Correlation between increasing intelligence and atheism

MagicMarker

Freddie59 wrote: »

Hello again D. from post number 5:

Considering religion tends to take advantage of the uneducated and the ignorant


Discuss......

Can you see the difference between the following statements?

''religion tends to take advantage of the uneducated and the ignorant''

''religious people are uneducated and ignorant''

If you can't see the difference, then there's no hope for you.

Dudess

Freddie59 wrote: »

Hello again D. from post number 5:

Considering religion tends to take advantage of the uneducated and the ignorant


Discuss......

Meh, one person said it - doesn't mean all atheists agree.

AudreyHepburn

How many more times must we have this argument? How long before people realise that judging people's intelligence on what they believe or don't believe is pointless and ridiculous?

There are smart theists and not so smart theists, smart atheists and not so smart atheists.

Why can't we all just live and let live? Why this need to separate ourselves into cliques and assert our superiority over those believe differently?

Irish Guitarist

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Again no. Again typing ability is not a reflection of ignorance. It is a reflection on ones typing ability. No more. No less. Also if you really think that is limited to atheists and theists are
some how superior typist then you really are engaged in fantasy.

I'm not talking about typing ability. I'm talking about the ability to spell basic words. I never said it was limited to anyone or that theists were better typists. My point was that if you're going to claim to be of superior intelligence to millions of other people you should at least have a grasp of basic spelling.

Now I am truly confused. They know nothing about history... and you deduce this because the things they say about history are actually 100% accurate? Odd.

I deduce this because they say that the Pope was a member of the Nazi Youth as if he had any choice in the matter. Every other German boy was forced into the Nazi Youth just like he was because it was required by German law at the time. You could pick any other German male the same age as the Pope and say the same thing about him. The people that bang on about the Pope being a member of the Nazi Youth have no interest in reading about why he was a member of the Nazi Youth and would rather stay ignorant so they can have one more thing to feel superior about. Almost every thread I read about atheism has someone saying this. When this is coupled with poor spelling it does come across as ignorant.

You mean the ones you are imagining in your head then? As I am aware of few, if any, that go around making such claims. In fact the position of most, if not all, atheists I have seen on these forums would be closer to what I wrote in post #91 above in response to dilbert2.

I'm not imagining anything in my head (where else would I imagine something by the way?). Every few days there's a thread about how religious people are stupid.

I am sure if you search hard enough, accounting of course for which users are clearly trolls, I am sure you will find 1, 2 or maybe even 5 if you are lucky, people who fit the straw man you are trying to build. I
hardly feel that is representative however. It seems more likely you are trying to engage in random ad hominem and will latch on to anything... even a spelling mistake... if it will confirm your bias.

I don't have any bias. I couldn't care less about other peoples religion or lack of it. I stated I wasn't talking about all atheists. I'm talking about the ones that constantly harp on on forums that they're more intelligent than religious people. And there are plenty of them. And I'm not 'latching onto' anything. I'm not the one that feels the need to start threads about how I'm more intelligent than someone of another belief system.

af_thefragile

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm just curious as to what arguments you've heard that have convinced you there is a god. Surely you'd be more than willing to share such convincing arguments?

I don't have time for that. If you're that curious why don't you read up on some philosophers yourself. I'm not here to debate or argue my point. Just stating why I believe atheism has nothing to do with intelligence of a person or at least the idea of being an atheist makes you more intelligent than others is truly rubbish. From what I've seen, it only seems to makes people more arrogant.

I'm not a preacher and neither do I wish to preach to anyone here.

Musefan

Havn't had time to read all of this thread so sorry if this is already covered! It might be of interest to examine the concept of what makes us intelligent and what is intelligence before we necessarily examine how intelligent we are. It has been said that there are potentially so many definitions of intelligence that essentially it means nothing. Not sure if I totally agree with that statement but when you examine intelligence outside of the range of I.Q testing which typically measures convergent thinking, there is scope for some other aspects of intelligence. It has been proposed that what differs in those who are spiritual, is that they have increased activity in the temporal lobe of the brain. This has come from studies on temporal lobe epilepsy which typically can induce intense religious visions in those who suffer from it, in both deeply religious and atheist subjects. It is proposed that "spiritual intelligence" is therefore a evolutionary adaptation (ironic...) as in the past it helped one integrate themselves in society with ritualistic behaviours etc. I recommend the documentary "God on the Brain" by the BBC horizons series & some of the work by Ramachandran on temporal lobe epileptics and their responses to religious stimuli.

