The Official After Hours Presidential Election Thread **POLL RESET 23/10**

Einhard

owainglyndwr wrote: »

A Leopard does not change its spots so should we expect anything less ? I would sue the editor !

Hmmm, a leopard can't change his spots, but apparently MMG can...

Whether Martin McGuinness lives in Derry or Timbuktu if he is a strong leader and is truly able to reconcile the past then would it be fair to say he IS a worthy candidate ?

If Martin McGuinness was black, there would be a Red Carpet laid out for him and the questions would not include his IRA past but if he has Irish relatives somewhere near Moneygall

Martin McGuinness has earned the right to be President of Ireland.

owainglyndwr

andyjo wrote: »

only by comparing the provos to anti semetics. Not a unreasonable comparison when you look back at what happened over their campaign. Strong words "....Someone who can stare down McGuinness, list his concrete crimes, and tell him coldly that since his IRA wasted 3,000 lives he is not fit for purpose as President of Ireland."

If you look at all the lives affected by the McGuinnesses provo campaign, it was a lot more than 3000. How many injured, how orphans, widows, how many careers and lives destroyed - even though they may not have been murdered.

"3000" ?? Where did you get that figure from ? 1.525 Catholics and 1.250 Protestants were Killed and 691 were killed outside of Ireland.. If the Paras didn't go on a murder spree on Bloody Sunday and the people were not being abused then maybe War might never have broke out in the first place ... The IRA did NOT start that War !

Bannasidhe

Oh the irony - am I the only one highly amused today to see people who were fully prepared to accept Lucy Helen Burke's word as a journalist, even though she could not produce one shred of verifiable evidence, now dismiss Eoghan Harris' because he has an 'agenda' and also complain about the standard of the articles printed in the Indo? :rolleyes:

So - are we NOW agreeing that:

a) Journalists may have an agenda and present information in such as way as to 'prove' what they want it to 'prove'.
b) Newspapers may, on occasion, print articles which are biased, deliberately provocative, fail to reach the burden of proof and might, possibly, be so factually incorrect as to constitute defamation.

Well, well. Ain't that a turn-up for the books....

Biggins

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh the irony - am I the only one highly amused today to see people who were fully prepared to accept Lucy Helen Burke's word as a journalist, even though she could not produce one shred of verifiable evidence, now dismiss Eoghan Harris' because he has an 'agenda' and also complain about the standard of the articles printed in the Indo? :rolleyes:

So - are we NOW agreeing that:

a) Journalists may have an agenda and present information in such as way as to 'prove' what they want it to 'prove'.
b) Newspaper may, on occasion, print articles which are biased, deliberately provocative, fail to reach the burden of proof and might, possibly, be so factually incorrect as to constitute defamation.

Well, well. Ain't that a turn-up for the books....

Only speaking for myself but I take the precaution of treating every rag (or not) paper with suspicion till the evidence is clearly produced to counter any doubts.
To do otherwise is to start behaving like dumb docile sheep, then to be allowed herded in a particular direction!

Wompa1

owainglyndwr wrote: »

andyjo wrote: »

Sometimes the mask slips of those in Sinn Fein. Whats underneath is not usually pretty. I suppose what else would you expect from those who condoned murder, "disappearances", bombings, intimidation, bank robberies and torture in the not too distant past.

The plot thickens "did the Israelis leak the clemency letters that nearly destroyed David Norris?" (more than likely) and now Harris is stirring the doo doo. I came across this article which shows which side of the fence Harris is on and it makes for interesting reading.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/eoghan-harris/eoghan-harris-government-is-right-about-ivor-wrong-about-israel-2209687.html

Its common knowledge that Israel interferes in the elections of foreign countries and i wonder if someone influenced Harris. Sorry that's conspiracy theory i know but its not implausible.

Does it matter? I'm no fan of Israel on a political standpoint but who gives a crap. Norris wrote the letter. What does it matter who leaked it, the fact is he wrote it.

Bannasidhe

Biggins wrote: »

Only speaking for myself but I take the precaution of treating every rag (or not) paper with suspicion till the evidence is clearly produced to counter any doubts.
To do otherwise is to start behaving like dumb docile sheep, then to be allowed herded in a particular direction!

