Photography Law.

jamesdublin12 · 27-09-2011 8:24pm #1

Hey all,
Anyone know where I can find photography law.... I was taking photos on a main road through a business park, and the park security approached me to tell me I couldnt take photos.... I was just using a landmark feature there as a backdrop to take photos..
I said to them its a public place, I can take the photos if I want.. they told me they call garda i need permission to take a photo there.... (but this wasnt in where the buildings are.. this was on the main dublin city council road that runs through/along entrance to the where the business premises are.... So Im a bit confused as to why I was harassed..... can anyone help me with more info. I have some info.. from what I checked out, I was within the law taking photos there... some security jsut with nasty head on him.. thats all.

Paulw · 27-09-2011 8:34pm

If you're on private property then they can stop you taking photos.

A prime example of this is IFSC land, which is privately owned.

But, normally you just need to seek permission from the land manager, since security guards are normally just power-tripping.

jamesdublin12 · 27-09-2011 8:36pm

but how do I knwo if this is private or not... I thought once is what a public place i.e footpath, areas where people can go through... even nightclubs and pubs are public places... and so the law covers that u can take photos in them cos they are a public place... unless otherwise specified through notices etc.

Paulw · 27-09-2011 8:38pm

jamesdublin12 wrote: »

even nightclubs and pubs are public places... and so the law covers that u can take photos in them cos they are a public place... unless otherwise specified through notices etc.

No, you are incorrect there. A nightclub or pub is not a public place. It's a private establishment and they have the right to set rules for entry, such as no photography.

Notices are not required.

AnCatDubh · 27-09-2011 8:46pm

AFAIK, on a public road and you should be in the clear.

But business parks (private ones) may not have roads which technically are 'taken in charge' by the Council ie. in the public ownership and being maintained by the council - in which case, security can ask you to move along.

Its very similar to the IFSC - security will chase you off with a camera if you enter. We had fun one evening with a bunch of photographers with tripods, multiple cameras at the ready (but in full knowledge that we couldn't take photographs), sauntered in and just passed through. We of course were challenged by security and had to explain that technically we weren't actually taking photographs on their roadway and would it be ok to walk through. They were confused the poor souls. In the case of the IFSC, the roads are technically not in public ownership and the security are within their rights to hassle you. In fairness I think there is a lot of residential apartments etc. in there so their grievances at photographers aren't without foundation.

I've seen something similar at a rural shopping centre where a link road between two public roads isn't in the public ownership (in the ownership of the shopping centre management company) and security will chase you off. Stand out on the public road and you are then technically within your rights. The link road has all the appearences of being a public road but technically it isn't.

You can easily establish the ownership of the road way by enquiring with the council for the area which you were in.

samhail · 27-09-2011 9:03pm

Caban posted this link up on the outof focus chat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJH9F7Hcluo
interesting video

jamesdublin12 · 27-09-2011 10:07pm

well they told us in college.. that a pub is a public place.. so u can take photos in there freely.

jamesdublin12 · 27-09-2011 10:07pm

put it this way. ive been hired to take photos of events in pubs by people hosting them... if thee was issue around it.. the pubs wud say.

jamesdublin12 · 27-09-2011 10:09pm

samhail wrote: »

Caban posted this link up on the outof focus chat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJH9F7Hcluo
interesting video

Saw this earlier today when checkig it out.. makes me thing..public place ok.

Ballyman · 27-09-2011 10:10pm

Pub is actually short for Public House!!

jamesdublin12 · 27-09-2011 10:18pm

Ballyman wrote: »

Pub is actually short for Public House!!

I know what it stands for.. but a place open to the public is a public place.

sineadw · 27-09-2011 10:24pm

jamesdublin12 wrote: »

Ballyman wrote: »

Pub is actually short for Public House!!

I know what it stands for.. but a place open to the public is a public place.

Eh, fraid not. A pub is a private place, which allows access to the public. That's why they can reserve the right, etc.. most pubs don't have an issue with images (i've never come across one that has), but they *could* have if they wanted to.

jamesdublin12 · 27-09-2011 10:50pm

ok. I suppose that makes more sense.
So if a person is in a public place.. they cannot really do anyhting about themselves being in a photo (apart from maybe a civil issue)...

But in a pub they can be there without being photographed.... Or tell u off for taking their photo.

sineadw · 27-09-2011 11:02pm

jamesdublin12 wrote: »

ok. I suppose that makes more sense.
So if a person is in a public place.. they cannot really do anyhting about themselves being in a photo (apart from maybe a civil issue)...

But in a pub they can be there without being photographed.... Or tell u off for taking their photo.

Yep, pretty much. Apart from the civil issue thing. You wouldn't have any redress at all, unless your privacy was being unduly impinged (images of you on the toilet say - you don't even have to be in a public place, just the photographer - so they can take photos of you in a building from a public path..), or if the image was used as part of an ad.