I think it is an interesting concept that essentially those who are religious vs non-religious differ not in levels of "intelligence" but simply in types. But I would be a bit uneasy about some of the research and priming effects of knowing that the experiment was investigating religiosity....

But an interesting thread nonetheless

MagicMarker

af_thefragile wrote: »

I don't have time for that. If you're that curious why don't you read up on some philosophers yourself. I'm not here to debate or argue my point. Just stating why I believe atheism has nothing to do with intelligence of a person or at least the idea of being an atheist makes you more intelligent than others is truly rubbish. From what I've seen, it only seems to makes people more arrogant.

I'm not a preacher and neither do I wish to preach to anyone here.

I'm not asking you to preach, at least point me in the direction of these arguments. I've heard a lot of arguments in favour of god and none have been even remotely convincing. Maybe I've missed yours?

k.p.h

I will take a look MF.

Ted "Hey I shagged Beyonce on the moon last night"
John "Oh really thats awesome"

John = Dumb/Gullible

af_thefragile

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm not asking you to preach, at least point me in the direction of these arguments. I've heard a lot of arguments in favour of god and none have been even remotely convincing. Maybe I've missed yours?

In that case you'll probably find mine just unconvincing as well.
To me it just makes more sense to believe in a higher power which set this incredibly elaborate and complex system that we call the universe in motion. There's no reason why God could be the driving force for evolution rather than random chances of nature. After all "nature" is just another word scientists use for God.

Again as I stated its not a scientific but a philosophical debate. You can substitute pretty much every natural and physical process with the words "because God made it to happen in such way" and the processes will still be valid. In a scientific way those words might sound very naive but can have a lot of implications in philosophical discourse.

I see God as the grand designer and engineer of the universe we live in. There's even a structure to chaos. Everything works in exactly the way its supposed to.

Yes you can leave out God from the whole argument and believe in a perpetual universe or a system of multiple universes in a perpetual existence which has for some reason that science will never be able to describe, always existed and always will. Or believe there is a perpetual higher power which again science can never describe, that sets everything in motion. To me this makes more sense and everything fits better in my understanding. Also religion gives purpose and meaning to those aspects of life which science leaves aside and will never be able to fully describe. I cannot believe in a nihilist philosophy because ultimately it is self destructive.

As you see, this is not a scientific debate but rather a philosophical one.


And if you really want to know why I believe in God rather than just following scientific analysis, its because I wager. And its not a blind wager, I believe the odds of following religious teaching and living accordingly and ultimately gaining from it is much better than rejecting the concept of God without having a full knowledge of the reality of life.

Also I find morality and meaning in religion and I find atheists to be mostly very arrogant with their believes. Becoming an atheist will not make me any happier or will not make my life any better so why should I?

I don't question why you believe what you believe neither do I want you to conform to my believes hence I don't expect anyone to want me to conform to theirs. I'll follow what makes sense to me, you don't know me and you have no right to judge me intellect.

MagicMarker

af_thefragile wrote: »

In that case you'll probably find mine just unconvincing as well.
To me it just makes more sense to believe in a higher power which set this incredibly elaborate and complex system that we call the universe in motion. There's no reason why God could be the driving force for evolution rather than random chances of nature. After all "nature" is just another word scientists use for God.

Again as I stated its not a scientific but a philosophical debate. You can substitute pretty much every natural and physical process with the words "because God made it to happen in such way" and the processes will still be valid. In a scientific way those words might sound very naive but can have a lot of implications in philosophical discourse.

I see God as the grand designer and engineer of the universe we live in. There's even a structure to chaos. Everything works in exactly the way its supposed to.

Yes you can leave out God from the whole argument and believe in a perpetual universe or a system of multiple universes in a perpetual existence which has for some reason that science will never be able to describe, always existed and always will. Or believe there is a perpetual higher power which again science can never describe, that sets everything in motion. To me this makes more sense and everything fits better in my understanding. Also religion gives purpose and meaning to those aspects of life which science leaves aside and will never be able to fully describe. I cannot believe in a nihilist philosophy because ultimately it is self destructive.

