take long for your prejudice to spill out.

niallers1

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Most buildings pre 1922 are British monuments, you painfully ignorant fool.:rolleyes:

Wow, Only ten posts and he's already insulting people..

Dyslexic I am

No

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't advocate the destruction of anything FWIW. I fully accept that there is British heritage here.

I can admire the architecture of a building or fort built by the Brits but it doesn't mean I have to like what it represented.

Now we're getting somewhere.

If you can appreciate a British building you can jolly well admire the artistic merit of a British statue. And you can do so without behaving like a petulant, spoilt little child.

alchemist33

suicide_circus wrote: »

Sure why not change O'Connell Street to Cromwell street? Knock down the Spire and replace it with a stature of cromwell and king billy doing a jig on the corpses of michael collins and wolfe tonne.

Wolfe Tone's dead? Feck, I only just saw him in one of the Martin McGuinness threads.

Seanchai

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Most buildings pre 1922 are British monuments, you painfully ignorant fool.:rolleyes:

Tut. Tut. "British monuments" are not equal to "British colonial monuments glorifying savagery, racist supremacy and violence".

Most people can see the difference.


So not only have you resorted to an ad hominem on a poster, but you did so based on an inability to understand basic English. "Pathetic" indeed.

JMSE

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Yet when I point out that there is a plethora of British buildings and infrastructure you suddenly go all quiet?

Werent most of Dublins main buildings such as the Customs House, Bank of Ireland on College Green, the Four Courts, Merrion Square, Parnell Square, the canals linking Dublin with the Shannon all built by Irish money in the late 18th century. In 1779 the British govt had to abolish commercial restrictions on Ireland and things here took off - tiger style!

Chuck Stone

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Now we're getting somewhere.

If you can appreciate a British building you can jolly well admire the artistic merit of a British statue.

I can appreciate the design and engineering that goes into building a tank but that doesn't mean I should appreciate the intentions of the guy driving it or the fools directing him.

And you can do so without behaving like a petulant, spoilt little child.

Oh dear you just can't hold all that bitterness back can you?

You're the only person here who is mud-slinging.

Way to go.

(in before the ban)

DIF

No

s20101938 wrote: »

The "cause of Irish Freedom"? lol. So a bunch of unelected terrorists claiming to represent the people take it upon themselves to take over the GPO. The ordinary people of Ireland were proud to be British subjects, the "British soldiers" in Ireland were made up primarily of Irishmen, most of our judges were Irish, we were well represented in the British Parliament and were well on our way to Home Rule. The people of Ireland overall had a better standard of living than much of the British Mainland. Since then a revisionist campaign of republican bull5hit propaganda makes out that we were brutally oppressed.

The "liberators" never gave a damn about the people of Ireland, they only cared about their own pockets. Why shouldn't these monuments be re-erected? Why shouldn't we be proud of our British heritage? I certainly am, far more than I am of some imaginary contrived "Celtic" nonsense pseudo-culture reinvented years after its natural death in the 1650s.

We forget that while our ancestors were dying in the Famine, millions in the UK were also dying of malnutrition in slums in all British cities. I was watching a documentary on the slums in the 19th century - only a few miles from 10 Downing Street & Buckingham Palace, babies, kids and whole families died of starvation and ill health.

So not only did the Irish get a crap deal in the 19th century, so did families in London and all over Britain. Our version of Irish history has been written with a serious lack of balance.... thanks to Dev (an American!) and his personal crusade that dragged Ireland from a modern vibrate nation up until the 1920's with a modern infrastructure(world class rail network, trams, liner ports and road network) to the dark antiquated backward place we landed in the 1950's. Here in Cork, Henry Ford opened his first factory outside of the USA. It employed 1000's of Cork people, Dunlops built a big factory along side it, but our Independence put an end to plans to expand the factory, he built another factory in Dagenham, England - which is still the one of the biggest car factories in Europe. And Fords in Cork finally closed in the early 1980's because of the EU.

Also in Cork, Cobh Harbour(was Queenstown) had a vibrate Royal Navy base - employing 1000's both directly and indirectly for over 300 years. You can now visit Spike Island and see the old Navy base - a vast facility and had the latest technology up until the end of WW1.

So if you ask me, we should have done what Scotland is planning to do now - have Home Rule and have it's own government (but not FF haha) but stay within the UK and share the currency and the defence forces.

We also wouldn't have the IMF / EU / Germany & France meddling in our budgets!!! So in 100 years all we've done is changed our Masters.... surely it should have been the case of the saying - better the devil ya know???

I think we should say leave the Euro and rejoin the UK - but obviously not pledge allegiance to the Queen / Monachy!!! We have more in common with the UK then we'll ever have with the French or the Germans.