Oh I know you do Biggins.

But others now complaining were not so critical of journalistic standards a few short weeks ago... It's made my day to see the worm turn.

squod

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh the irony - am I the only one highly amused today to see people who were fully prepared to accept Lucy Helen Burke's word as a journalist, even though she could not produce one shred of verifiable evidence, now dismiss Eoghan Harris' because he has an 'agenda' and also complain about the standard of the articles printed in the Indo? :rolleyes:

So - are we NOW agreeing that:

a) Journalists may have an agenda and present information in such as way as to 'prove' what they want it to 'prove'.
b) Newspapers may, on occasion, print articles which are biased, deliberately provocative, fail to reach the burden of proof and might, possibly, be so factually incorrect as to constitute defamation.

Well, well. Ain't that a turn-up for the books....

People will decide for themselves. I don't see the conspiracy you see. This presidential race is a circus IMO. I'm not surprised it's being treated as such.

Wolfe Tone

Eoghan Harris LOL

That man is a complete idiot.

owainglyndwr

Wompa1 wrote: »

Does it matter? I'm no fan of Israel on a political standpoint but who gives a crap. Norris wrote the letter. What does it matter who leaked it, the fact is he wrote it.

If i was no fan of MMG and i was determined to make him look bad would i phone the Indo and issue a death threat to someone who is writing bad things about him ? If i were that demented i probably would.. Its simple enough .. Phone up and say "Hello I'm a supporter of MMG and that little gob****e who is writing bad things about him deserves to be shot and i think i am the person to do it !" There you go ,,a simple death threat .. Makes great headlines in the Morning .. One question though "Why Harris?"

andyjo

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Eoghan Harris

In a democracy people are entitled to their opinions. Journalists are entitled to theirs. McGuinness and his followers never had and never will have the right to "silence" their opponents because they disagree.

andyjo

owainglyndwr wrote: »

One question though "Why Harris?"

The provo republican movement has a track record of intimidating those whom it disagrees with / its critics. McG was a leader in same for long enough.

Liam Byrne

realies wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Who is ?

Eoghan harris think you missed him

The interview with Aine Lawlor or on the news? I don't think the interview was Harris, and that was on when I switched on RTE1

owainglyndwr

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Eoghan Harris LOL

That man is a complete idiot.

I'm wondering if Harris himself or one of his friends issued a death threat against himself to make MMG and his supporters look bad.. He made the headlines !

Einhard

owainglyndwr wrote: »

I'm wondering if Harris himself or one of his friends issued a death threat against himself to make MMG and his supporters look bad.. He made the headlines !

owain, don't want to put you on the spot, but could you respond to my post above- how come only the leopards that you support can change their spots?

Wolfe Tone

andyjo wrote: »

In a democracy people are entitled to their opinions. Journalists are entitled to theirs. McGuinness and his followers never had and never will have the right to "silence" their opponents because they disagree.

Vincent Browne called someone out on this type of crap the other day. Someone on twitter said something about MMG silencing journalists and VB went on to say that he was a journalist in the north for a good while and wrote quite scathing things about SF/IRA and never had any threats or anything.

Of course people are entitled to their opinions, did I say otherwise? No, I did not.

What is your view on section 31, or Harris's actions in RTE, that is, censorship?

Eoghan Harris has taken to railing against the Irish Independent and RTE for not adopting a sufficiently anti-republican tone to their reports and interviews in the Presidential election campaign to date. Harris lambasts the Irish Independent for making an “extraordinary error of judgement” by allowing “northern nationalist” Martina Devlin to pen an article for the paper (linked by Mick in this post), comparing the historically anti-republican Indo to ‘An Phoblacht.’

Harris then attacks RTE and the Irish Independent for conspiring to produce a ‘moral fog’ around McGuinness, stating that this “confirmed my fears that the Weimar combination of economic recession and political myth-making are creating the conditions for the triumph of a nationalist-socialist movement like Sinn Fein.”

