Whats a West Brit and what makes someone a West Brit?

Corsendonk

Ok I posted this in here for a sensible discussion so fingers crossed we get one. Browse through any of the forums on Boards such as AH and Politics and the term West Brit pops up all the time. Sure even a presidential candidate used it earlier in the week but refused to provide a definition of what it means to him when pressed.

Is it based on your ancestry or is it just another term for anglophile ? Well looking at my family tree I seem to have no Anglo Irish blood in the family tree in the last 200 years at least but I do:

• Watch British Football and support a British Team
• Watch British invented sports such as Rugby,Tennis etc
• Listen to British Music
• Speak English and have no interest in learning Irish
• Watch British TV and Movies
• Read British Authors and Newspapers
• Shop at British owned stores
• Eat British Foods

Am I a West Brit? How would you define the term?

mike65

I'm not sure its worth discussing the definitions of a term of abuse.

Corsendonk

mike65 wrote: »

I'm not sure its worth discussing the definitions of a term of abuse.

If its a term of abuse why is it allowed to be used on Boards so freely? And why is a presidental candidate using it when discussing the Irish media?

bigwormbundoran

I personally think that it is people who hold some level of disdain towards traditional Irish culture (whatever that may be), and such, as opposed to merely liking british stuff. I use the term quite a bit to be fair but generally just as a slur for people from the Pale as a whole.

Denerick

Only boorish people use it as an insult. Apparantly if you're well read, interested in history outside of this little green island, interested in any politics outside of the grim domain of little irelander nationalism, or basically independant minded in any way you are immediately labelled a 'west Brit'. Its the equivilent of African Americans taunting educated, articulate and intelligent black folk for 'talking white'.

Of course, it is also used in a light hearted context; ie, for someone who reads the Irish Times and/or hates GAA.

Darlughda

Good question OP!

I hadn't heard the term for nearly 20 years until I heard McGuinness saying it. My immediate response was OMG, what a stupid, provocative thing to say!

So, I was immediately thinking jeez, that is still such a loaded term.

For me, it brought up a snickering kind of attitude towards people who lived in the pale-not folk like me who were second generation culchies, but maybe people who might have been descended from the anglo-irish, but more likely people who aspired to be like those descended from the anglo-irish.

As, I said this is in the context of 20 years ago, so I think there was more of a distinct difference then between people who looked towards Britain for culture, media, ideas, values etc, and those who were more identifiable with a kind of rural Irish model.

Sleepy

It's a term Republicans use to attempt to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I've never been able to see it as a term of abuse because I see nothing wrong with people being British. As such, it reflects more on the person attempting to insult someone than the person they're "insulting" imho.

Denerick

Sleepy wrote: »

It's a term Republicans use to attempt to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I've never been able to see it as a term of abuse because I see nothing wrong with people being British. As such, it reflects more on the person attempting to insult someone than the person they're "insulting" imho.

Normally said Republicans own a Manchester United jersey and watch Eastenders every evening as well. Irony doesn't immediately appear to them.

Dudess

I don't think it's something a person who uses it (in seriousness, not lightheartedly) is able to define themselves - they generally seem thick. It's usually though, as someone said, a lame dig at people republicans are angry at for not supporting the 'ra or whatever.

Corsendonk wrote: »

If its a term of abuse why is it allowed to be used on Boards so freely?

It may be used a lot on Boards, but the posters who use it are generally not taken seriously once they use it.

And why is a presidental candidate using it when discussing the Irish media?

Not sure how that detracts from it being a term of abuse.

Darlughda

Genuine question here, Denerick, is the term 'west brit' really used as you said?

When I was growing up, it did actually mean someone who had pretensions of being a bit of anglophile. Someone who's parents may have had servants and looked towards Britain as the voice of reason and culture?

Dudess

bigwormbundoran wrote: »

I personally think that it is people who hold some level of disdain towards traditional Irish culture (whatever that may be)

What if they had that disdain and a huge interest in, and love for, French culture? There's no West Frenchie slur...

I use the term quite a bit to be fair but generally just as a slur for people from the Pale as a whole.

Lightheartedly I assume?

Denerick

Darlughda wrote: »

Genuine question here, Denerick, is the term 'west brit' really used as you said?

When I was growing up, it did actually mean someone who had pretensions of being a bit of anglophile. Someone who's parents may have had servants and looked towards Britain as the voice of reason and culture?

I say this as somebody from Ulster I'm aware that down south, particularly in the greater Dublin area that it was just another term for someone a bit posh.