Dyslexic I am

No

Seanchai wrote: »

Tut. Tut. "British monuments" are not equal to "British colonial monuments glorifying savagery, racist supremacy and violence".

Most people can see the difference.


So not only have you resorted to an ad hominem on a poster, but you did so based on an inability to understand basic English. "Pathetic" indeed.

I see British buildings as colonial monuments that were erected to show this country what it could not achieve.

Irish architecture since independence isn't exactly something to be proud of, is it?

Biggins

donjfarrell wrote: »

We forget that while our ancestors were dying in the Famine, millions in the UK were also dying of malnutrition in slums in all British cities. I was watching a documentary on the slums in the 19th century - only a few miles from 10 Downing Street & Buckingham Palace, babies, kids and whole families died of starvation and ill health.

So not only did the Irish get a crap deal in the 19th century, so did families in London and all over Britain. Our version of Irish history has been written with a serious lack of balance.... thanks to Dev (an American!) and his personal crusade that dragged Ireland from a modern vibrate nation up until the 1920's with a modern infrastructure(world class rail network, trams, liner ports and road network) to the dark antiquated backward place we landed in the 1950's. Here in Cork, Henry Ford opened his first factory outside of the USA. It employed 1000's of Cork people, Dunlops built a big factory along side it, but our Independence put an end to plans to expand the factory, he built another factory in Dagenham, England - which is still the one of the biggest car factories in Europe. And Fords in Cork finally closed in the early 1980's because of the EU.

Also in Cork, Cobh Harbour(was Queenstown) had a vibrate Royal Navy base - employing 1000's both directly and indirectly for over 300 years. You can now visit Spike Island and see the old Navy base - a vast facility and had the latest technology up until the end of WW1.

So if you ask me, we should have done what Scotland is planning to do now - have Home Rule and have it's own government (but not FF haha) but stay within the UK and share the currency and the defence forces.

We also wouldn't have the IMF / EU / Germany & France meddling in our budgets!!! So in 100 years all we've done is changed our Masters.... surely it should have been the case of the saying - better the devil ya know???

I think we should say leave the Euro and rejoin the UK - but obviously not pledge allegiance to the Queen / Monachy!!! We have more in common with the UK then we'll ever have with the French or the Germans.

Thats a whole HUGE topic in itself.
Will just say - its NOT going to happen. Lets be real.

KeithM89_old

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Now we're getting somewhere.

If you can appreciate a British building you can jolly well admire the artistic merit of a British statue. And you can do so without behaving like a petulant, spoilt little child.

Banned

Chuck Stone

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

I see British buildings as colonial monuments that were erected to show this country what it could not achieve.

Savagery, brutal colonization of less technologically advanced societies and the like?

Na pal. Unlike the British we Irish migrated to all corners of the world bringing our culture and custom with us without one shot fired.

Try to put a little context into that head of yours.

PseudoFamous

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Irish architecture since independence isn't exactly something to be proud of, is it?

I dunno if you're trapped in the 60s, but developments Dublin and its satellite towns, and the other cities, are pretty snazzy these days. There was a bit of a brutalist movement in the 80s, but thankfully that's gone.

Some of my favourite examples of New-Irish architecture are the Central Criminal Courts, The Aviva Stadium, and even Connolly Station's main entrance.

JMSE

donjfarrell wrote: »

We forget that while our ancestors were dying in the Famine, millions in the UK were also dying of malnutrition in slums in all British cities. So not only did the Irish get a crap deal in the 19th century, so did families in London and all over Britain. Our version of Irish history has been written with a serious lack of balance

How can we forget? Local UK history is not taught in Irish schools, anyway one would have presumed that life was fairly poor there too for mere mortals, no surprises there.

Our version of Irish history is good enough for me.

Chuck Stone

donjfarrell wrote: »

We forget that while our ancestors were dying in the Famine, millions in the UK were also dying of malnutrition in slums in all British cities.

I think you make very valid points and it's important for us to remember that it was the priviledged British elite who fucked us over rather than your average British punter.

[/marxist analysis]

DIF

No

Ya I agree, we've made our bed in Europe now and there's no going back - wish is a pity cos we now have so many other nations meddling in our affairs.

ascanbe

wild_cat wrote: »

Its just preserving our history..

Why are we still so touchy about the English? They don't opress us anymore and have a crumbled empire!

This wouldn't be preserving our history; these statues don't exist anymore/aren't currently in our state, so can't be preserved.
Not rebuilding/re-erecting them would be preserving our history as our history includes these statues being destroyed/rendered non-existent in this country
Building new statues, replicas of the ones that once existed, or returning statues that were damaged and are now in Britain, would be a new venture and a pointless one.

