Trimble or Earls Against Italy

AtItAllDayRef

bamboozle wrote: »

he has started very few games since the '07 WC.

He has played about 25 games since then starting about 15.

phog

Comparing both of them in their respective provinces.

Trimble has played 119 matches and scored 36 tries
Earls has played 59 matches and scored 20 tries.

chippers

Earls

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/worldcup/2011/0926/rwc_ireland_trimblea.html

tolosenc

Earls

I stopped reading that article when it said drop Kearney so that Earls and Trimble can play. Trimble, Bowe, Kearney is our best back 3, and one of the best in the tournament. Simple as, really.

premierstone

footie_fanatic wrote: »

my shout is for trimble, as i know earls is established in the team but he's not enuf of a threat, like with Bowe you know he will score if given half a chance, and earls just doesnt, I see Trimble as deserving a chance to see if he will threat more ( which i think he will)

Keith Earls has a better strike rate than Trimble for both club and country he is most certainly a threat with ball in hand.

Earls has gotten alot of bad press I feel and alot of it stemed from him being shifted from the wing to FB to 12, he needs to be left in one position, the wing imo, and allowed to focus on that otherwise he will become a jack of all trades master of none.

Amazotheamazing

tolosenc wrote: »

I stopped reading that article when it said drop Kearney so that Earls and Trimble can play. Trimble, Bowe, Kearney is our best back 3, and one of the best in the tournament. Simple as, really.

Where's the out and out pace in that back three though, or back five really. If we start Trimble, d'Arcy, BOD, Bowe and Kearney we're also picking one of the slowest sets of backs of any of the major teams. Neither Trimble or Bowe have Earls' top end speed and Kearney and the centres are relatively slow.

I like Trimble, but he offers nothing that Bowe doesn't already offer Ireland, Earls brings a different aspect.

davegrohl48

We haven't had all out pace since Denis Hickies early days.
Earls is faster over 20 yards but his advantage diminishes once the bigger men get into their stride. Earls is more agile and has a better stepping ability and that is as you'd expect.
Bowe has enough pace to score tries and runs good lines.
Earls has a pretty impressive strike rate for Munster going on that previous post.

Podge_irl

Earls

Trimble is NOT slow by any measure. I still think he's as quick as Earls. He was apparently the fastest member of the 07 squad, ahead of Hickie.

Besides, Earls' pace can be a hindrance at times. He tries to beat his man on the outside too often instead of coming inside. He's constantly trying to do too much imo.

AtItAllDayRef

Podge_irl wrote: »

Trimble is NOT slow by any measure. I still think he's as quick as Earls. He was apparently the fastest member of the 07 squad, ahead of Hickie.

Besides, Earls' pace can be a hindrance at times. He tries to beat his man on the outside too often instead of coming inside. He's constantly trying to do too much imo.

I thought David Wallace was the quickest of the 2007 squad over 30 metres?

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Trimble is NOT slow by any measure. I still think he's as quick as Earls. He was apparently the fastest member of the 07 squad, ahead of Hickie.

Besides, Earls' pace can be a hindrance at times. He tries to beat his man on the outside too often instead of coming inside. He's constantly trying to do too much imo.

I don't know what actual splits are - but my impression is that Earls has the fastest acceleration, Bowe and Trimble would win out in the penetration stakes.

In terms of ball handling - the order prior to this Autumn would have been Bowe, Earls and then Trimble with the first two offering a lot in terms of offloads and dispensing the ball at the breakdown. Earls has been poor at times since the warm ups, but the Aus and Russian games seem to have demonstrated an improvement in this regards.

davegrohl48

Trimbles biggest weakness is his catching and kicking Suprised it hasn't improved Maybe hasn't been seen as needing attention? Kearney is able catch and move on probably better than any other back in tournament Gains him time on the opposition defense

premierstone

Deleted User wrote: »

Bowe and Trimble would win out in the penetration stakes.

Keep it clean now

GerM

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of ball handling - the order prior to this Autumn would have been Bowe, Earls and then Trimble with the first two offering a lot in terms of offloads and dispensing the ball at the breakdown. Earls has been poor at times since the warm ups, but the Aus and Russian games seem to have demonstrated an improvement in this regards.