Darlughda

Denerick wrote: »

I say this as somebody from Ulster I'm aware that down south, particularly in the greater Dublin area that it was just another term for someone a bit posh.

Shítebags dealing with the real deal here. feckin hell, better choose my words wisely.
I reckon that smilie is a peace process one.
Okay am not doin well, what I meant to say is what you said;
Different defintions as to what a west brit is for someone north and south.

Nonetheless, McGuiness made a mistake using the term because it means one thing up north and a different thing in the republic, a relic of a term signifying a prejudice belonging to another era to us southerners.

However, we have not got to the nub of the OP's question. TBH, When the silence ban went on the speaking of the leaders during the height of the troubles, I do remember my Dad ( who was a natural diplomat), murmur about the influence of the west brits in the media in Ireland.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wolfe Tone

A west brit, in basic terms, is someone who looks down on all things Irish and looks up to all things British.

These people tend to be somewhat unionist in outlook and are often heard berating Irish freedom fighters from all generations and making excuses for Britains behavior.

They hate republicans and have been known to make laws censoring them. They look down on displays of Irish nationalism yet they will fawn and brown-nose to an embaressing degree if they meet a royal.

Often they would not look out of place in the DUP or the Brit conservative party. Quite a few of them in FG over the years. Lots in the media.

Effluo

Denerick wrote: »

Normally said Republicans own a Manchester United jersey and watch Eastenders every evening as well. Irony doesn't immediately appear to them.

I see a lot of people lolling along with you, yet in reality what football team someone supports or TV shows they watch has absolutely nothing to do with republicanism in Ireland.

It's a p silly & irrelevant argument imo


Otherwise though a West Brit is a pretty wide and general term for someone who's Irish and reciprocates Pro-British sentiment.

TheUsual

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

A west brit, in basic terms, is someone who looks down on all things Irish and looks up to all things British.

Often they would not look out of place in the DUP or the Brit conservative party. Quite a few of them in FG over the years. Lots in the media.

Well said.
You know when it going crazy when Irish (Dublin) media is going way beyond what Northern Unionists would say.

Ryan Tubbridy, who is an avid Fianna Fail IRA supporter, would be a classic example. Not because he is well read, just because he is dim. Like 10 Watt lightbulb.

Stromecek

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The narrative you provide in juxtaposition to the "traditional Irish culture"s in itself as absolute and as blinkered as the one you condemn, we could argue for a long time about the worth of any language, the achievements, success and legacy of any national movement and the status of their icons, the idea that through the simple act of speaking a language changing your reality but the absolutism of these positions is self defeating and ultimately useless.

I think the most important aspect of McGuinness running for president is that for the first time the Republic is actually dealing with the legacy of the conflict and its own role in it and its now becoming a discussion of the reality of normal people becoming enravelled in all sorts of circumstances, however morally dubious people might see it.

But when it comes down to it the term west brit is quite simple and tbh quite easily thrown around but it at its core it represents people that express views that are apologetic in terms of colonisation, its system of capitalism, the impact of empire on a society and belittling the attempts of people here to view their own history in a different light from the dominant power of the day

looksee

The definition of west brit is being given as referring to people who have very clear attitudes and opinions on matters relating to Ireland. In fact though the term is used by people who have attitudes and opinions.

So a person living as a blow-in in a small country town where the default attitude was pro all the 'real Irish culture' that was mentioned earlier could find themselves being described as West Brit just because they do not have any great interest in sitting in a pub singing RA songs.

The term West Brit is not a description, it is intended as an insult. It is a catch-all bit of xenophobia which is impossible to debate as it can be used to mean pretty well anything the user wants it to mean.

Dudess

I have no time for Eoghan Harris, Conor Cruise O'Brien types, but still... "west Brit" just seems to me a very juvenile and thick-sounding term.
Most of the time I just see it being thrown as a cheap shot at someone who doesn't agree with provo violence.

Eliot Rosewater

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

A west brit, in basic terms, is someone who looks down on all things Irish and looks up to all things British.

If that is the true definition of "West Brit" then I would hazard a guess that there are actually no true "West Brits" around. Saying that, the Republicans of this country probably believe that if you question any aspect of the Irish nationalist narrative - particularly the righteousness of the 1916 rising - then you are an "Ireland hater" that "looks down on all things Irish and looks up to all things British." It's just a specific case of Republicanism's more general binary outlook on life: you're either with or us or against us.

I think anyone using the word West Brit should be sentenced to a year's vacation outside Ireland (with at least a week stopover in London) to discover the oh-so-shocking fact that there are places and cultures of value outside the Emerald Isle.