As you see, this is not a scientific debate but rather a philosophical one.


And if you really want to know why I believe in God rather than just following scientific analysis, its because I wager. And its not a blind wager, I believe the odds of following religious teaching and living accordingly and ultimately gaining from it is much better than rejecting the concept of God without having a full knowledge of the reality of life.

Also I find morality and meaning in religion and I find atheists to be mostly very arrogant with their believes. Becoming an atheist will not make me any happier or will not make my life any better so why should I?

I don't question why you believe what you believe neither do I want you to conform to my believes hence I don't expect anyone to want me to conform to theirs. I'll follow what makes sense to me, you don't know me and you have no right to judge me intellect.

Okay, well you haven't really provided an argument for the existence of a deity other than ''well it just makes more sense to me''.

At least you're honest though, you believe because if you don't and you're wrong, you'll burn in hell.

LH Pathe

More intelligent?! no.. More pretentious? Yes. look at me, aren't I great, I was born into this world well ahead of the dark ages. just remember far as societal standards go we peaked about a century ago and have been declining back toward the dark ages

denying religion only in the wake of the scandals has only accelerated that trend. deny religion, fine but only if you didn't require the ten commandments of moral guidance in the first place

orourkeda

Hopefully someone intelligent will confirm the existence or non existence of god so we can stop having to talk about it.

af_thefragile

MagicMarker wrote: »

Okay, well you haven't really provided an argument for the existence of a deity other than ''well it just makes more sense to me''.

At least you're honest though, you believe because if you don't and you're wrong, you'll burn in hell.

As I said, its a personal belief. I see things in a different way from you do.
To me life in general makes more sense when seen from the religious/theological viewpoint. Everything fits better and completes the picture for me. There are still holes but its mostly due to my own lack of knowledge and it does little to distort the picture for me. A watch without a watchmaker doesn't make sense to me.

I can't live in a Godless nihilistic world cuz then everything would instantly lose meaning and I'ld rather wish a giant meteorite hit the planet and destroy everything cuz our existence is rather pointless anyway and there is way too much fighting, killing and general ugliness in this world to justify the reason for our existence. Extreme it may be but both science and history has proven the world would be better off without us humans.

But I don't live in a Godless nihilist world and I do believe there is an ultimate meaning, reason and purpose to everything we do and the way the world is. Its not instantly apparent to us because our intellects are mostly not capable of seeing "things as they truly are" and hence we can never fully decipher and comprehend the grand design of all events that take place and how each one of us fits perfectly in it. And just because we can not fully comprehend it doesn't mean there is no design. If there is anything such as an afterlife, there is a fine balance to existence. It completes the meaning and reason to our existence. It completes the cycle of ebb and flow to reach the perfect synchronous balance.

Many scientists even say we humans have evolved to believe in a God or at least in a higher being because that way it gives our highly unpredictable lives on this planet, the certainty we need to live in peace. That we are not just random pointless, product of chance, entities floating around pointlessly through the endless ocean of space and time. Instead our reality and life has a meaning and purpose which makes us responsible for ourselves, others and the world we live in. Scientists say its just nature's way of protecting our species. A theologian might say its God's way of protecting ourselves and what's around us.



So finally for me:

1. Believing in God and religion makes my life a lot more meaningful and purposeful.

2. A Godless nihilist world is inherently pointless as are our actions ultimately, in which at the end of it all we're just pointless beings floating pointlessly through the infinite universe and we'ld be better off by self destructing and ending our suffering.

3. We are inherently (call it by evolution) programmed to believe in God or a higer power or religion or a meaning and purpose to our life. The question of "who am I?" and "what is the purpose/meaning of life?" is a universal question that humans have been asking since they emerged on this planet.

4. That's 3 reasons already why I believe in God. Finally if you don't wager on the existence of God and you're wrong by even the minutest of percentage, you're going to end up in a pretty bad place and no one would like to end up in a bad place. Like Socrates said before being executed, loosely paraphrased, "If I'm wrong and there is nothing after death then its like a sleep without any dreams which is the most comfortable of sleep. But if I'm right then I'll be rewarded in the next life while you will end up in a bad place" (or something along those lines, sorry don't remember the exact quote, might check it later and correct it though I most probably wont, anyway the accuracy of my quoting abilities here don't matter). And hence its much better odds to live your life according to religious teachings than rejecting all and doing what you will.



