Dog tried to bite me last night

Kashkai

Our rescue collie who we have for just over three weeks now tried to bite me last night as I was putting on his harness to bring him for a walk. Now he has been getting a little "uppity" lately like knocking down my young son and scratching his face with his claws while trying to get my son's biscuit.

Last night I called him over and said "sit" while I attached the harness. He kept jumping about so I put my hand on his back and pushed down while I said sit. This is when he turned and put his teeth into my hand in a not very hard bite. However it was the fact that he bit me that freaked me out. Now I was dubious about getting a dog with young children in the house but the fact that he turned on me, "the big dog in the house" that really got me worried. If he tried it on with me, and got away with it, then what's to stop him biting my children?

Some of you might not like it but I was so angry at this unprovoked bite that I whalloped him and he ran for his kennel and stayed there. I've never had to do this before to any of my other dogs but I'm now having serious doubts about what I thought was a gentle playful dog, but who is now showing a side that I don't like or trust around young children.

Loopylil

I had a similar experience with my 13 week old puppy and was referred by a friend to this article on www.dogstardaily.com I hope it helps you.
regards Lilhttp://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/confused.gif

Bite inhibition is the single most important lesson a dog must learn. Adult dogs have teeth and jaws that can hurt and harm. All animals must learn to inhibit use of their weapons against their own kind, but domestic animals must learn to be gentle with all animals, especially people. Domestic dogs must learn to inhibit their biting toward all animals, especially toward other dogs and people. The narrow time window for developing a "soft mouth" begins to close at four-and-a-half months of age, about the time when the adult canine teeth first show. Providing your puppy with an ideal forum to learn bite inhibition is the most pressing reason to enroll him in puppy classes before he is eighteen weeks old.

Bite inhibition does not mean stopping the puppy from biting altogether. On the contrary, puppies must bite in order to learn bite inhibition. Bite inhibition means, learning to inhibit the force of the bites, so they no longer hurt or cause damage.

Puppies bite — and thank goodness they do. Puppy biting is a normal, natural, and necessary puppy behavior. Puppy play-biting is the means by which dogs develop bite inhibition and a soft mouth. The more your puppy bites and receives appropriate feedback, the safer his jaws will be in adulthood. It is the puppy that does not mouth and bite as a youngster whose adult bites are more likely to cause serious damage.

The puppy's penchant for biting results in numerous play-bites. Although his needle-sharp teeth cause painful bites, his weak jaws seldom cause serious harm. The developing puppy should learn that his bites can hurt long before he develops jaws strong enough to inflict injury. The greater the pup's opportunity to play-bite with people, other dogs, and other animals, the better his bite inhibition will be as an adult. For puppies that do not grow up with the benefit of regular interaction with other dogs and other animals, the responsibility of teaching bite inhibition lies with the owner.

After all the socialization and handling exercises during his first month at home, your puppy will be unlikely to want to bite, because he likes people. However, should your dog snap or bite because he has been frightened or hurt, one hopes that he causes little if any damage because he developed good bite inhibition during puppyhood. While it is difficult to socialize a dog and prepare him for every potentially scary eventuality, it is extremely easy to ensure that as a puppy he develops reliable bite inhibition.

Even when provoked to bite, a dog with well-established bite inhibition seldom breaks the skin. As long as a dog's bite causes little or no damage, behavioral rehabilitation is comparatively easy. But when your dog inflicts deep puncture wounds as an adult, rehabilitation is much more complicated, time-consuming, and potentially dangerous.

Good bite inhibition is the most important quality of any companion dog. Moreover, a dog must develop bite inhibition during puppyhood, before he is four-and-a-half months old.

Human Bite Inhibition?

No dog is perfectly behaved, but luckily, most dogs are pretty well-socialized and have pretty good bite inhibition. Most dogs are basically friendly, even though they may occasionally be fearful and wary of some people some of the time. Also, although many dogs have growled, lunged, snapped, or even nipped someone at some time in their lives, very few dogs have ever inflicted any appreciable damage.

Perhaps a human analogy will help illustrate the crucial importance of bite inhibition. Few people can honestly say that they have never had a disagreement, never had an argument, or never laid a hand on someone in anger (especially when considering siblings, spouses, and children). However, very few people have ever hurt another person so badly that they had to be admitted to the hospital. Thus, most people freely admit that they are sometimes disagreeable, argumentative, and prone to physical violence. Even so, very few people have injured another person. Dogs are no different. Most dogs have several disagreements and arguments each day. Many dogs have been involved in full-contact fights at some time in their lives. But very, very few dogs have ever severely injured another dog or a person. This is the importance of bite inhibition.

Bite Inhibition with Other Dogs

Dogfights offer a wonderful illustration of the effectiveness of solid bite inhibition. When dogs fight, it usually sounds like they are tying to kill each other, and it appears they forcibly bite each other over and over. However, when the dust settles and the dogs are examined, 99 percent of the time there are no puncture wounds whatsoever. Even though the fight was a frenzied flurry of activity and both dogs were extremely worked up, no harm was done because both dogs had exquisitely fine-tuned bite inhibition, acquired during puppyhood. Puppies teach each other bite inhibition when play-fighting, their number one favorite activity.