Einhard

In general, I don't really a problem with existing statues commemorating those who fought for the British. They're part of our heritage and, for better or worse, part of what we are. However, I see no merit in erecting new statues to such people, or even replacing them, and I can certainly see no reasonable case for honouring Gough, a bigot brutal even by the standards of his time.

Fitzerb

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

This thread provides more evidence of the prevailing anti - British mentality on here.

Seeing as Irish people are so touchy about British artefacts, how about demolishing Trinity college, the thousands of British styled buildings, and uprooting the railways(or what's left of them after incompetent mismanagement).

Pretty pathetic stuff from pretty pathetic people.

Thats a somewhat simplistic analysis. Why destroy something that is in situ, the argument is should we spend money on resurrecting old monuments to the British in Ireland and is it right in principle to do so.

If you are suggesting that based on the original post that your argument is we should remove all remaining building or memories of British Rule in Ireland then we should also remove the thousands of headstones of the Irish people killed by the British, just in case we remember or try and pay respects to them for fighting for Irish freedom.

It amazes me how the current Government wants us all to move on from our past by welcoming the Queens and then when someone from the past (McGuinness) threatens the cosy cartel they throw up in past in bucket fulls.

If we have money to spend on our promoting and remembering our heritage I suggest we build a statue to Ann Devlin one of Ireland's greatest republicans

Wertz

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

Seeing as Irish people are so touchy about British artefacts, how about demolishing Trinity college, the thousands of British styled buildings, and uprooting the railways(or what's left of them after incompetent mismanagement).

Why would you demolish perfectly sound and perfectly functioning buildings and (not-so) perfectly functioning railways?
That's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I'd hardly call any of the structures you mention artefacts and I'd be fairly sure that their construction and much of the capital spend were on the backs on the Irish people.
To compare them to memorial statues is a pretty weak stance, especailly statues which have long been removed...

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

I see British buildings as colonial monuments that were erected to show this country what it could not achieve.

Irish architecture since independence isn't exactly something to be proud of, is it?

I see these buildings as infrastructural assets designed by British architects to serve a purpose or function in a city/country where they ruled, at the time of construction, and which they foresaw as being vital to the interests of the country both then and in the future (which they weren't to know)... I really don't think that they were erected as some sort of "f*ck you paddy, look what we can do" statement to the local peasantry...that you would claim so merely illustrates your attitude to the British as being somehow superior, which is indeed true to form for the elite of said countrymen...

Kev_ps3

PseudoFamous wrote: »

I say we wait until we see statues of Irish republican heroes in London before we go about putting their heroes in Dublin.

Shur they're a part of British history, but for some reason, no one wants to acknowledge it.

They have statuses of Cromwell, a man who butchered thousands of Irish people. Its like the Germans having a statue to Heinrich Himmler. The Jews would be going mad about it, but here, no way, our elite dont utter a word, in fact they want to erect statutes to people who invaded and ruined this country. Nothing short of criminal.

Cantona's Collars

Shame on him for a stupid idea,one for the waste of money and two for what they'd represent.Those monuments are consigned to history and should stay there.
FFS there's still a monument to an English general in Wexford Town who was responsible for the butchering of Irish men,women and children in 1793.Maybe he wants to pimp that up aswell.

ejmaztec

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

They have statuses of Cromwell, a man who butchered thousands of Irish people. Its like the Germans having a statue to Heinrich Himmler. The Jews would be going mad about it, but here, no way, our elite dont utter a word, in fact they want to erect statutes to people who invaded and ruined this country. Nothing short of criminal.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the British royalists don't make a big song and dance about having statues of king-killer Cromwell around the place, and they accept it as a part of history.

He was also responsible for butchering thousands of English people, during and after the English Civil War.

There's never just one side to a story.

Fitzerb

ejmaztec wrote: »

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the British royalists don't make a big song and dance about having statues of king-killer Cromwell around the place, and they accept it as a part of history.

He was also responsible for butchering thousands of English people, during and after the English Civil War.

There's never just one side to a story.

Yeah sure why not, lets put one up to the Paras for the Bloody Sunday event..... Just because the Brits have no problem with looking at the figures of the instigators of their outrageous history across the World does not mean we should

ejmaztec

Fitzerb wrote: »

Yeah sure why not, lets put one up to the Paras for the Bloody Sunday event..... Just because the Brits have no problem with looking at the figures of the instigators of their outrageous history across the World does not mean we should

They're hardly likely to have statues of those characters are they? Comparing the leader of a country with a few brainless squaddies?