I wouldn't have Earls ahead of anyone, except McFadden, in terms of handling. Both of them have poor levels of distribution for international rugby. Trimble, whilst he will never be Paddy Wallace in terms of sleight of hand, is a fairly comfortable passer these days. He threw a very nice pass to create Kearney's try, one which the other two wouldn't have. Earls fumbled once or twice yesterday and his distribution has always been mediocre which is why he's so much more suited to the wing. He had an opportunity early on yesterday with two players outside him near the wing where he just needed to draw the defender and release them but opted to take it on himself. It's great when he breaks the line like he did for the second try and it works brilliantly as he has strong acceleration but decent defences won't let him do that. I'd love to see what Schmidt could do with Earls in terms of his skills and handling.

MungBean

Earls

Why has Trimble not been considered for centre cover ? He's intelligent, physical, capable of breaking the line and isnt too selfish to offload when on a break. I brought this up during the warm ups and was told he played there before and wasnt great, that he didnt pass well.

I havent seen any evidence of poor passing and seeing as people want Earls left on the wing maybe he'll get a run in the centre after the world cup and become Drico's replacement. Cant see Earls lasting long at centre if thats what Kidney has planned for him. He's wing slot will get filled and he wont impress and eventually disappear.

bleg

Why not both Trimble and Earls. I think Trimble is more similar to Bowe than Earls, they're all around the same level at the moment anyway so any 2 out of the 3 is grand... great situation to be in.

davegrohl48

Would love to see Trimble at centre We've always been very conservative. though in trying things like that out Think we are missing a dynamic ball carrier there That would nearly make up for any weakness in passing which should be less now that he is a seasoned pro

GerM

I think Trimble is too rigid for centre. He has an average passing game, not bad, not particularly good. He is a hard direct runner but I don't think he asks enough questions of the defence from there and is defended against fairly easily. I wouldn't mind using him when stuck but he's much better on the wing where, on occasion, he can be used as a strike runner in midfield. It worked a treat in 2006 when he powered in for a try against South Africa.

CatFromHue

Trimble used to play centre and then moved to wing where he is doing really well. Far better than when he was a centre.

Piliger

Earls for me.

LostPassword

Trimble is fast but doesn't have the quickest feet, so can easily get caught flat-footed - hence his move from centre to wing.

phog

GerM wrote: »

I wouldn't have Earls ahead of anyone, except McFadden, in terms of handling. Both of them have poor levels of distribution for international rugby. Trimble, whilst he will never be Paddy Wallace in terms of sleight of hand, is a fairly comfortable passer these days. He threw a very nice pass to create Kearney's try, one which the other two wouldn't have. Earls fumbled once or twice yesterday and his distribution has always been mediocre which is why he's so much more suited to the wing. He had an opportunity early on yesterday with two players outside him near the wing where he just needed to draw the defender and release them but opted to take it on himself. It's great when he breaks the line like he did for the second try and it works brilliantly as he has strong acceleration but decent defences won't let him do that. I'd love to see what Schmidt could do with Earls in terms of his skills and handling.[/QUOTE]

Dont want to drag this was off topic but if what you say is correct then why hasnt Schmidt developed McFadden's skills?

bandit14

Piliger wrote: »

Earls for me.

+1

bandit14

Earls is due a big one,its on the way!

GerM

phog wrote: »

Dont want to drag this was off topic but if what you say is correct then why hasnt Schmidt developed McFadden's skills?

He has. McFadden's hands were very poor a year ago for a professional centre. At this stage they're a lot better but not good enough for an international. There was a game away in Cardiff the season before last when he made a clean break after collecting an offload in midfield. He was one on one with a defender coming towards him at the 22 with Conway steaming up outside him for a simple run in. I recall him holding the ball and looking towards Conway. I think he put his boot to it, made a mess of it and the chance died. He had no confidence in his passing. By the end of this season, his hands had improved vastly. He threw a skip pass off his left for Horgan's try against Ulster which he wouldn't have attempted a year before.