Unless there are vaccinated adult dogs at home, your puppy must live within a temporary doggy social vacuum and dog-dog socialization must be postponed for a while. Until your puppy has acquired sufficient active immunity, it is too risky to allow him to socialize with dogs of dubious immunization history, or with dogs that have been in contact with the urine and feces of dogs potentially infected with parvovirus and other serious puppy diseases. However, as soon as your puppy has developed sufficient immunity to safely venture outdoors — at three months of age, at the earliest — catching up on dog-dog socialization is urgent. Enroll your puppy in puppy classes right away and take him for walks and to the local dog park several times a day. You will thank yourself for years to come. There is no greater enjoyment than watching your dog-friendly adult dog enjoy playing with other dogs.

Bite inhibition, however, cannot be put on hold. If there are no other dogs at home for your puppy to play with, you have to teach your puppy bite inhibition until he is old enough to go to puppy classes.

Bite Inhibition with People

Even if your puppy has a couple of canine buddies at home, you will still need to teach your puppy to inhibit the force and frequency of his bites toward people. Additionally, you must teach your puppy how to react when frightened or hurt by people. He should by all means yelp, but he should not bite and he should never bear down.

Even if your dog is friendly and mouths gently, by five months of age at the very latest, he must be taught never to touch any person's body or clothing with his jaws unless requested. Whereas mouthing is essential for puppies and acceptable from a young adolescent dog, it would be utterly inappropriate for an older adolescent or adult dog to mouth visitors and strangers. It would be absolutely unacceptable for a six-month-old dog to approach a child and take hold of her arm, no matter how gentle, friendly, and playful the dog's intentions. It would frighten the living daylights out of the child, to say nothing of her parents.

Out-of-Control Play Sessions

Some owners, especially adult males, adolescent males, and boys, quickly let play-mouthing sessions get out of control. This is why many dog-training texts recommend not indulging in games such as play-fighting or tug-of-war. The whole point about playing these games is to improve your control. And if you play these games by the rules, you will soon have excellent control over your puppy's mouthing behavior, vocal output, energy level, and activity. However, if you do not play by the rules, you will soon have an adult dog that is dangerously out-of-control.

I have a simple rule with my dogs: no one is allowed to interact or play with them unless they have demonstrated that they can get them to come, sit, lie down, speak, and shush. This rule applies to everyone, especially family, friends, and visitors, that is, the people most likely to ruin your dog's behavior. For active games, such as tug-of-war and play-fighting, I have an additional rule: No one may play with the dogs unless at any time they can immediately get the dog to stop playing and sit or lie down.

Practice "Off," "Sit," and "Settle Down" many times during your puppy's play sessions, and you will soon have an easily controllable adult dog, one that has learned to listen to you no matter how excited and worked up he may be. Do not play with your pup without frequent interruptions. Have short timeouts at least every fifteen seconds or so to check that you're in control and can easily and quickly get the puppy to let go, calm down, and settle down. The more you practice, the more control you'll have.

Puppies with Soft Mouths

Many gundog breeds, especially Spaniels (and especially the nice Spaniels), have extremely soft mouths as puppies and therefore receive limited feedback that their jaws can hurt. If a puppy does not frequently mouth, bite, and does not occasionally bite hard, this is serious. The puppy must learn his limits, and he can only learn his limits by exceeding them during development and receiving the appropriate feedback. Again, the solution lies with puppy classes and off-leash play sessions with other puppies.

Puppies That Don't Bite

Shy dogs seldom socialize or play with other dogs or strangers. Hence they do not play-bite, nor do they learn to reduce the force of their bites. The classic case history describes a dog that didn't mouth or bite much as a pup and never bit anyone as an adult — until an unfamiliar child tripped and fell on the dog while he was gnawing on a bone. Not only did the dog bite, but his first bite left deep puncture wounds because he had developed no bite inhibition. With shy puppies, socialization is of paramount importance and time is of the essence.

Similarly, some Asian breeds have an extremely high degree of fidelity toward their owners, and, consequently, tend to be fairly standoffish with other dogs or human strangers. Some restrict their mouthing and biting to members of the family, and some simply do not mouth at all. Hence, they never learn to inhibit the force of their jaws.

Non-biting puppies must be socialized immediately. They must commence play-fighting and play-biting well before they are four-and-a-half months old. Initiating play, socialization and learning bite inhibition are all best accomplished by promptly signing up for puppy classes.

Speed of Development

The large working dog breeds develop slowly and, as long as they have not developed problems, may delay starting puppy classes until they are four months old. But they must start classes by four-and-a-half months. Smaller breeds, however, especially cattle dogs, develop much faster, and waiting until they are four months old is too late. Cattle dogs, working sheep dogs, toys, and terriers all need to be enrolled in puppy classes by three-and-a-half months of age.

Of course, regardless of the size and speed of development of your puppy, to get the most out of his formal education, enroll in a class when your puppy is three months old and then enroll in a second puppy class when he is four-and-a-half months old.

tk123

So did he growl and bite or just mouth your hand?! How old is the dog? Pushing him down into a sit is what provoked the reaction from him so while it may not have been an acceptable reaction it was provoked. You only have him 3 weeks so he may not trust you enough yet to let you handle him like that - I know if anyone tried to push my dog down like that he'd growl first and then he would bite if they didn't back off as he can have fear aggression.
Obedience training is a great way to bond with the dog and you'll learn how to work together which is what I think you need - you're possibly expecting too much from him too soon.
Dominance and pack leader stuff is old school these days and not highly regarded - positive reinforcement is the way to go. Eg get him to sit, give him a treat, put on the harness give him a treat, teach him not to jump up, teach him to leave your son's biscuit alone etc etc - you can teach him all of this without having to make him afraid of you.

