Junior Cert - Pointless?

Noffles

Is it...?

My son has had his Junior Cert results, has passed and is now eligible to leave school... why is this the case when you can do NOTHING with a Junior Cert and have to continue schooling to get a Leaving Cert?

It's a ****ing rediculous situation and not being irish I'm confused by it, can someone give me a valid excuse for this?

In the UK we do / did GCSE' or O' Levels and finish at 16 with results that either get you in College, in 6th Form or a job... all of which are subject to the usual...

You leave if you want or you continue.. but you still have something that is of value... the junior cert is valueles and pointless.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

The Junior Cert is basically a preparation exam for the Leaving Cert. That's all it is, it prepares student for the pressures of a State Exam. You have to be 16 to leave school and also have a parents permission to do so. So if you were 15 and had parental permission you wouldn't be allowed to leave by law, afaik. There's no point in leaving school after the JC unless you're 100% sure you have a steady job as a tradesman of some kind, because without the Leaving you really have nothing to go on, unless you get very lucky or have a stroke of genius.

16 is much too young go into college or have a full-time job anyway, imo.

Noffles

baz2009 wrote: »

The Junior Cert is basically a preparation exam for the Leaving Cert. That's all it is, it prepares student for the pressures of a State Exam. You have to be 16 to leave school and also have a parents permission to do so. So if you were 15 and had parental permission you wouldn't be allowed to leave by law, afaik. There's no point in leaving school after the JC unless you're 100% sure you have a steady job as a tradesman of some kind, because without the Leaving you really have nothing to go on, unless you get very lucky or have a stroke of genius.

16 is much too young go into college or have a full-time job anyway, imo.

So why, at 16, is it optional?

Orion

Moved to Junior Cert.

spurious

I'm not sure the Junior Cert forum is the most suitable for this thread as it's mainly frequented by people doing their Junior Cert.

I'll see how it goes in Teaching and Lecturing.

doc_17

He can't leave school because he has the the Junior Cert...He can only leave because he is 16. The Junior Cert is unrelated to the fact that he is eligible to leave. If he were 16 and had not done the Junior Cert he would still be able to leave.

Noffles

doc_17 wrote: »

He can't leave school because he has the the Junior Cert...He can only leave because he is 16. The Junior Cert is unrelated to the fact that he is eligible to leave. If he were 16 and had not done the Junior Cert he would still be able to leave.

Maybe I'm being unclear...

The fact that he is 16 has no qualification that he can use to go to college or work and he can leave school, is this not a bad idea. Thus making the Junior Cert a joke really.

Lord TSC

Noffles wrote: »

Maybe I'm being unclear...

The fact that he is 16 has no qualification that he can use to go to college or work and he can leave school, is this not a bad idea. Thus making the Junior Cert a joke really.

It doesn't make the JC a joke. As has been said, the fact he is sixteen is the determining factor in allowing him to leave school. The JC is not related to that. The JC is a dry run for the LC, and is not designed to qualify anyone for anything. It's designed to allow teachers and students to determine what levels are approapriate for the Leaving Cert, which aims them towards the best third level course which qualifies them.

If you decide to drop out of school at 16, it's not the JC's fault. It's a personal decision. It's not that the schools would encourage people to drop out either because to many it would be a "bad idea", but it's the age where society has legally decided it can no longer force someone to attend school. Whether you take up that option is a personal decision, and the JC has no bearing on that.

Delphi91

doc_17 wrote: »

He can't leave school because he has the the Junior Cert...He can only leave because he is 16. The Junior Cert is unrelated to the fact that he is eligible to leave. If he were 16 and had not done the Junior Cert he would still be able to leave.

Untrue.

The legal requirement is that before a student a student can leave school, they must have completed 3 years of second level education or be 16 years of age whichever comes last. Most people leave out the last bit!

If you look at it, you will see that you are obliged to be 16 and have 3 years second level education completed. While you technically don't have to have your JC, you still need to have completed 3rd year.

whiteandlight

The junior cert is technically not worthless. It is a state exam, you get a certification for it from the state. The fact that businesses in Ireland expect a Leaving Cert is not related to the JC but rather the needs of business.

20-30 years ago OP the JC was sufficient to get most jobs. However the world has moved on and the consensus nowadays is that students should stay in education until they have completed a LC. This is primarily because as more and more students sat the LC the worth of the JC was outpaced by it, employers preferred students with more skills/qualifications. Nowadays the JC really is just viewed as a dry run for the important one the LC.

You are seeing the same situation beginning with 3rd level now, the LC qualification is being outpaced because so many students now do third level employers now expect it.

rainbowtrout

Noffles wrote: »

Is it...?

My son has had his Junior Cert results, has passed and is now eligible to leave school... why is this the case when you can do NOTHING with a Junior Cert and have to continue schooling to get a Leaving Cert?

It's a ****ing rediculous situation and not being irish I'm confused by it, can someone give me a valid excuse for this?

In the UK we do / did GCSE' or O' Levels and finish at 16 with results that either get you in College, in 6th Form or a job... all of which are subject to the usual...

You leave if you want or you continue.. but you still have something that is of value... the junior cert is valueles and pointless.

Like everyone else has said the JC has no bearing on when your son can leave school or what he does with it.