Earls made an almost identical break against Leinster in 2009 with Howlett screaming up outside him and tried to go himself when there was never a hope. A half decent pass would have put Howlett in and the whole game would have changed. A proper skills coach with Earls would round out his attacking game massively. Currently, he is an out and out scorer but he could be a genuinely fantastic player if he added another dimension to his game.

jacothelad

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

He has played about 25 games since then starting about 15.

Since the '07 RWC according to the IRFU website and up to the warm-up games Trimble has started 7 games for Ireland. In his career spanning 7 years he has started 30 games and scored 9 tries. Not brilliant but not tragic.
Comparing his scoring at provincial level with that of Earls is a trifle disingenuous. Earls has been playing for one of the very best sides in Europe, has played 59 games and scored 20 tries. One try every 3 games just about. Trimble has been playing for one of the poorest Ulster sides in history. He has played 116 games for them and scored 36 tries. One try in every 3 games just about. I wonder which team makes it easier / more likely for wingers to score tries. Is it the double European champions, losing finalists, losing semi-finalists and ML champions or Ulster who have finished near the bottom of the table in most of the last 6 years? Mmm. In the words of Mr. Venter, "I'll have to think deeply about that. Yes. Very deeply."

GerM

Three cheers for Andrew Trimble. Very good. Very good.

AtItAllDayRef

jacothelad wrote: »

Since the '07 RWC according to the IRFU website and up to the warm-up games Trimble has started 7 games for Ireland. In his career spanning 7 years he has started 30 games and scored 9 tries. Not brilliant but not tragic.
Comparing his scoring at provincial level with that of Earls is a trifle disingenuous. Earls has been playing for one of the very best sides in Europe, has played 59 games and scored 20 tries. One try every 3 games just about. Trimble has been playing for one of the poorest Ulster sides in history. He has played 116 games for them and scored 36 tries. One try in every 3 games just about. I wonder which team makes it easier / more likely for wingers to score tries. Is it the double European champions, losing finalists, losing semi-finalists and ML champions or Ulster who have finished near the bottom of the table in most of the last 6 years? Mmm. In the words of Mr. Venter, "I'll have to think deeply about that. Yes. Very deeply."

Since the last RWC

5 starts playing the full 80 minutes in all games of the 2008 six nations.
1 start in the 2010 Six Nations versus Italy (subbed after 56 minutes)
2 starts and played the full 80 minutes in both Summer tour games in 2010.
2 starts and played the full 80 minutes in two Autumn Series games in 2010.
1 start and played 80 minutes in the 2011 Six Nations.
4 starts in the World Cup warm up games in 2011.

Thats 11 starts prior to the August Friendlies and 15 including the warm up games.

Not sure where you got 7 starts from.

MungBean

Earls

Fionn Carr probably has a better scoring rate than the two of them together despite playing for one of the poorest sides in Europe.

Doesnt matter a shíte.

jacothelad

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

Since the last RWC

5 starts playing the full 80 minutes in all games of the 2008 six nations.
1 start in the 2010 Six Nations versus Italy (subbed after 56 minutes)
2 starts and played the full 80 minutes in both Summer tour games in 2010.
2 starts and played the full 80 minutes in two Autumn Series games in 2010.
1 start and played 80 minutes in the 2011 Six Nations.
4 starts in the World Cup warm up games in 2011.

Thats 11 starts prior to the August Friendlies and 15 including the warm up games.

Not sure where you got 7 starts from.

Ooooooops.Missed the '08 Six N's games.

GerM

jacothelad wrote: »

Ooooooops.Missed the '08 Six N's games.

Meh. Not to worry, so did the squad.

JRant

Earls

Earls for one reason only, don't change the team that beat Australia.

This is one time I'm praying for Kidney to be "conservative", god help me!

ALH-06

Earls

GerM wrote: »

Currently, he is an out and out scorer but he could be a genuinely fantastic player if he added another dimension to his game.

He doesn't have many dimensions to his game though. Good pace & acceleration and an eye for the gap. And a good finisher, granted. But there are massive questions marks over his passing, tackling and overall game awareness. Plus, usually there are far too many mistakes for this level.