Toulouse

I'd really suggest you take your dog to a good training class/behaviouralist as the way you handled both the incident with your son and also last nights events shows that you're pretty out of your depth here.

No doubt your dog didn't have the best of lives up to now but you can't expect to solve all that in just 3 weeks. Collies can be a mouthy breed at the best of times and are also very clever and have lots of energy so need to be trained and handled properly to bring out the best in them.

http://apdt.ie/index.php/find-a-trainer/dog-trainers-in-kildare/

**Vai**

tk123 wrote: »

Dominance and pack leader stuff is old school these days and not highly regarded - positive reinforcement is the way to go.

Its a way to go, not the only way. I dont like all the bad press dominance training gets on here, it gets dismissed because people assume its a bad thing that hurts dogs when, in fact its not when done properly. Not trying to start a debate because we've had it before but my dogs are trained very well mostly using dominance techniques. Positive reinforcement has its bad side too. Theres no one way, different situations/dogs/owners require different answers and techniques. I dont only use dominance but its a big part of it and my dogs are anything but afraid of me. If your dog is afraid of you, you have failed.

OP you describe yourself as the big dog in the house, your dog does not see it your way. A dog that respects you will not bite you. Training classes are the normal suggestion for these problems on here and may well be worth a go. It can be fixed at home as well, I believe, with the right rules for your dog. Dont slap the dog, it does not help and no one, not even people who are sometimes villified for using responsible dominance techniques will tell you otherwise.

seamus

Two very important things to remember;

You've only had him 3 weeks. And he's a rescue.

You need the dog to develop a bond with you, and 3 weeks is not that long a time. And rescues may have been mistreated in the past, or haven't been socialised properly or have x, y & z issues that you don't know about that need to be dealt with.

From a general reading of your post though it sounds like the dog was in a playful mood and in the absence of any serious growling or strong biting, it sounds like there was a misunderstanding between you and the dog where he thought you were playing and so went to grab your hand. Obviously I wasn't there, I can only suppose.

Going to obedience lessons, as suggested above is an absolute must. Developing a proper bond and mutual trust and respect between you is not a 3 week thing. It takes months and years.

I'd agree with Toulouse, and without meaning to be offensive, you do sound like you need a little education yourself on how to control and discipline the dog. This is what obedience classes achieve - you learn how to create an obedient dog.

piperh

I think its very hard to judge whether a bite was intended as a bite or not without actually being there so i'll take your word for it.

I understand that not everyone has the money for classes/behaviorists ect so if that is the case in this instance i think patience and being careful is the only way forward.

Unfortunatly the dog is now going to pick up on your unease so you need to go back to basics and try and relax around the dog. Make sure that the dog is never left unsupervised with the child so as to minimise the stress all around, if the dog is not put into a situation where it can fail it won't. As you don't know how this dog was treated before it really will have to be kid gloves with training and in this instance i think positive training where you reward good and make bad boring is the way forward.

Kashkai

It appears that there is an impression that I know nothing about dogs. Ok, let me say one thing. This is not my first dog, in fact I had dogs most of my life, the last one was with me for 15 years. The difference between those dogs and this one is that I had them from pups and trained them well without, as I said in my original post, ever having to lay a hand on them in anger. I don't agree with physical abusing people or animals but last night's incidence was totally unprovoked. Saying "Sit Marley" in a normal conversational tone and gently pressing down on his hind quarters does not leave me open to getting bitten on the hand. If, as has been suggested above, I belong to an "old school" of dog ownership by reacting to this behaviour, then so be it.

I think dog training/dog behaviourist sounds a little bit er, American to me. A dog is a dog, he gets fed, watered, exercised, played with, generally looked after and most importantly, trained by his owner but he is just a dog and there has to be rules and boundaries and if he gains the upper hand and dictates the relationship, then I believed you've failed as an owner. I never had to resort to paying someone to tell me how to manage my dog in the past and tbh, I am not going to start now. This dog has a good home, a huge garden to run round, played with every day, exercised every day, fed well, medical needs attended to and is loved by my kids. I train him in the evenings and he has been responding, albeit slowly. He stepped over a line twice the past few days and he needs to learn his place in the family.

I knew I'd upset some people with this post and I'm sure they think I'm a monster for hitting the dog. However, I've probably looked after more dogs who were happy, content and well loved animals than a lot of people on here so I don't think I'm a complete noob to this game. What I am concerned about is this dog's history. He was abandoned along a road for some reason. I thought perhaps it was because his owner was irresponsible. Now I'm wondering if its because the dog was at fault.

borderlinemeath

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Our rescue collie who we have for just over three weeks now tried to bite me last night as I was putting on his harness to bring him for a walk. Now he has been getting a little "uppity" lately like knocking down my young son and scratching his face with his claws while trying to get my son's biscuit.

He's only a rescue and a young rescue at that, who knows what he was let do previous to you having him, he's gaining confidence and while he scratched your son, he didn't "claw" him intentionally. If he wanted to hurt your son he would have bitten him.

Last night I called him over and said "sit" while I attached the harness. He kept jumping about so I put my hand on his back and pushed down while I said sit. This is when he turned and put his teeth into my hand in a not very hard bite. However it was the fact that he bit me that freaked me out. Now I was dubious about getting a dog with young children in the house but the fact that he turned on me, "the big dog in the house" that really got me worried. If he tried it on with me, and got away with it, then what's to stop him biting my children?