So that's it. Now I'm off to get some lunch and need to wake up early for college tomorrow.

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote: »

God by definition is above and beyond the physical realm of the universe and hence is beyond the reach and capabilities of science.

Does and can your god manifest itself in the physical universe? If so, it is within the realm of science. If not, it cannot affect us and is therefore irrelevant.

af_thefragile wrote:

I can't live in a Godless nihilistic world cuz then everything would instantly lose meaning and I'ld rather wish a giant meteorite hit the planet and destroy everything cuz our existence is rather pointless anyway and there is way too much fighting, killing and general ugliness in this world to justify the reason for our existence.

There is nothing nihilistic about being an atheist. I live for the things I enjoy and the experience of life itself. You are extremely lucky to exist and you should cherish it. If anything, religion cheapens life by teaching that not only are you the (sometimes unwilling) subject of an eternal, celestial dictator, but that your time in this universe is just a test to get into the next one.

af_thefragile

Deleted User wrote: »

Does and can your god manifest itself in the physical universe? If so, it is within the realm of science. If not, it cannot affect us and is therefore irrelevant.



There is nothing nihilistic about being an atheist. I live for the things I enjoy and the experience of life itself. You are extremely lucky to exist and you should cherish it. If anything, religion cheapens life by teaching that not only are you the (sometimes unwilling) subject of an eternal, celestial dictator, but that your time in this universe is just a test to get into the next one.

Different ways of seeing things I believe...

Can God manifest itself in the physical universe? Well if you think about it that God created the universe and he can do as he wills then he probably could. Does he need to? is a different question. Science is only what we make of our observation of the universe. If we see anything we don't understand or it doesn't correlate with science, then science tries to find an explanation for the said phenomenon until it manages to explain it in whatever way it necessitates. That's the nature of since.

So hypothetically if God even manifested in the physical universe, science would seek a "logical" and "scientific" reason for it until it finds some explanation for it.

But theologically speaking God has an inherent system and design in the universe, he sees everything all the time. He knows the past, present and future and time is a property of God itself* or time as we know it has no relevance for God because time is a property we've given to this universe and as God is beyond the universe, time doesn't relate to him. So there is an inherent design in the universe and a system by with it functions which is not disrupted unless he wishes to do so which he can cuz by definition he holds power over everything but he has no reason to do so.


Speaking about being lucky to exist, say that to the suffering child in Africa. In my view religion enhances life by teaching humans about the fundamental morals of life and how to live in a harmonious way. Its humans who exploit religion, not the other way around.

You have been given the freedom of choice. You can chose to not believe in God if you intend to, which you do. Hence you aren't being willingly or unwillingly forced to submit onto anything. God doesn't owe anything to humans or anyone/anything for that matter. Truth and reality in the form of religion has been laid down in front of you with all of the consequences of the directions you chose to take. After that its completely upto you to live your life how you want to as you may very well know.

MagicMarker

af_thefragile wrote: »

So finally for me:

1. Believing in God and religion makes my life a lot more meaningful and purposeful.

That's unfortunate, do you think that's a sign of a healthy mind when someone needs religion to have any meaning to their life?

af_thefragile wrote: »

2. A Godless nihilist world is inherently pointless as are our actions ultimately, in which at the end of it all we're just pointless beings floating pointlessly through the infinite universe and we'ld be better off by self destructing and ending our suffering.

Again, that's an extremely worrying point of view. If you discovered tomorrow that god does not exist would you just kill yourself?

af_thefragile wrote: »

3. We are inherently (call it by evolution) programmed to believe in God or a higer power or religion or a meaning and purpose to our life. The question of "who am I?" and "what is the purpose/meaning of life?" is a universal question that humans have been asking since they emerged on this planet.

We are predisposed to supernatural thoughts, does that mean ghosts are real? Does that mean astrology is real? Are tarot cards always accurate? Do mediums speak with the dead?