In the pub, it's not so much up to the individuals to stop you taking a photograph as the owners. But they can complain, and you can be asked to stop.

T. McLean Photography · 28-09-2011 12:55am

Yes it's true most of the business parks are private so you can not take pics without permission also St. Green, Ivy Garden ect. But you can take pics of place and any person (over 18) once you are stood in a public place (road, foot path ect.). I've been working as a press and pr photographer for about 10 years now, so I've come across this a lot and a lot of the cops aren't even sure of these laws.

Hogzy · 28-09-2011 10:49am

jamesdublin12 wrote: »

I know what it stands for.. but a place open to the public is a public place.

A public house is not open to the public per se. You are only given a license to enter for the purpose of drinking/socialising/pub activities etc. Once you take a photo your license can be revoked because your entry as a visitor has changed to that of a trespasser.

smash · 28-09-2011 12:09pm

AnCatDubh wrote: »

In the case of the IFSC, the roads are technically not in public ownership and the security are within their rights to hassle you.

What if you're standing on the Luas tracks, they don't own the Luas...

Hogzy · 28-09-2011 12:15pm

smash wrote: »

What if you're standing on the Luas tracks, they don't own the Luas...

Neither do you. :rolleyes:

smash · 28-09-2011 12:27pm

Hogzy wrote: »

Neither do you. :rolleyes:

I was being sarcastic.

Hogzy · 28-09-2011 12:58pm

smash wrote: »

I was being sarcastic.

I was being a cnut.

melekalikimaka · 28-09-2011 1:38pm

its about where you are whn you take the photo not what your taking a photo of, try look up the definition of privacy, thqats where the fun begins... Made for an interesting essay in college... its a sham of a word when talking bout rights

Paulw · 28-09-2011 2:03pm

T. McLean Photography wrote: »

But you can take pics of place and any person (over 18) once you are stood in a public place (road, foot path ect.).

I've never seen any distinction in law in relation to photography which separates those under 18 from those over 18.

Of course, in relation to privacy, the Data Protection Commissioner also has an input, such as in this case - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0826/breaking2.html

AnCatDubh · 28-09-2011 2:17pm

smash wrote: »

What if you're standing on the Luas tracks, they don't own the Luas...

Sarcasm aside, Yes, stand on a piece of public infrastructure and point your camera where ever you wish, with 600mm lens attached and 'they' can't touch you for it - view of the courts on privacy of the scenario excepted.

However, the LUAS tracks, platforms, and train yokes that speed about the place are actually not public property afaik and you will be chased off them by their security guards. But I guess the chance of them being there for the moment you are on a track maybe slim - thus, the IFSC security couldn't move you on and the LUAS security aren't around. At best, technically, one could call the other. Then again, being on a track with your attention on something other than getting yourself off that track given that you are in the path of the tram may not be the best of ideas and possibly having you guilty of tresspassing (not sure of the law there but wouldn't be terribly surprised). All in all, it wouldn't be recommended.

Slightly dated but a 2009 Article from Cian Ginty which appeared in the Irish Times. Covers many popular scenarios.

Hogzy · 28-09-2011 2:33pm

AnCatDubh wrote: »

At best, technically, one could call the other. Then again, being on a track with your attention on something other than getting yourself off that track given that you are in the path of the tram may not be the best of ideas and possibly having you guilty of tresspassing (not sure of the law there but wouldn't be terribly surprised).

Yes it would be "recreational user" trespassing. Just because property is owned by a state/semi state body does not mean the average Joe is allowed to enter that property and do what he wants on it. Remember all rights are subject to public order and the common good. Just because you have a right to do X does not mean you can use that right to breach the right of Y.

PCPhoto · 28-09-2011 5:15pm

sineadw wrote: »

Yep, pretty much. Apart from the civil issue thing. You wouldn't have any redress at all, unless your privacy was being unduly impinged (images of you on the toilet say - you don't even have to be in a public place, just the photographer - so they can take photos of you in a building from a public path..), or if the image was used as part of an ad.

In the pub, it's not so much up to the individuals to stop you taking a photograph as the owners. But they can complain, and you can be asked to stop.

will address that part below

T. McLean Photography wrote: »

Yes it's true most of the business parks are private so you can not take pics without permission also St. Green, Ivy Garden ect. But you can take pics of place and any person (over 18) once you are stood in a public place (road, foot path ect.). I've been working as a press and pr photographer for about 10 years now, so I've come across this a lot and a lot of the cops aren't even sure of these laws.