I seem to be the only one here who thinks that Earls is massively overrated. Just think of all the missed tackles / errors. And then think of us up against South Africa, France or NZ....

Anyway I'd go for Trimble 100%, shouldn't be left out on current form alone.

premierstone

ALH-06 wrote: »

Anyway I'd go for Trimble 100%, shouldn't be left out on current form alone.

I agree but surely the more obvious solution is to put Triomble on the other wing and move Bowe into the centre in place of Darcy, it seems Earls is a bit like marmite people either love him or hate him, out of the 5 backs that are currently in possesion of the jersey's he is the only one been considered under threat by Trimbles excellent form.

CiaranMT

Why not put in both? Leave Earls at 13, BOD to 12, Trimble to 11.

You got your form winger, your talisman, and possibly your best line-breaker (in the backs) all on the pitch.

I'd love to see this considered, with ROG, Murray, Bowe and Murphy at 15.

CiaranMT

premierstone wrote: »

I agree but surely the more obvious solution is to put Triomble on the other wing and move Bowe into the centre in place of Darcy, it seems Earls is a bit like marmite people either love him or hate him, out of the 5 backs that are currently in possesion of the jersey's he is the only one been considered under threat by Trimbles excellent form.

Because Earls has been at 11 for the vast majority of the games he's played, which is also Trimble's position...?

Podge_irl

Earls

CiaranMT wrote: »

Why not put in both? Leave Earls at 13, BOD to 12, Trimble to 11.

You got your form winger, your talisman, and possibly your best line-breaker (in the backs) all on the pitch.

I'd love to see this considered, with ROG, Murray, Bowe and Murphy at 15.

That would actually be the most porous backline of all time. Earls isn't a 13 and at this stage I'm not sure he ever will be.

ALH-06

Earls

Podge_irl wrote: »

That would actually be the most porous backline of all time. Earls isn't a 13 and at this stage I'm not sure he ever will be.

Agreed. Why would you persist with Earls at 13 if he can't pass or tackle?

CiaranMT

Podge_irl wrote: »

That would actually be the most porous backline of all time. Earls isn't a 13 and at this stage I'm not sure he ever will be.

We're playing Italy here, not the ABs. My focus was on attack more than defence. Both players are doing well, Trimble especially so, and D'Arcy certainly doesn't offer the same in attack any more.

JustinDee

ALH-06 wrote: »

Agreed. Why would you persist with Earls at 13 if he can't pass or tackle?

He can pass/offload and can tackle.
See previous two games as examples.

Third_Echelon

Earls to start at 11 for me.... It's a tough call though. Bring on Trimble with 15/20 mins to go for a fresh attacking option. He brings a lot of pace and enthusiasm. Could get us a much needed try late in the game....

jacothelad

premierstone wrote: »

I agree but surely the more obvious solution is to put Triomble on the other wing and move Bowe into the centre in place of Darcy, it seems Earls is a bit like marmite people either love him or hate him, out of the 5 backs that are currently in possesion of the jersey's he is the only one been considered under threat by Trimbles excellent form.

1) I doubt if Bowe has ever played 12 in his pro career.
2)It is not a position in which any player can simply walk in and do it. Remember Shaggy at 12nder EOS. Great player, tragic centre.
3)I've seen Bowe play 13 for the Os a lot and he is no great shakes I have to say. he is however a very good winger so that is where he should play.
4)Earls is a very good player but he isn't the be all and end all of current Irish wingers.
5) Trimble can play either wing and does so often for Ulster. It doesn't matter to him as he can't kick equally as well on the left or the right.:D

CiaranMT wrote: »

Why not put in both? Leave Earls at 13, BOD to 12, Trimble to 11.

You got your form winger, your talisman, and possibly your best line-breaker (in the backs) all on the pitch.


I'd love to see this considered, with ROG, Murray, Bowe and Murphy at 15.