Denerick

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

A west brit, in basic terms, is someone who looks down on all things Irish and looks up to all things British.

These people tend to be somewhat unionist in outlook and are often heard berating Irish freedom fighters from all generations and making excuses for Britains behavior.

They hate republicans and have been known to make laws censoring them. They look down on displays of Irish nationalism yet they will fawn and brown-nose to an embaressing degree if they meet a royal.

Often they would not look out of place in the DUP or the Brit conservative party. Quite a few of them in FG over the years. Lots in the media.

Having watched a lot of The Wire lately, I'm very tempted to say 'Thats some bullshít right there'. (Heavy emphasis on 'bull') 'Looks down to all things Irish and looks up to all things British'. So basically you're talking about anglophiles; people who read the British newspapers (tick) watch Newsnight (tick) follow English football (tick for both you and me ) Admire the British literary and artistic tradition (tick, assume its the same for you unless you're a complete neanderthal...) But anyway, I fail to see where the crime is here. You can admire some of the achievements of British culture and still be proud of your accident-of-birth-nationalism BS*...


*IE, nationalism is so innately retarded, if you were born in France you'd be a French nationalist, in England an English nationalist. Put away the damn flag and join the brotherhood of man.

Denerick

Dudess wrote: »

I have no time for Eoghan Harris, Conor Cruise O'Brien types, but still... "west Brit" just seems to me a very juvenile and thick-sounding term.
Most of the time I just see it being thrown as a cheap shot at someone who doesn't agree with provo violence.

Eoghan Harris probably has bipolar disorder or something. He's unhinged. The late O'Brien though... He was a true intellectual, lets give the man some credit. He pissed off the right sort's of people, the kind of folk who like to think Ireland was once a rural idyll with comely maidens dancing round the village green.

Denerick

A little historical context here. Richard Pigott (Of the Pigott forgeries fame) used to label everybody and everyone he didn't like a 'West Briton' in his three Fenian papers in the 1870s. It was literally a term of abuse. These papers (The Shamrock, Flag of Ireland, The Irishman) had wide distribution across the country (Read mainly by IRB members and local fenians) were tolerated by the oh so dreadful British 'occupation', and every article seemed to have the term 'West Briton' in it, employed as a sneer or in a pejorative sense. I urge everyone to roll on down to the national library, look at some of these newspaper articles from the 1870s, and not suffer from excessive projectile vomiting as a result. The sheer small mindedness of it. It was boorish, petty and stupid then, and it still is now.

The funniest thing about Pigott is that he tried to do Parnell in and ended up comitting suicide. It would lead one to think that the louder one derides his opponents for a lack of ideological purity, the more likely he is to be a despicable boorish monster who tries to screw moderate and peaceful nationalists like Parnell. I think.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

A west brit, in basic terms, is someone who looks down on all things Irish and looks up to all things British.

These people tend to be somewhat unionist in outlook and are often heard berating Irish freedom fighters from all generations and making excuses for Britains behavior.

They hate republicans and have been known to make laws censoring them. They look down on displays of Irish nationalism yet they will fawn and brown-nose to an embaressing degree if they meet a royal.

Often they would not look out of place in the DUP or the Brit conservative party. Quite a few of them in FG over the years. Lots in the media.

Having watched a lot of The Wire lately, I'm very tempted to say 'Thats some bullshít right there'. (Heavy emphasis on 'bull') 'Looks down to all things Irish and looks up to all things British'. So basically you're talking about anglophiles; people who read the British newspapers (tick) watch Newsnight (tick) follow English football (tick for both you and me ) Admire the British literary and artistic tradition (tick, assume its the same for you unless you're a complete neanderthal...) But anyway, I fail to see where the crime is here. You can admire some of the achievements of British culture and still be proud of your accident-of-birth-nationalism BS*...


*IE, nationalism is so innately retarded, if you were born in France you'd be a French nationalist, in England an English nationalist. Put away the damn flag and join the brotherhood of man.

Nice try denerick. We both know you post stuff like the above to try and piss people off... How did you describe it to me in the past? Something along the lines of 'channeling the spirit of CCOB, intellectual trollery' sums it up. It makes me laugh though, but I wont be rising to the bait. Bit of a poor effort, we both know you can do better.

mike65

It does suggest a stunted reactionary stance.

Denerick

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Nice try denerick. We both know you post stuff like the above to try and piss people off... How did you describe it to me in the past? Something along the lines of 'channeling the spirit of CCOB, intellectual trollery' sums it up. It makes me laugh though, but I wont be rising to the bait. Bit of a poor effort, we both know you can do better.