Even if there was a supernatural force behind the creation of the universe, what makes you think that it was made specifically for you? Maybe, just maybe, all the religions are man made, there is no after life, there are no divinely inspired morals standards that need to adhered to. Maybe God is a nihilist, and we are his play thing? Wouldn't that explain all the pain and suffering in the world? Why would any god stand by and let that all happen? That doesn't sound like any god I want to worship.

af_thefragile wrote: »

4. That's 3 reasons already why I believe in God. Finally if you don't wager on the existence of God and you're wrong by even the minutest of percentage, you're going to end up in a pretty bad place and no one would like to end up in a bad place. Like Socrates said before being executed, loosely paraphrased, "If I'm wrong and there is nothing after death then its like a sleep without any dreams which is the most comfortable of sleep. But if I'm right then I'll be rewarded in the next life while you will end up in a bad place" (or something along those lines, sorry don't remember the exact quote, might check it later and correct it though I most probably wont, anyway the accuracy of my quoting abilities here don't matter). And hence its much better odds to live your life according to religious teachings than rejecting all and doing what you will.

I'd rather live the life that I have the way I want, rather than live according to some archaic rule book, just in case.

I'm curious though, what makes you think your god is the right one? There's plenty to choose from, meaning the odds aren't in your favour. As well as this, exactly how strictly do you follow your religion?

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote:

Can God manifest itself in the physical universe? Well if you think about it that God created the universe and he can do as he wills then he probably could. Does he need to? is a different question. Science is only what we make of our observation of the universe. If we see anything we don't understand or it doesn't correlate with science, then science tries to find an explanation for the said phenomenon until it manages to explain it in whatever way it necessitates. That's the nature of since.

So hypothetically if God even manifested in the physical universe, science would seek a "logical" and "scientific" reason for it until it finds some explanation for it.

But theologically speaking God has an inherent system and design in the universe, he sees everything all the time. He knows the past, present and future and time is a property of God itself* or time as we know it has no relevance for God because time is a property we've given to this universe and as God is beyond the universe, time doesn't relate to him. So there is an inherent design in the universe and a system by with it functions which is not disrupted unless he wishes to do so which he can cuz by definition he holds power over everything but he has no reason to do so.

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would have sufficed. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that your god does not manifest itself in the universe. As such, it is indistinguishable from a god which does not exist; it does not affect us in any way, so how are we to know of or care about its existence?

af_thefragile wrote:

Speaking about being lucky to exist, say that to the suffering child in Africa. In my view religion enhances life by teaching humans about the fundamental morals of life and how to live in a harmonious way.

When the Catholic Church and religious pro-lifers condemn contraception in Africa, despite the potential it would have to alleviate poverty and AIDS, it makes me sick to my stomach. I do not worship any god and I cannot understand how anyone could one which would allow the almost perpetual cycle of death and suffering experienced in destitute countries. If that's the morality of religion, I could do without it. I'm more interested in saving people than their imaginary souls.

af_thefragile wrote:

You have been given the freedom of choice. You can chose to not believe in God if you intend to, which you do. Hence you aren't being willingly or unwillingly forced to submit onto anything.

There is no freedom of choice, according to your religion. There are threats (Hell) and there are bribes (Heaven).

The concept is also at odds with the claim of omniscience.

af_thefragile wrote:

Truth and reality in the form of religion has been laid down in front of you with all of the consequences of the directions you chose to take.

Religion does not deal in truth or reality, it deals in faith. We have one consistently reliable method for separating fact from fantasy: science.

Believing something because you want it to be true does not make it so. The writings of savage desert people from the Bronze Age do not contain any kind of secret, divine wisdom from on high; there is no reason to consider them anything the desperate attempts to explain the universe, which is typical of almost every civilisation which has ever existed on the planet.

Kidchameleon

Can I ask any of the Atheists here, do you believe in an afterlife? I'm not talking about God, Jesus or any supernatural being, just plain and simple, afterlife yay or nay.

af_thefragile

different ways of seeing things...

Min

There is a correlation between being Atheist and feeling more intelligent than someone who is not Atheist.

Knasher

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Can I ask any of the Atheists here, do you believe in an afterlife? I'm not talking about God, Jesus or any supernatural being, just plain and simple, afterlife yay or nay.

Generally and personally no, but atheism is very specifically a position on deities, so there are atheists out there who do believe in an afterlife.

Knasher

af_thefragile wrote: »

I cannot believe in a nihilist philosophy because ultimately it is self destructive.