You need to train him gradually, putting your hand on his backside and pushing him down may have left him feeling threatened and he reacted in the only way he knew how, with his teeth.

Some of you might not like it but I was so angry at this unprovoked bite that I whalloped him and he ran for his kennel and stayed there. I've never had to do this before to any of my other dogs but I'm now having serious doubts about what I thought was a gentle playful dog, but who is now showing a side that I don't like or trust around young children.

No, I don't like that you walloped him. He doesn't know what he did was wrong, he's a rescue and he needs guidance and reward training, not violence. I was lucky enough that the rescue that my guy came from told me about his mild food aggression so I could work with it from the start. You don't know what you're guy has been through. You've gradually gained your dogs confidence over the past few weeks only to knock him back by giving him a wallop. Now he could resort to aggression if he encounters it again.

As other posters have said training is the way forward, he's only young he can and will learn, trainers can come to your home and work with your dog but also with you and how you train and discipline him. It will take hard work, but it will be worth it.

Toulouse

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

It appears that there is an impression that I know nothing about dogs. Ok, let me say one thing. This is not my first dog, in fact I had dogs most of my life, the last one was with me for 15 years. The difference between those dogs and this one is that I had them from pups and trained them well without, as I said in my original post, ever having to lay a hand on them in anger. I don't agree with physical abusing people or animals but last night's incidence was totally unprovoked. Saying "Sit Marley" in a normal conversational tone and gently pressing down on his hind quarters does not leave me open to getting bitten on the hand. If, as has been suggested above, I belong to an "old school" of dog ownership by reacting to this behaviour, then so be it.

I think dog training/dog behaviourist sounds a little bit er, American to me. A dog is a dog, he gets fed, watered, exercised, played with, generally looked after and most importantly, trained by his owner but he is just a dog and there has to be rules and boundaries and if he gains the upper hand and dictates the relationship, then I believed you've failed as an owner. I never had to resort to paying someone to tell me how to manage my dog in the past and tbh, I am not going to start now. This dog has a good home, a huge garden to run round, played with every day, exercised every day, fed well, medical needs attended to and is loved by my kids. I train him in the evenings and he has been responding, albeit slowly. He stepped over a line twice the past few days and he needs to learn his place in the family.

I knew I'd upset some people with this post and I'm sure they think I'm a monster for hitting the dog. However, I've probably looked after more dogs who were happy, content and well loved animals than a lot of people on here so I don't think I'm a complete noob to this game. What I am concerned about is this dog's history. He was abandoned along a road for some reason. I thought perhaps it was because his owner was irresponsible. Now I'm wondering if its because the dog was at fault.

And what? If you know everything then why ask for advice? Even if the dog does have issues you still need to address the training aspect here. I don't really care if you think the whole training/behaviour thing is american, it works alot better than shouting and hitting. Fact of the matter here is that it's been a long time since you owned a dog and from your last couple of posts you haven't a clue what to do when the dog displays behaviour that you don't like except lose the rag at him. So get some professional help, get an assessment and see where to go from there.

From the sound of it your dog is giving you a warning that he's not comfortable with you yet. If he'd wanted to do damage then he would.

You should have done your research on breed and rescue before you went and got him but instead you let your kids pick. You now have no rescue back-up, a dog you don't know how to train or anything about and an attitude towards the people here who are trying to help you make the best of this situation.

What did you want us to say to you?

Kashkai

borderlinemeath wrote: »

He's only a rescue and a young rescue at that, who knows what he was let do previous to you having him, he's gaining confidence and while he scratched your son, he didn't "claw" him intentionally. If he wanted to hurt your son he would have bitten him.


You need to train him gradually, putting your hand on his backside and pushing him down may have left him feeling threatened and he reacted in the only way he knew how, with his teeth.



No, I don't like that you walloped him. He doesn't know what he did was wrong, he's a rescue and he needs guidance and reward training, not violence. I was lucky enough that the rescue that my guy came from told me about his mild food aggression so I could work with it from the start. You don't know what you're guy has been through. You've gradually gained your dogs confidence over the past few weeks only to knock him back by giving him a wallop. Now he could resort to aggression if he encounters it again.

As other posters have said training is the way forward, he's only young he can and will learn, trainers can come to your home and work with your dog but also with you and how you train and discipline him. It will take hard work, but it will be worth it.

With regard to the "scratch" on my 20 month old son's cheek, he missed my sons eye by half an inch and he had three deep claw marks down his cheek.

With regard to me losing the dog's confidence, I'd turn that round by saying that he has lost mine by attacking me first. I never had any of my dogs bite me before and I'm not going to let this one do it now. My primary concern is my five kids, 4 of whom are under 6 years of age and thus couldn't defend themselves if this dog bit them.

I like dogs, always have but I have to admit that I'm surprised at the "pro dog" and "anti human" sentiment on here. I didn't walk outside last night and kick the dog for no reason. I was bringing him for a walk for god's sake and putting on his harness so he wouldn't choke himself as he usually does if I attached the lead to his collar.

This is the first dog I've owned in about 11 years and it looks like a lot has changed in that time, i.e. dogs have equal rights to humans. I was walking him last Saturday with my kids when a full grown boxer runs over and jumps up on him, knocking three of my kids to the ground in the process, and the two dogs start snapping at one another. The Boxer's owner comes over to see if my dog has injured his and he was oblivious to the three kids (that his bloody dog had knocked down) crying on the ground. Since when did dogs come before people?