That is a non pertinant observation. Please try again.

wee truck big driver

surely its to describe somebody, who although born in ireland wishes that they where british or at the very least are embarassed to be irish.

I must have been living under a rock all my life because this is the first time I've seen or heard the term. And honestly, whats the big deal? Someone who likes something about the British? Is not as if you're being called "West English"... so if you like the Scottish or the Welsh, then you're West British.

Frankly I think some people have to grow the **** up. Most irish people I know have some relations in the UK at some level... either 1st cousins, nieces, grand uncles, etc. Its not as if Ireland has been isolated since the republican movement was started... secondly, most of the posters here are from the Republic, and haven't any real connection with the North.. so why are they getting so bloody personal?

So Bloody retarded. Sounds more like a comment some white supremist trailer trash might make about immigrants. :rolleyes:

irishh_bob

Corsendonk wrote: »

Ok I posted this in here for a sensible discussion so fingers crossed we get one. Browse through any of the forums on Boards such as AH and Politics and the term West Brit pops up all the time. Sure even a presidential candidate used it earlier in the week but refused to provide a definition of what it means to him when pressed.


Is it based on your ancestry or is it just another term for anglophile ? Well looking at my family tree I seem to have no Anglo Irish blood in the family tree in the last 200 years at least but I do:

• Watch British Football and support a British Team
• Watch British invented sports such as Rugby,Tennis etc
• Listen to British Music
• Speak English and have no interest in learning Irish
• Watch British TV and Movies
• Read British Authors and Newspapers
• Shop at British owned stores
• Eat British Foods

Am I a West Brit? How would you define the term?

none of those things make you a west britt

a west britt is someone who believes britain as a nation and as an idea is inehrently superior to anything ireland has ever come up with , they believe the 1916 rising was not only evil but completley without foundation , any suggestion that the irish were sick of being opressed by a colonial power is written off as paranoid peasant talk and that sure only for the british , neither ireland or india for that matter , could ever have achieved anything , we have the britts to thank for our railways , rule of law , civil service etc , the number of people who hold theese views are extremley small and are overwhelmingly represented in the media

conor cruise o brien was a west britt
ruth dudley edwards is a west britt
kevin myers is a west britt although one i do quite like
emer o kelly is a west britt

baschically anyone who works for the sunday inependant

ardmacha

Eat British Foods

Anyone with a positive preference for British food must have some political axe to grind. Anyone picking another nation's food would pick Italian, or French or almost anything.

irishh_bob

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

A west brit, in basic terms, is someone who looks down on all things Irish and looks up to all things British.

These people tend to be somewhat unionist in outlook and are often heard berating Irish freedom fighters from all generations and making excuses for Britains behavior.

They hate republicans and have been known to make laws censoring them. They look down on displays of Irish nationalism yet they will fawn and brown-nose to an embaressing degree if they meet a royal.

Often they would not look out of place in the DUP or the Brit conservative party. Quite a few of them in FG over the years. Lots in the media.

good post wolf tone but i think FG get an unfair rap on this one , maybe its different in dublin but where i live , FG voters are no more unionist and anti irish unity than anyone else , if you dont like FF populism and are not a socilist , like me , you find yourself voting FG , that doesnt make you a queen lizzy fawning monarchist

irishh_bob

Denerick wrote: »

Eoghan Harris probably has bipolar disorder or something. He's unhinged. The late O'Brien though... He was a true intellectual, lets give the man some credit. He pissed off the right sort's of people, the kind of folk who like to think Ireland was once a rural idyll with comely maidens dancing round the village green.

agree about conor cruise having a great mind but he still made excuses for unionist prejudice all day long while vilifying republicans for daring to shout enough

spot on about eoghan harris , doesnt matter what hes talking about , it all comes back to him at the end of the day , he is the story

FloatingVoter

I alway assumed a West Brit was someone from Hawaii. My dumb luck.

Steodonn

I hate the GAA and the Irish language. I watch football ( but I support and Irish team with Man Utd as a second team ). I used to play rugby and still watch it. I also like British food better than Irish food

but

I love the wolftones and siting down the pub singing ra song I think Ireland should be reunited and hate the queen with a passion

Am I a west brit ?

Enkidu

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Not that I'm skeptical, but what are the sources for this statement? Or at least, in what sense did "cultural nationalists like Yeats" invent traditional Irish culture?

Corsendonk

ardmacha wrote: »

Anyone with a positive preference for British food must have some political axe to grind. Anyone picking another nation's food would pick Italian, or French or almost anything.