The zealously anti-republican Harris was responsible for the ‘tribal time bomb’ charge against Mary McAleese in 1997, a time when few public figures would have regarded being linked with Sinn Fein in any manner as being advantageous or beneficial to their cause.

Eoghan Harris in meltdown mode.

Even today he calls for censorship. He is a fool, you should take what you wrote, change it slightly and direct it at Eoghan Harris and those like him, it would be a much more valid criticism then.

owainglyndwr

andyjo wrote: »

The provo republican movement has a track record of intimidating those whom it disagrees with / its critics. McG was a leader in same for long enough.

That's the reason i believe the people or person behind the threat has no affiliation with Sinn Fein and does NOT support Martin McGuinness. Anyone could have made that threat. Its all too convenient.

Damon Blake

I've never voted in Ireland before and this'll be my first chance, catching up on this thread to get a view on things.

I moved back here a couple of years ago and I don't remember there being this much debate on previous elections.

My friend wrote up this guide to the election:

http://humourisms.com/2011/10/09/irish-presidential-candidates-and-their-bewildering-campaign-pictures-2/

but I still don't know who anyone is.

I met David Norris at a table quiz and he seemed an affable chap. I did wonder though if Jurassic Park being re-released in the cinema was an election campaign to get people sympathetic to eccentric dreamers.

LordSutch

andyjo wrote: »

In a democracy people are entitled to their opinions. Journalists are entitled to theirs. McGuinness and his followers never had and never will have the right to "silence" their opponents because they disagree.

I agree, the problem seems to be though, that many people are too young to remember the 'silencing' by the PIRA that covered three decades, and which usually resulted in one's disappearance wearing concrete boots (& with a small hole in the forehead), or being exciled for life!

So many people are too young to remember the very nasty campaign that the PIRA waged against anybody who disagreed with them, or who got in their way. Many people only remember the "Peace Process" of which Martin McGuinness was a part . . . . . . . . . . .

"Think Pre-Peace Process", and you will see why there is such antipathy & revulsion towards Mr McGuinness (previously of the PIRA) < these four letters being a filthy slogan right up until the start of this campaign, a filthy four letters that spelt a very dangerous threat to this State, as well as to the North & Britain.

Soo many S Effers now at work on the internet trying despirately to erase any connection between McGuinness and the catalogue of atrocities perpetrated by him & his mates in the Provo's (Post 74'), but thanks to Gay Mitchell, Gay Byrne, and many others, the public have been reminded of old Marty's blood stained past, which mean that he will not be voted in as the President of Ireland, Thank God.

Biggins

andyjo wrote: »

The provo republican movement has a track record of intimidating those whom it disagrees with / its critics. McG was a leader in same for long enough.

As did one Mr Haughty down to one Mr Ahern who told others maybe they should kill themselves.
No one is Snow White in any party.

(Except maybe John Hume - but sadly he's not running)

andyjo

Biggins wrote: »

As did one Mr Haughty down to one Mr Ahern who told others maybe they should kill themselves.

They did not intimidate / murder / disappear people like McGuinnesses provos. Sad you do not realise this.

Happyman42

LordSutch wrote: »

I agree, the problem seems to be though, that many people are too young to remember the 'silencing' by the PIRA that covered three decades, and which usually resulted in one's disappearance wearing concrete boots (& with a small hole in the forehead), or being exciled for life!

So many people are too young to remember the very nasty campaign that the PIRA waged against anybody who disagreed with them, or who got in their way. Many people only remember the "Peace Process" of which Martin McGuinness was a part . . . . . . . . . . .

"Think Pre-Peace Process", and you will see why there is such antipathy & revulsion towards Mr McGuinness (previously of the PIRA) < these four letters being a filthy slogan right up until the start of this campaign, a filthy four letters that spelt a very dangerous threat to this State, as well as to the North & Britain.

Soo many S Effers now at work on the internet trying despirately to erase any connection between McGuinness and the catalogue of atrocities perpetrated by him & his mates in the Provo's (Post 74'), but thanks to Gay Mitchell, Gay Byrne, and many others, the public have been reminded of old Marty's blood stained past, which mean that he will not be voted in as the President of Ireland, Thank God.