Your view of atheism as a nihilist philosophy has a lot more to do with your view of the world than anything else. Ultimately if you describe you religious views as the source of meaning and purpose in your life, then it isn't surprising you view the atheist as a nihilist.

Most atheists aren't nihilist, and it would serve you well to consider viewpoints other than your own before making sweeping generalisations.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Finally if you don't wager on the existence of God and you're wrong by even the minutest of percentage, you're going to end up in a pretty bad place and no one would like to end up in a bad place. Like Socrates said before being executed, loosely paraphrased, "If I'm wrong and there is nothing after death then its like a sleep without any dreams which is the most comfortable of sleep. But if I'm right then I'll be rewarded in the next life while you will end up in a bad place" (or something along those lines, sorry don't remember the exact quote, might check it later and correct it though I most probably wont, anyway the accuracy of my quoting abilities here don't matter). And hence its much better odds to live your life according to religious teachings than rejecting all and doing what you will.

Unless you wagered on the wrong religion of course.

nozzferrahhtoo

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I'm not talking about typing ability. I'm talking about the ability to spell basic words.

Again however the misspelling of basic words on an internet forum stems as much from ones typing ability as it does from the ability to spell. It would be an error to conflate the two. For example I more often than not type believe as "beleive". I know full well how to spell the word, but due to a quirk in my typing I almost always get it wrong.

However instead of dealing with the content of peoples posts you choose instead to focus on the spelling it. Ad Hominem, or playing the player and not the ball, helps no one... except the person who wants to avoid dealing with what people have actually been saying.

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I deduce this because they say that the Pope was a member of the Nazi Youth as if he had any choice in the matter.

Irrelevant. He was a member. This is a historical fact. So saying he was a member is historically accurate. Having a tantrum when people point out this entirely accurate fact helps nothing. What would help things is if the man himself, given he has attained a position as a moral leader for a large group of people, would speak out about that time, repudiate it, express his regret that it ever happened and the part he played in it (willing or otherwise) and spoke about the reasons such things came to pass and how we can avoid it again in the future.

How often has he taken the opportunity to do so?

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Every few days there's a thread about how religious people are stupid.

Only because you are conflating erroneously (and possibly purposely) people giving examples OF stupid religious people are people arguing that all religious people are stupid. I have quite an impressively large number of examples myself, many of which I have posted about also, but that is not the same as me saying all religious people are stupid... no matter how much you want to paint it as if it is.

I can also list without even trying 20 black people who were criminals. Doing so would not be me arguing that black people are therefore criminals. To suggest I was would be lunacy, stupidity or... worse... a deliberately dishonest attempt at straw man erecting.

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I'm talking about the ones that constantly harp on on forums that they're more intelligent than religious people. And there are plenty of them.

People in thinking they are smarter than other people shocker! I can see the headlines now.

This has nothing to do with atheism. You just want it to. Wanting it will not make it true though. The fact is that sub groups of people from any group will act like they think they are better than people outside that group. Get used to it, it is a fact of human nature. Trying to make it sound like it has anything to do with atheism at all is just desperate bias masturbation. There is nothing in atheism to cause or fuel such a thing. Of course the same can not be said of the religious given they start out thinking that they have god on their side.

Cú Giobach

af_thefragile wrote: »

4. That's 3 reasons already why I believe in God. Finally if you don't wager on the existence of God and you're wrong by even the minutest of percentage, you're going to end up in a pretty bad place and no one would like to end up in a bad place.

If there is an entity out there who would inflict such punishments on the beings he/it created then he/it is not worthy of worship and would actually be (by human standards) considered evil, I will not under the threat of punishment bow down and worship any being I consider evil.

Maybe people who bow down and worship an entity who would be this evil are actually failing a test and the people who refuse are passing one.

nozzferrahhtoo

af_thefragile wrote: »

To me life in general makes more sense when seen from the religious/theological viewpoint. Everything fits better and completes the picture for me.

Just because a belief system is easier for you, this does not lend an ounce of credence to the idea that that system is actually correct in any way. Quite often things that are false seem patently obvious, and things that are true seem patently ridiculous. So thinking something is true solely because it makes more sense to you is fallacious.

af_thefragile wrote: »

A watch without a watchmaker doesn't make sense to me.