Earls is a dreadful 13 at this level. While I'd be in favour of ROG why Murphy and why Murray? I have to say that Murphy is dead slow these days and his defence is no better than it was when it was minging. As for the mad rush to beatify Murray, I think he is no more than adequate and lacks the experience.

CiaranMT wrote: »

Because Earls has been at 11 for the vast majority of the games he's played, which is also Trimble's position...?

As above. Trimble plays 11 and 14 equally well.

ALH-06 wrote: »

Agreed. Why would you persist with Earls at 13 if he can't pass or tackle?

Hear, hear.

JustinDee wrote: »

He can pass/offload and can tackle.
See previous two games as examples.

He can but has made more than a few blunders in defence and his passing can be erratic in the last few seasons - but then so can BOD's. One thing in Earls' favour is the fact that he has a few more facets to his game than Trimble. Perhaps he will develop into a more versatile player, something Trimble will not.

ALH-06

Earls

JustinDee wrote: »

He can pass/offload and can tackle.
See previous two games as examples.

When I say 'he can't tackle', I'm not insinuating that he isn't capable of making a single tackle. It's meant more in a ROG-like sense in that he misses way too many.

And there were several nice offloads against Russia, but I would completely disagree that he has the passing capabilities of an international-class 13.

efb

Earls

Trimble is the better winger

phog

ALH-06 wrote: »

When I say 'he can't tackle', I'm not insinuating that he isn't capable of making a single tackle. It's meant more in a ROG-like sense in that he misses way too many.

And there were several nice offloads against Russia, but I would completely disagree that he has the passing capabilities of an international-class 13.

How many mis-tackles has he in the W/C pool games?

ALH-06

Earls

phog wrote: »

How many mis-tackles has he in the W/C pool games?

You mean against the likes of Russia and the USA, who love to spread it wide?

phog

I mean the W/C pool games - here are the stats from Scrum.com

Brian O'Driscoll - - 3
Eoin Reddan - - 2
Tommy Bowe - - 1
Jamie Heaslip - - 1
Shane Jennings - - 1
Rob Kearney - - 1
Fergus McFadden - - 1
Conor Murray - - 1
Sean O'Brien - - 1
Andrew Trimble - - 1

Podge_irl

Earls

Earls' tackling isn't really suspect, it's his positioning. Exactly the opposite of ROG really.

ALH-06

Earls

phog wrote: »

I mean the W/C pool games - here are the stats from Scrum.com

Brian O'Driscoll - - 3
Eoin Reddan - - 2
Tommy Bowe - - 1
Jamie Heaslip - - 1
Shane Jennings - - 1
Rob Kearney - - 1
Fergus McFadden - - 1
Conor Murray - - 1
Sean O'Brien - - 1
Andrew Trimble - - 1

What do these stats tell us? That Earls is a better defender than the above? That he is an adequate 13 at this level?

I've seen him miss too many tackles in matches I've seen him play in. That's it. If you want examples, look no further than the disgraceful effort against Tuilagi against England. International-class 13s can't miss those. They just can't.

As for Trimble, above, I can't remember him missing a tackle?

irishbucsfan

Earls

Earls' positioning and judgement is a little suspect, perhaps. However on the wing he has improved immensely as a defender. He went from being the one of the weakest defenders in the Irish squad in 2010 (I remember against France they ran all over him) to being very very good this year. I think it was a confidence thing, as he was a bit more aggressive with his footwork and trusted his form and solidity more. He was smashing people at times (by his standards).

I'm not worried about his defending on the wing at all, but it takes a large amount of experience to defend well at 13. Which is worrying because the only player we have with that experience is BOD.

Trimble/Earls is very very close. Earls didn't deserve to start against the USA based on his form leading into the game, but he has played well and I think he deserves to retain the jersey based on that.

GerM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Earls' tackling isn't really suspect, it's his positioning. Exactly the opposite of ROG really.

It is really. His technique is fairly dodgy in one on one situations. I think it was Malzieu two years ago that walked right through him in the HEC and Sackey this year in an identical situation. He has a habit of going high on players in one on one situations. Luckily, it's quite rare to see any Irish player isolated in such a manner due to our defensive organisation and scramble defence.