What about Mitchell, FG, and the Garda Heavy Gang? Wouldn't you agree that it was a complex time politically...a nasty time but there was faction fighting going on, where various sides did things that they might be embarrassed about today?

andyjo

Happyman42 wrote: »

What about Mitchell, FG, and the Garda Heavy Gang?

What about them ? They did not intimidate / murder / disappear people like McGuinnesses provos. Sad you do not realise this. Too young / badly educated perhaps

Biggins

andyjo wrote: »

They did not intimidate / murder / disappear people like McGuinnesses provos. Sad you do not realise this.

I see a lot. I see also that people are willingly only to look at an early part of one's life and unwilling to look at a later part with a rejection then of the previous.

Not defending McG but lets look at the whole picture, not just the bits opposition just wants - then decide.

owainglyndwr

Einhard wrote: »

owain, don't want to put you on the spot, but could you respond to my post above- how come only the leopards that you support can change their spots?

The Irish Independent is Ireland's answer to the Jerusalem Post and is no friend to leftists when their journalists and social Diarists compare the Provo's to Hamas. The one thing that can truly be said about Irish Republicanism and Palestinians is they understand each other and their History doesn't begin in the past ten years but goes back 75 years. The Indo has single handedly white washed those who were the "Cause" and laid the blame solely on the Militants for wanting "Freedom" .

The groups i support have not changed their spots ,, They have moved forward but the revolutionary will remain within them.. The Indo on the other hands will never change their spots and will continue to write negatively about Leftist leaders who ever they may be and no matter how positive an impact those leftist leaders have had on the path to Peace.

andyjo

Biggins wrote: »

I see also that people are willingly only to look at an early part of one's life and unwilling to look at a later part with a rejection then of the previous.

Being the leader of an organisation which destroyed thousands of lives ....and even yet not condemning that organisation - speaks volumes. He has not "rejected the previous".

Biggins

andyjo wrote: »

Being the leader of an organisation which destroyed thousands of lives ....and even yet not condemning that organisation - speaks volumes. He has not "rejected the previous".

Sorry, there was me thinking he downed his previous possible tactics and reversed his position, changed methods, helping to jointly bring about a more peaceful Northern Ireland.

I must be wrong!

LordSutch

Happyman42 wrote: »

What about Mitchell, FG, and the Garda Heavy Gang? Wouldn't you agree that it was a complex time politically...a nasty time but there was faction fighting going on, where various sides did things that they might be embarrassed about today?

I am not sure what you are getting at there Happyman^ But the reality remains that Martin McGuinness was in the Provisional IRA, then add to this fact, that when atrocities were comitted by him/them, he would refuse to condemn the bombers in the aftermath.

Look back at any of the Bombings or grizly murders comitted by the PIRA, (Start with 'Enniskillen' & work your way down the list), and you will remember (or not) a total absence of condemnation by McGuinness & Adams, for "it was their campaign" that they perpetrated over three decades, and which stopped, when they said it should stop! hence their annoyance at the Real IRA who dare to 'carry on' without permission from Adams & McGuinness who are now "Peacemakers" :rolleyes:

andyjo

If the biggest scumbag mugger / thief/ robber in a city gave up his anti-social activities, I would not elect him mayor of the city.

OK, he may have downed his previous possible tactics and reversed his position, changed methods, helping to bring about a more peaceful city, but I do not worship him, as he created much of the problem over the decades.

Happyman42

andyjo wrote: »

What about them ? They did not intimidate / murder / disappear people like McGuinnesses provos. Sad you do not realise this. Too young / badly educated perhaps

So I only imagined Amnesty International criticising the Gardai and Commissioner Ned Brennan?
Is your head so far down in the sand that you would even attempt to suggest they didn't exist?

owainglyndwr

Einhard wrote: »

owain, don't want to put you on the spot, but could you respond to my post above- how come only the leopards that you support can change their spots?

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90772

I thought i had better expand on my last comment .. The Indo allows Harris and co to perform a Hatchet job on the likes of Martin McGuinness. I think it is disgraceful. People who don't do any research buy into their brand of hatred.