KeithAFC

Oliver Cromwell has/had a mural in Ulster. Not sure if it still exists.

ejmaztec

KeithAFC wrote: »

Oliver Cromwell has/had a mural in Ulster. Not sure if it still exists.

I expect that there are a lot more murals of the Dutch guy who couldn't speak English

KeithAFC

ejmaztec wrote: »

I expect that there are a lot more murals of the Dutch guy who couldn't speak English

Rightly so. Cromwell wasn't as inspiring as William III.

Solair

Apart from the stupidity of the proposal - THERE IS NO MONEY and other spending and policy priorities like fixing the damn mess that is the HSE & hospital system!

Judgement Day

zerks wrote: »

Shame on him for a stupid idea,one for the waste of money and two for what they'd represent.Those monuments are consigned to history and should stay there.
FFS there's still a monument to an English general in Wexford Town who was responsible for the butchering of Irish men,women and children in 1798.Maybe he wants to pimp that up aswell.

Which one - not the Vallotin monument surely?

ejmaztec

KeithAFC wrote: »

Rightly so. Cromwell wasn't as inspiring as William III.

Had I been around in their times, I would have been inspired to join those opposing them.

KeithAFC

ejmaztec wrote: »

Had I been around in their times, I would have been inspired to join those opposing them.

We could have met on the battlefield. Unless we can go back in time lol. Some of the best battles in history happened back then. Now it is too much high tech and fighter jets.

Zebra3

Solair wrote: »

Apart from the stupidity of the proposal - THERE IS NO MONEY and other spending and policy priorities like fixing the damn mess that is the HSE & hospital system!

There's loads of money.

Don't you know about the pensions we pay out to the likes of Harney and Ahern?

Peep O'Day

Dyslexic I am wrote: »

This thread provides more evidence of the prevailing anti - British mentality on here.

Seeing as Irish people are so touchy about British artefacts, how about demolishing Trinity college, the thousands of British styled buildings, and uprooting the railways(or what's left of them after incompetent mismanagement).

Pretty pathetic stuff from pretty pathetic people.

good to see anti-irish bigotry is alive and well with you and your thankers. :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

KeithAFC wrote: »

We could have met on the battlefield. Unless we can go back in time lol. Some of the best battles in history happened back then. Now it is too much high tech and fighter jets.

I would have respected your white flag.:P

KeithAFC

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would have respected your white flag.:P

Cantona's Collars

Judgement Day wrote: »

Which one - not the Vallotin monument surely?

That's the one,he actually died in 1793 after a skirmish in Wexford town after a failed attempt to free Irish prisoners.The actions of his men left a lot to be desired,he certainly didn't deserve a monument.

Judgement Day

zerks wrote: »

That's the one,he actually died in 1793 after a skirmish in Wexford town after a failed attempt to free Irish prisoners.The actions of his men left a lot to be desired,he certainly didn't deserve a monument.

Zerks - far be it from me to pull you on this but Major Vallotin was not responsible for the massacre of anyone and was in fact one of the first to die in the 1793 skirmish. Some details here:

The 1790s in Wexford was a period of agrarian unrest which was at times brutally repressed by the authorities. This repression would peak in 1798 with the outbreak of armed rebellion, but a serious incident occurred at the site of this monument in 1793.

On the 11th July that year, two men were being transferred to the jail in the Stonebridge area of Wexford town for the non-payment of tithes to support the Anglican Church, when a large mob of supporters gathered to demand their release. They were met by a contingent of local military under the command of Major John Vallotin at the edge of the town. The Major went forward to meet with the leader of the mob, John Moore, a farmer. What happened next is unclear: it is not known what was said between the two men, but it is reputed that the Major became enraged when he saw the mob had taken a soldier as a hostage and ran Moore through the chest with his sword. As he fell, Moore struck the Major with his weapon and killed him. The troops then opened fire on the mob, which fought back and Moore crawled away wounded, taking shelter in a shed opposite the monument where he later died. By the end of the action some 11 men were killed and their bodies were left in view to deter others. Five others were captured hiding in houses in John Street and were hanged at Windmill Hills (up the hill behind the monument) on 26th July for their part in the affray.

For his defence of the establishment, the local Corporation paid for the erection of this plain obilisk marking the spot where Major John Vallotin died.

The monument itself is a fairly innocuous obelisk and I sincerely doubt that many inhabitants of Wexford even know what it commemorates. I am 100% behind those dismissing Brian Hayes' ramblings about reinstating British memorials but we should maintain those that survive along with all the 1798 and other memorials - some of which are also neglected. In some ways the harmless Vallotin memorial now marks the spot where real human tragedy occurred in the Summer of 1793 - how it has survived without some artic ploughing into it is beyond me.