Kashkai

Toulouse wrote: »

And what? If you know everything then why ask for advice? Even if the dog does have issues you still need to address the training aspect here. I don't really care if you think the whole training/behaviour thing is american, it works alot better than shouting and hitting. Fact of the matter here is that it's been a long time since you owned a dog and from your last couple of posts you haven't a clue what to do when the dog displays behaviour that you don't like except lose the rag at him. So get some professional help, get an assessment and see where to go from there.

From the sound of it your dog is giving you a warning that he's not comfortable with you yet. If he'd wanted to do damage then he would.

You should have done your research on breed and rescue before you went and got him but instead you let your kids pick. You now have no rescue back-up, a dog you don't know how to train or anything about and an attitude towards the people here who are trying to help you make the best of this situation.

What did you want us to say to you?

Thats a lot of assumptions you have about me.

While this is not my first dog, it is my first rescue. We visited ten dog pounds/rescue centres before we found him. I had said no to all the dogs my kids wanted in those other places so, I didn't let my children pick him, where did you get that from???

Of the five dogs I had, four were collies which this one is so I know something about the breed.

What I am shocked about is that its the first time a dog has bitten me. Looks like I'm wrong to have reacted to him and I should have offered him my other hand. I suppose if he had attacked a child, then it would have been the child's fault?

Whispered

I don't think anybody is considering you a "noob" but in all honesty there are so many dogs who are PTS or rehomed due to issues which can be worked on with help. It's not american nor is there anything wrong with asking for help when it's needed.

Even the most experienced of people have to ask for help or advice with their dog at some stage because dogs are all so vastly different. What worked for 90% of them won't work for the other 10% and you have to change your tack. That is what a trainer is there for.

With regards to the slap - a bad idea but a natural reaction!

To say that the dog is well looked after etc is all well and good, but do you expect the dog to understand this and behave appropriately because you've homed him and love him? A dog does not understand that.

Please don't try to blame this on the dog. He did something wrong, do you really think this justifies his previous owner dumping him, on a road!? They obviously didn't put time or effort into looking after him and training him. This is hardly his fault. If you can't handle it and need to rehome him, well that's not the dogs fault either. You've had well trained dogs before, there is no reason you can't handle this boy with a bit more time.

There is a time with most rescues (and fosters) I've found where they begin to settle and test the boundaries. The best way, in my experience, to deal with this is to be very very consistent and fair. You absolutely can work through this. It's 100% normal to be frustrated at this stage so don't worry about that.

seamus

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

This dog has a good home, a huge garden to run round, played with every day, exercised every day, fed well, medical needs attended to and is loved by my kids. I train him in the evenings and he has been responding, albeit slowly. He stepped over a line twice the past few days and he needs to learn his place in the family.

Grand. Then why are you posting here looking for advice? When you are trying to settle in a new adult dog, you will spend the first few months training, establishing boundaries, developing a bond and every so often having a little whoopsie where the dog tests those boundaries and you correct that behaviour.

It's going to be different from bringing in a new puppy because those first few important bonding months take place when the pup is still very small.

It's worth noting that owning a previous dog for 15 years doesn't automatically qualify you as a super dog owner. Again, I'm not trying to get at you, but you probably didn't have to do any active training with that dog for at least ten years. You grew to know the dog, you had your bond, he knew his place and you knew his personality, so at the very least you will be out of practice. And each dog is different. You can't automatically transplant the experience of your previous dog. Each dog requires different handling - they are distinct personalities - and you will need to spend time learning how to handle this one.

What I am concerned about is this dog's history. He was abandoned along a road for some reason. I thought perhaps it was because his owner was irresponsible. Now I'm wondering if its because the dog was at fault.

If someone abandons a dog because of their behaviour, it's because the owner has failed, not the dog. Pretty sure many people here can show you war wounds and all sorts of scars inflicted by dogs (and indeed other animals) who went on to become safe, loving and very well behaved family pets.
You got a nip from your dog, and nothing remotely serious at that - I'm guessing it didn't even break the skin.

Take it as a warning that you don't know everything about this dog and you equally need to learn about the dog just like the dog needs to learn about you.

Being suggested to go to obedience classes shouldn't be taken as a commentary on your skills. I would always be inclined to go to a few classes with a new dog, both to sharpen up my skills and begin socialisation.

borderlinemeath

You've hit the nail on the head yourself, Marley is your first rescue, every other dog you've had you've trained from puppies.

You have to do things differently because Marley has learned behaviour in his past life that needs to be trained out of him, it's not like starting with a puppy who is essentially a blank canvas.

Some rescue dogs do take more work, more time and constant training to get them to behave as you wish, but not necessarily how you would go about it with a puppy. That's where properly qualified trainers come into it, they have worked with dogs to change their behaviour and will work with you to reinforce it.

Taltos

Few things OP.

First - great job on getting a rescue dog.

Looking at your post a few things jumped out at me straight away.
1. You only have him 3 weeks - not enough time for you all to learn how to behave with each other. Also not enough time to retrain him or your family.
2. Do you have any idea of his history - what happened before you got him? Maybe the hand on the back was a trigger or a sign in his last home for "I'm gonna get you now" - not trying to be funny - but either he tried to bite you being playful - or more likely because he was friggin terrified.
3. I don't know how to say this without being harsh so apologies up front - what are you doing letting a two year old get effectively mauled by a dog in your home that has been there for less than 3 weeks? Not being crass but I didn't leave my dogs alone with my cats for at least 2 MONTHS... At least cats can fight back but young children really have no defense but you. Again though the dog seems to be food driven - so training here will help if you are consistent.