Tony/Sinead you forgot to put in the ould chestnut of reasonable expectation of privacy !! just to confuse people a little more !!

if the person has a reasonable expectation of privacy then the image will be deemed to have been illegally obtained (ie. if a person is in their home and you hop up on a ladder to see in through their window and take pics of them walking around - the image is deemed to be illegal on the basis that the person has reasonable expectation of privacy and the image would be an invasion of privacy laws.

jamesdublin12 wrote: »

well they told us in college.. that a pub is a public place.. so u can take photos in there freely.

As for this comment .... I think you should ask your teacher/lecturer to explain in simple english and even give it to you in writing how photography is allowed in pubs....if they say "because its a public place" then ask why cant you take pictures in other public places ...such as a library, restaurant, shop, nightclub ?

A pub is a private establishment - someone somewhere owns the pub which makes it a private place with a licence to sell drink etc to the public, the reason why MOST pubs will allow you to take photos is because they see it as possible advertising - if someone from the pub asks you to stop photographing .... then stop !

Also you made a comment about the pub not stopping you from photographing "events" in the pub, this is probably because they see it as exposure for them, its not bad publicity if people are photographed having a few drinks, if however there was a mass brawl in the pub and you were there photographing it they'd probably try get you chucked out asap.

in general photography of people in public is allowed - as long as the person taking the image is on public property and the person being photographed is not inside a building without an expectation of being photographed....there is always exceptions to the rule (like most laws in Ireland there's always a loophole - its how the rich avoid prosecution)

sineadw · 28-09-2011 5:21pm

That's why i put in the bit about the toilet PC

reasonable expectation of privacy.

sineadw · 28-09-2011 5:23pm

And just to muddy the waters EVEN further, you don't *have* to be on private land to expect privacy, and there has been age-based judgement. Ask JK Rowling..

digitalbeginner · 29-09-2011 12:38am

This might help clarify the law on what is and what is not a public place: http://www.digitalrights.ie/2006/05/09/photographers-rights/

liamo · 29-09-2011 10:14pm

Regarding photography in business parks ....

My work colleague and I are pretty new to photography but very enthusiastic. We work in a Business Park and have gone out and about with camera and tripod at lunchtime and after work.

Recently my colleague was approached by a security guard when he was taking photos of one of the fountains after work and asked (in a polite and courteous manner) to stop.

I wrote an email the next day to the park manager asking him about this practice. He phoned me back and went to great lengths to explain that he was not at all against park employees taking photos of the many sculptures and fountains in the park and actively encouraged me to continue. His problem was one of public liability where non park employees might get injured during their photo activities.

This seemed to me to be a reasonable enough explanation and may go some way to explaining the stance that others might take on the subject.

ozymandius · 30-09-2011 11:08pm

What about taking photos on, say, the DART or LUAS. That's private property, so I suppose strictly it's a no-no.

Also seeking to clarify a couple of points above - is there an age issue with taking photos in public spaces?

Paulw · 01-10-2011 12:50pm

ozymandius wrote: »

What about taking photos on, say, the DART or LUAS. That's private property, so I suppose strictly it's a no-no.

Also seeking to clarify a couple of points above - is there an age issue with taking photos in public spaces?

There are by-laws for the LUAS and DART which cover taking photos.

No, there is no age issue with photos in a public place, aside from Cork and their public parks/play areas.

PCPhoto · 02-10-2011 9:40pm

Paulw wrote: »

There are by-laws for the LUAS and DART which cover taking photos.

No, there is no age issue with photos in a public place, aside from Cork and their public parks/play areas.

and the fact that (depending on the severity of the charge) .... anyone under 18 will be dealt with in the Childrens Court which is not seen as a proper criminal conviction.....hopefully I'm explaining it properly.

EyeBlinks · 02-10-2011 9:57pm

Paulw wrote: »

There are by-laws for the LUAS and DART which cover taking photos.

No, there is no age issue with photos in a public place, aside from Cork and their public parks/play areas.

Kerry were there long before Cork btw

mehfesto · 03-10-2011 11:03am

smash wrote: »

What if you're standing on the Luas tracks, they don't own the Luas...

They'll beg to differ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um28fguQRY

[EDIT: Can't seem to get link to work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Um28fguQRY]
Check 2:40 onwards

Anyway, I've a question about the Phoenix park.
What are the legalities of me taking pictures for a band there? It's an unpaid job - technically uncommercial, but I will be carrying around softboes and the like, thus 'looking' professional.

Any ideas?

Paulw · 03-10-2011 11:07am

mehfesto wrote: »

Anyway, I've a question about the Phoenix park.
What are the legalities of me taking pictures for a band there? It's an unpaid job - technically uncommercial, but I will be carrying around softboes and the like, thus 'looking' professional.

Just contact the OPW, and request permission. Normally, it's just a formality and just a matter of following the process.

Photography Law.

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