That is because you are making a circular argument. A watch has an intended purpose. The purpose can be shown in isolation. The designer can be shown in isolation.

With the idea of god however you have to assume there is a god to show a purpose to the creation. You have to assume a purpose in order to show there is a god. It is a circular argument and hence fallacious.

af_thefragile wrote: »

I can't live in a Godless nihilistic world cuz then everything would instantly lose meaning

Similar to the fact that something being easier for you to comprehend is no reflection on how true it is, believing something because it suits you better emotionally also has no reflection on how true it is. There either is a god or there is not. There is either evidence that there is a god or there is not. The fact the existence of a god would make you personally feel better is wholly irrelevant and is again fallacious.

So in short it appears you have no reason to think there is a god other than it is easier for you to think so, and it makes you feel better to think so.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Many scientists even say we humans have evolved to believe in a God

Not really. The position of most evolutionary scientists in my experience is that we have evolved a number of traits, each with good reason, which when working together have the side effect of causing us to be susceptible to belief in a god.

It is similar, for example, to the fact that we have evolved many useful things which, when working together, have left us susceptible to catching diseases. It would be inaccurate to suggest "We have evolved to catch diseases". It would be more accurate to say "We have evolved to do a lot of useful things, but as a byproduct of this we now also catch diseases".

af_thefragile wrote: »

anyway the accuracy of my quoting abilities here don't matter

No worries. Assuming it is Pascals Wager to which you refer... most people know exactly what you mean, and most people know exactly why it has time and time again been shown to be a poor argument on every level.

nozzferrahhtoo

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Can I ask any of the Atheists here, do you believe in an afterlife? I'm not talking about God, Jesus or any supernatural being, just plain and simple, afterlife yay or nay.

Not so far no. I have never been shown a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasons to think such a thing exists. Ever.

coffee_cake

"I believe in god because if i didn't i'd kill myself" or the usual "i believe in god and if i didn't i'd kill everyone else" are never convincing arguments, people.
"I am mentally unsound" is not a good start to a post. Just a tip...

Freddie59

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you see the difference between the following statements?

''religion tends to take advantage of the uneducated and the ignorant''

''religious people are uneducated and ignorant''

If you can't see the difference, then there's no hope for you.

It's called splitting hairs my friend. And an extremely snide way of doing so.:rolleyes: Allowing the person using it to point the 'you're thick because you're religious' finger while keeping their arms folded.

It's evident right across these fora on any religious thread. Always lurking.

No hope for ME? Glass houses, stones, etc.:p:D

Freddie59

af_thefragile wrote: »

I know intelligent people who believe in God,
I know dumb people who believe in God.

I know intelligent people who don't believe in God.
I know dumb people who don't believe in God.


One may think far more dumb people believe in God than intelligent people. Well, it depends on what scale you're using to measure intelligence. Not all intelligence is an IQ test score. Also most people in the world believe in God hence why you'll find more of each type of people believing in God.

One may think its mostly the intelligent people who don't believe in God. Well, again it depends on how you measure intelligence. Unfortunately most people think they're intelligent and their actions and believes are a result of their sole intelligence, while in reality they're quite wrong. They're blindly following the word as much as the other.


Bottom line is intelligence is subjective. Some people are good at maths while others are good at music. If you get a mathematician with no knowledge of music theory to sit an A level music exam, he'll very likely fail and similarly if you get a musician who hasn't studied much of higher maths, sit an A level maths exam, he'll quite likely fail as well. That doesn't make either a dumb person just because they're not good at something. Similarly some people have read a lot of literature and are very good at language while others haven't read much literature but have an excellent ability to use their imagination and create fantastic artworks. Doesn't make one more intelligent than the other.

Hence intelligence is subjective and therefore can't be taken as a benchmark towards the validation of such arguments.


Religion is the result of how a person interprets his reality. Some can see the reason in a higher being setting the cogs in motion of this incredible system we can never fully comprehend. Other see the systems to be self sufficient and in perpetual motion. Still doesn't make one's reason more valid than the others. It's all just theories and you follow what you see the light in.

One of the best posts in a long, long time. And a very tolerant one at that. All sides could take lessons from it. Well done.

Freddie59

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Not so far no. I have never been shown a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasons to think such a thing exists. Ever.

Hedging the old bets there.........:)