I am partial to the odd Pork Pie:pac:

Alopex

Well this thread shows it is now a meaningless term.

I always thought it was someone who is from the ROI, or 26 county state, or Ireland (I've been pulled up on the term ROI before, anyway you know what I mean) who isn't bothered about a united Ireland, and looks at things in less straight forward terms than the 1918 election winners being the legitimate government of Ireland.

In Northern Ireland they get called Castle-Catholics. Its effectively the same thing, basically someone who by republican interpretations, *should* be a republican, but isn't bothered, as well as disagreeing with IRA tactics

mike65

ardmacha wrote: »

Anyone with a positive preference for British food must have some political axe to grind. Anyone picking another nation's food would pick Italian, or French or almost anything.

Well that's pure snobbery/ignorance, watch the Hairy Bikers or Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. They'll show you what's possible with some base ingredients.

Pork pie...mmmmm.

caseyann

Steodonn wrote: »

I hate the GAA and the Irish language. I watch football ( but I support and Irish team with Man Utd as a second team ). I used to play rugby and still watch it. I also like British food better than Irish food

but

I love the wolftones and siting down the pub singing ra song I think Ireland should be reunited and hate the queen with a passion

Am I a west brit ?

That would be a no lol

How can you hate GAA? Not into it ok understandable.And hate Irish language? How can anyone hate it.Dislike or unable to learn it so therefore not interested in it understandable.But hate is a bit loud a protest.

Are they still allowed sing RA songs in the pub? :eek:

dashboard_hula

Alopex wrote: »

basically someone who by republican interpretations, *should* be a republican, but isn't bothered, as well as disagreeing with IRA tactics

^^^That's a better explanation of "West Brit" than I was going to give. Mine would have had more swearing.

It's like there's this trend of revisionism going on which is a nasty by product of Irish patriotism that puts blinkers over anything in our history where the British may possibly have not been quite as evil as our history books portray them. Or any notion of giving a British person/event institution credit where it's due. Or any situation where the fault lay within Irish circles.

Martin McGuinness was never going to get my support anyway, but that is because I don't like his party, his past or his policies. But proclaiming that too loudly in certain places (like my local. Or the Politics forum.), or going into details as to why will invariably draw down the claim of West Brit on my head.
It is a stupid, offensive, out of date and unwanted term and at this point it should be treated with the same zero tolerance policy as any other cultural insult. At least on Boards anyway.

TheUsual

Steodonn wrote: »

I blah blah blah ..... really want people to notice me over the millions of Irish people living here ... but I can't really make people see the difference

Good luck to you, you need a girlfriend.

Steodonn wrote: »

Am I a west brit ?

See when a someone important says that ... we listen and debate.
With you ... meh.

niallers1

From wiki

West Brit, an abbreviation of West British, is a pejorative term for an Irish person, usually from South Dublin, who is perceived by his or her countrymen as being too anglophilic in matters of culture or politics

I think this description is the most accurate..

"Sir" Tony O' Reily being a good example.. Doesn't like to be referred to as plain old Tony.

Snickers Man

Dudess wrote: »

I have no time for Eoghan Harris, Conor Cruise O'Brien types, but still... "west Brit" just seems to me a very juvenile and thick-sounding term.
.

It is. The nearest equivalent, albeit in a different context is "ni**er lover", someone deemed to be unacceptably tolerant of another ethnic grouping that it is encumbent among all ordinary decent members of one's own tribe to despise.

Mind you, Mr McGuinness can't get elected in his home town of Derry so he doesn't even run there. He represents Mid Ulster, where his pet goldfish could get elected if he stuck an SF rosette on him.

Must be a lot of West Brits in the Bogside and Creggan.

wee truck big driver

Snickers Man wrote: »

It is. The nearest equivalent, albeit in a different context is "ni**er lover", someone deemed to be unacceptably tolerant of another ethnic grouping that it is encumbent among all ordinary decent members of one's own tribe to despise.

Mind you, Mr McGuinness can't get elected in his home town of Derry so he doesn't even run there. He represents Mid Ulster, where his pet goldfish could get elected if he stuck an SF rosette on him.

Must be a lot of West Brits in the Bogside and Creggan.

there is a big difference between being tolerant of another nation and having a deep desire to imitate that othe nation at the expense of your own rich culture and heritage

K-9

Tends to be a slur thrown at people by "Nationalists" who define themselves more by what they are against, rather than what they are for. A patriot is proud of their culture and country but can appreciate and understand others, the more extreme Nationalists just hate other countries more, hence terms like West Brit.