In terms of hitting the dog - you are not going to get any fans here. Instead of being angry with the dog - look to see what it is you are doing that could be causing this behaviour and adjust accordingly. Training will be wonderful here - however you and the rest of the family have to be 100% consistent in terms of setting rules, reactions and treatment.

No idea where you are but there are some excellent dog trainers out there - also some dodgy ones so look for a recommendation.

Bear with it - as I said none of us know the dogs history - so you may still have one or two more bumps before you all learn how to get along together as a family.

Toulouse

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Thats a lot of assumptions you have about me.

While this is not my first dog, it is my first rescue. We visited ten dog pounds/rescue centres before we found him. I had said no to all the dogs my kids wanted in those other places so, I didn't let my children pick him, where did you get that from???

Of the five dogs I had, four were collies which this one is so I know something about the breed.

What I am shocked about is that its the first time a dog has bitten me. Looks like I'm wrong to have reacted to him and I should have offered him my other hand. I suppose if he had attacked a child, then it would have been the child's fault?

Apologies Dave, I was going off one of your earlier posts where you said you waited to see what the kids thought before you went ahead. I re-read it there and he was the first dog that you all liked. My bad.

Did the rescue say he was good with kids or did he come from a foster home with kids? Because if I had alot of youngsters then they would be the first questions I would be asking. Personally if I was rehoming to a home with alot of young kids then a collie would be the last dog I'd place there.

Hindsight is easy to have but now it's a case of what happens to this dog now you have him. You will find very few people here who will tell you to hand him back to where you got him. Have you been onto them about him at all, have they offered any help or advice?

If you are worried about the kids and the dog then you need to be strict with the supervision. Nobody here is anti-human but we want to see the best for this poor dog who has obviously not had a good time of it. So again, get an assessment from a reputable trainer and see if it's possible to work with Marley to get him to a point where you have confidence in him.

aisher

In your position I would contact the rescue centre and question them about the dog - I wonder if this agression is a new thing or has he displayed it whilst in the rescue centre? It would be nice to have some background to the dog - also since its only been 3 weeks would the rescue centre offer any help in regard to training? I believe in giving rewards to encourage dogs but I also feel a dog has to know its place in the family - he comes last in the pack - a dog should respect you and not try and be the dominant one - I would recommend Cesar Milan and the Dog Whisper- books and TV - he gives great insights in how dog tick. The kids have to come first - I would not allow him to be alone with the kids at all.

DBB

I'd like to echo much of what Toulouse and Seamus have said to you here Properous Dave, and I'll throw in an observation or two myself.

I know loads and loads of people who have owned dogs all their lives, but they're still not great at training their dogs. As the saying goes (I'll use the clean version), I've had eyes all my life... that doesn't make me an optician.

The truth of the matter is, Properous Dave, that the world of dog training for the past century has been awash with deeply flawed training and potentially very damaging approaches. Whilst many people recently have gone back to positive training (not a new concept, there are scriptures thousands of years old describing positive dog training), which is great, there are still way, way too many people who resort to punishing their dog when things go wrong, and things do go wrong. No dog, and no owner, is perfect.

But physical punishment is never necessary, ever. I specialise in working with aggressive dogs, and I have never, ever, ever, in my career, either shouted at or hit a dog.

Every owner thinks they're a great dog trainer. And indeed, some are superb. But in my experience, most people actually don't really understand where their dog is coming from, and don't use particularly appropriate techniques, relying on what they see from highly-edited and sensationalist TV programs (Barbara Woodhouse, Cesar Milan spring to mind). All owners, even the ones who thought they knew everything, having had a good behaviourist or trainer to their home to help them address a problem, will tell you that they have been enlightened.

As an example, in fairness Properous Dave, your first posts about getting your new dog belied a fair lack of understanding and knowledge about how to manage, handle and train a dog. I know you're not going to like this, but that is what I saw from your posts, as an experienced dog trainer.
So, let me add my couple of observations.

The fact that you used your hand to push the dog's butt into the Sit position tells me that you're not up-to-date with your training techniques. Barbara Woodhouse used this technique in the 1980s, but it is never used now by enlightened dog trainers. Why? Because by pushing the dog into the sit, you're not actually teaching his brain to make the decision... you're forcing the dog into the position instead without him having to think about what he's doing. I'm not denying, this method does eventually work, but it is slower, less effective, and has potential drawbacks which we don't get with positive "hands-off" techniques.

The biggest drawback? The dog comes to resent being physically forced into a position.
Why? The process of pushing the dog into a sit position utilises Negative Reinforcement: the dog sits in order to avoid the unpleasant feeling of pressure on his butt. Modern dog trainers (and indeed, human psychologists and behaviourists) avoid techniques utilising Negative Reinforcement like the plague, because it is just too risky and potentially damaging. It causes resentment and avoidance.

You know what else? A qualified behaviourist would discuss with you, because nobody else has mentioned here, that your dog might just have sore hips, or a sore back, or sore knees. I know he might seem fine charging around the place, but I can tell you that I have seen many dogs being startlingly physically active despite orthopaedic problems. Indeed, running around may not hurt him much. But being shoved from above into a sit position might. You're going to need to cancel this out with a vet.

So you'll see, either way, your dog biting you may seem unprovoked, but it wasn't. Not as far as the dog was concerned anyway: and your lack of understanding this point also suggests you're going to need to brush up on your skills, rather than taking the "No dog bites me" approach.

Someone else has already posted at length about bite inhibition: if your dog had wanted to hurt you, believe me, he would. The fact that he was all wound up about getting his lead on (lead=walk... yay!), then you shoved his butt to the floor which either (a) he has learned to hate, or (b) hurts him, and he felt the need to turn on you without hurting you (I get the impression from your posts that this wasn't a full-strength bite?), is actually a testament to the nice dog you've got there.

I'm not going to counter the whole dominance-theory advice, or that you read Cesar Milan, as these topics have been convered ad nauseum before and quite frankly, it just irritates me too much to talk about these outdated concepts. You've had a setback. You have two choices now. Get help, or give the dog to someone who can handle him and is prepared to do some appropriate work with him.

Whilst you might consider the whole "behaviourist" thing to be "american", and to be honest I think you're being disingenuous to the excellent, highly-trained behaviourists in Europe (indeed, Europe is the international hotbed of dog social cognition research), you will be pleasantly surprised by how much more you'd know your dog, and all future dogs, if you got a good professional in to help you.

If you're not prepared to accept help, I'm afraid you've already started a negative spiral by hitting your dog and by takign the "Me man, you dog" attitude. This could be difficult for you and your dog to spring back from: you don't trust him, he doesn't trust you. In which case, let the dog go to someone who is prepared to understand him and work with him without resorting to physical tactics.

If you decide to get some help, there are many here who'd be more than happy to point you to a properly qualified behaviourist in your area. For the record, this is not a training class issue, it's going to need a one-to-one session in your own home.

Edited to add: For the record, I don't see dogs as being more important, or as important, as humans, and I think it's a bit of a cheap shot when people try to justify physically punishing an animal by accusing their critics of aggrandising where dogs stand in relation to humans.

tk123

**Vai** wrote: »

Its a way to go, not the only way. I dont like all the bad press dominance training gets on here, it gets dismissed because people assume its a bad thing that hurts dogs when, in fact its not when done properly. Not trying to start a debate because we've had it before but my dogs are trained very well mostly using dominance techniques. Positive reinforcement has its bad side too. Theres no one way, different situations/dogs/owners require different answers and techniques. I dont only use dominance but its a big part of it and my dogs are anything but afraid of me. If your dog is afraid of you, you have failed.

I agree 100% - I was in a bit of a hurry typing that and didn't have time to expand on my statement! It just reminded me of of somebody I know of who had gone to a "trainer" who telling them to use very outdated "domiance" ideas - holding the dog down, hitting etc etc which made that dogs issues get a lot worse..

Sorry for dragging the post OT

Wibbs

Great post DBB. Very informative

DBB wrote: »

Someone else has already posted at length about bite inhibition: if your dog had wanted to hurt you, believe me, he would.

+1000. Admission here, I've always let my dogs as pups play bite me. My dad taught me that with our first puppy. He was no dog expert or anything, but his take was by play biting they're learning what's ok and what's not*. Plus like babies they stick every damn thing in their mouths to check out the world. And boy did I get stick for that over the years. And all the dogs in my life were big strong dogs. All would have been on the "restricted dogs" list. I've seen them crunch through a lamb bone in one bite. If they wanted to fcuk me up they could have. They'd play bite as pups and once or twice they'd go too far and I'd go ouch and let them know it hurt and they'd go mad trying to make up for the slight. And it was only once or twice they'd do it and then learn whats what. Oh Ive had each of them put their teeth on me as adults a couple of isolated times, but they never broke the skin and in Every. Single. Case. I had pushed it too far with them. It was me being a gobshíte and they were pushed into a warning "bite" to tell me to feck off and nothing else.




*ASIDE another one of his was the bones and meat and veg long before this new fangled raw diet out there. Then again he was a cheapskate and knew a few butchers so... He used to give my childhood dog whole sheepsheds messy. he'd eat the lot but would leave the teeth well alone. It seemed to work healthwise. I'm 44 now and have only had three dogs in my life since I was 4 with only small breaks between them. My first fella was 16 and died in his sleep, my second I fed on commercial dogfood and he only made it to ten and was pretty bollexed from 8 My last fella who died only a month ago :( . He was sick for about three days and then he died peacefully with me beside him. He was nearly 17. All big dogs(my last fella was nearly 9 stones in weight) and only the middle fella on the pet food ever saw a vets office beyond yearly vaccines. Coincidence? maybe, but I'd be going the bones and raw meat way because of it.

One other thing was he never used our dogs name when giving corrections, only for fun and calling him. Working on the principle that if you use their name for the corrections they're less likely to come when called as they associate that with "oh oh, I'm in the shíte now". Dunno if it's an accepted practice with the pros, but I never had a problem calling my fellas over the years, even when distracted.

theghost

For a start, I wouldn't allow any dog near a 2 year old child who was eating a biscuit or anything else - especially a dog I'd only had for 3 weeks.

I can understand you hitting the dog - you got a shock and reacted instinctively. I really would get a trainer in, though. Like you, a was a bit sceptical of them but I got one in as a last resort 12 years ago and it was the best thing I ever did. The methods she showed me not only turned a very unruly lab/collie cross from a nightmare into a dream (not overnight but within a short space of time) but have proved very effective with every other dog I've had.

JustAThought

It might seem from what I recall from your initial " getting a rescue dog" posts ; that these incidents have touched a nerve and triggered all your worst fears.
It also seems that in a few short weeks you and the mutt have really come a long way; wasn't it her/him that was afraid of coming into the house and had to be carried in, and didn't like being on the lead?
It seems that you've done a great job at making him/er feel at home and settle in; and now she needs to learn some boundaries for her new situation; especially around food and kids.
At nine or ten months She's a big dog so she's still officially very much a pup; and like all kids at a party will be a bit nutty over food and yum things to eat. A dog dosnt have great table manners; and I imagine a delicious biscuit at eye/ child high level might have been like bringing a young Pamela Anderson to a boy scout convention; full of temptations and delights!
I trained my yoke to sit for treats and while food is being poured. It made her really manageable as she knows that if she ever jumps or lunges she gets nothing. She learned it quick. I found it really helpful as she is madly food motivated; and still is.

I never allow her near kids who are eating or have foodie hands; and reward her in parks when she sits or staysaway from them with a treat; again this worked for me. I remember that you said your kids fell in love with the dog; kids are kids and usually generous. Maybe they are having fun giving her or sharing the odd treat/ biscuit so that she's now less hesitant about waiting for it. I agree that it's inexcusable the snatch and grab on your child, she is s big puppy thou; and maybe has to be taught no food from kids at all; that should ease any ambiguity for her/him.

It's hard when you are rescuing or bringing up a new dog and have all the extra responsibilities of children; let alone a few dog mad kids! Perhaps this might be the opportunity to set a few new rules about feeding with the kids; no doubt they got a fright when the dog jumped for the " treat" and accidentally scratched ( badly) the child, but you can use it to make a new feeding rule and routine.
It sounds like the dog ( Marley?) has a great new life with you and your family. I think it already had an issue with leads; arnt harnesses a bit more lengthy and complicated to get into? Might be worth considering this again or looking at plan B's. My dog always mouths her collar; every time I change to a fresh one ( wash, swap, wash!) it's how they explore like us using our fingers. I dint know; maybe she was aiming for it; or maybe she was trying to find out what was going on with all the action and buckles and tasty straps. I don't know. Maybe she was giving a non growling warning that she was afraid or hated it or sthing was hurting her? I don't know.
I agree it's scary and possibly a worst fear but dogs dont have the same ability or makeup as us to slap or wave people away, she must already have a gentle / soft mouth if she didn't bite " properly" ; doubtless she would have if this had been her intention; I think.
I think it does sound Like you have made great progress with this new puppy who has from what I recall a loving and fun nature that was supersede after she was dumped by the only family she had always had ; at about 6 months of age . I hope that with a few food rules and no jumping on kids rules and with the help of your kids in training that she will like all our pups come past this exuberant stage and remain a much loved pet.

I agree with the OP; while your pup is still young and jumpy keep an eye on how they all play together: you don't want the kids to be having her jumping up for balls/ sticks heald at shoulder/ head height while you are training her to not jump up on people!!!

Have you seen the recent thread what's the worst thing your dog has ever done!!! It's worth a lighthearted read : )

Continued successes, you've come a long way in so few weeks& I was sorry to read about your old dog : ( that must be very hard

Boo2

Apparenly when a dog tries to bite u, u are supposed to yawn and looked bored!

planetX

why on earth would you let a dog you've had 3 weeks be around a small toddler with a biscuit:eek:
You have to take responsibility for your own mistakes here.

The other issue is not that uncommon, and anyone with dog training experience will help you sort it out - but it doesn't really sound like you're interested in having to put the work in...

Burkatron

Boo2 wrote: »

Apparenly when a dog tries to bite u, u are supposed to yawn and looked bored!

The dog didn't try to bite him, it gave him either a) a warning nip or b) an over excited playful nip. If the dog was trying to bite him his hand would've been savaged as there was contact made! Great 3rd post ya troll!

but it doesn't really sound like you're interested in having to put the work in...

OP this is what your posts are coming across like! Just because you have the dog from the rescue doesn't mean the job is done which you already know! Coming out with dismissive comments like "That's American" to me sugggests you're not willing to try anything progressive & if you're way doesn't work that's it. We had the same issue with my (late ) boxer who we took after been badly kept for 9 months, I wish I had this info 10 years ago when he was an absolute nut job! Take the advice or give the dog to someone that can handle him!

Whispered

I don't think it comes across that the OP isn't interested. I think some of the posts come across as frustrated, which is totally understandable. But reading the OP's other posts - I really think that the OP just got a fright and is a bit unsure of where to go from here.

OP, could you take a step back, and imagine what advice you'd give if a friend came with the same problems? What questions would you ask the friend and how would you suggest he deal with things.

The absolute hardest thing is to look at something objectively when you're actively dealing with it. When we're emotionally involved, your emotions can get the better of you and it can be hard to see the bigger picture. (Something I'm dealing with right now ). Also the OP's number one concern is for his kids, so while it'd be easy for me to say that he's over reacting, I'm not in the situation, dealing with what the OP is.

From an outside pov there is no reason that this can't be sorted given time and consistent training. OP if you would like training tips, then contact a local trainer, or just ask here. You can decide to either make it work or that it's best for the dog to go. But if you decide you're going to make it work you have to be committed and consistent. If you decide the dog has to go, then try not blame the dog, he's done nothing unexpected, at all.