The fact of the matter is that if a student wants to study at third level here they must have a Leaving Cert, like a student must have A levels in the UK. So they stay on.

There is nothing to stop students leaving school after Junior Cert here and many still do, there are areas around the country where leaving school after the Junior Cert is still common. There is nothing to stop a student getting a job at 16 in Ireland. However because there is now a tendency for students to stay on in school and complete their Leaving Cert and there is a relatively high proportion of the student population going on to third level, employers have raised the bar when it comes to qualifications for jobs. The qualifications are not always necessary but they go for the best qualified and educated workforce they can get. Which makes it harder for a person to progress who left at 15 or 16 with only the basic qualifications.

Some still leave and go on to do apprenticeships but many of those were in trades and that employment sector has gone belly up in the last few years with the recession. So students are staying on at school.

For instance it's quite possible to go and work in an accountants office after you leave school and work your way up and attend college at night and get your accountancy exams. That was the old way of doing things. Now firms can hire students who have done a degree in accountancy and may have done a work placement as part of their course. They still have to do some exams but they should have some of the work done before they are hired and with a degree have proven to a certain point that they are capable of the work involved.

Same with law. Anyone can sit the FE1 exams, but again in a competitive jobs market law firms can choose to hire the candidates with the best qualifications, so why take someone in who has to learn from scratch?

Sid_Justice

i'm not sure what the original poster is trying to say. anyone that leaves school at 16 is stupid in the modern age, with a jc gcses or anythinhg.

raytray

Noffles, Im not really sure what your point is. I have taught in both Ireland and UK. GCSE and jc are about the same standard and you get a very similar qualification. Therefore any type of job you could get with GCSE you should be able to get with JC. However, in ireland, we have a higher rate of uptake of people continuing education than in the UK. Therefore employers would chose people who have progressed onto LC rather than stopping at JC because they have the choice (especially since the recession!).
You mention that people can progress to college after their GCSE so that makes the GCSE benficial. I presume you mean 'college' as in teaches A levels? Well this is the exact same as progressing onto the Leaving Cert. A levels are not uni courses. The are the English equivalent of Leaving Cert. We dont have 'colleges' in Ireland because we dont have a big enough population to sustain this type of institution. Therefore people stay on in high (secondary) school until they are 18. So in England you leave high school after GCSE at 16 & move onto college. In Ireland you just stay in the same place to do all your education

Rosita

Noffles wrote: »

the junior cert is valueles and pointless.

It is clear that it has reduced in value at this stage all right - as opposed to in my time in school when the majority of those who started in First Year (in my school anyway) left after the Inter Cert (as it was them) and relied on that exam as their ultimate school-leaving qualification.

To argue that it is valueless and pointless too is quite a different matter I think. If it was not there the first state exam student would sit would be the Leaving Cert. Would it be a good idea that their first run at an exam of this style would be their terminal exam upon which so much depends? I also think students might be even more difficult to motivate in school if the Junior Cert was not there. Students tend to perform better when their are discernible consequences to their performance and the Junior Cert for all its arguable foibles at least provides that focal point for them.

If the point of the Junior Cert is to be questioned then why not question the existence of Christmas and summer exams, or indeed any kind of school exam outside of the Leaving Cert too, as nobody gets a job on the basis of them either.

doc_17

Delphi91 wrote: »

Untrue.

The legal requirement is that before a student a student can leave school, they must have completed 3 years of second level education or be 16 years of age whichever comes last. Most people leave out the last bit!

If you look at it, you will see that you are obliged to be 16 and have 3 years second level education completed. While you technically don't have to have your JC, you still need to have completed 3rd year.

At the age of 16 if he hadn't completed 3 years of second level then something would be amiss

If your son has passed his Junior Cert, then why are you even talking about him leaving school? Surely he would follow the natural progression to Leaving Certificate? Out of interest, what would your son like to do himself, career wise?

In today's very competitive job market you have no business leaving school with a Junior Cert. I know that sadly in Ireland today thousands of young people still do (leave) for various reasons, but your son has proved himself in this step of his second level education by sitting and passing a State Exam. The JC may seem 'pointless' on its own, that is not true. It's is a good sound preparation for the Leaving Cert, as other posters have pointed out, which opens the door to further education/3rd level degrees etc. in the same way as GCSE/O Levels in the UK. As for getting a 'job' with the Junior Cert well, I don't need to tell you that's nigh on impossible these days.

In the early-mid 2000s there were hundereds of young men of 16 who left school after their Junior Cert and were taken on as apprentice carpenters/plumbers etc. or found work as labourers on building sites, and there were plenty of opportunities for this, but those days are gone, lots of these still young men have lost their jobs and have been forced to emigrate or sign on the dole. Many are going back to finish their leaving cert to gain access to further study or perhaps have matured and feel they would like to follow alternative career pathways. I don't have exact figures, but amongst the highest percentage of unemployed in this country are young men under 25. They would fit into the category of people mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph.

Best advice for your son - - go on to sit his Leaving Cert !!!:)

Delphi91

doc_17 wrote: »

At the age of 16 if he hadn't completed 3 years of second level then something would be amiss

I agree, but you can have someone who is 16 starting third year, yet they still cannot leave. Similarly, you can be 15 in 5th year and still not be able to leave.

My point is that both criteria have to be achieved before someone can leave post primary education. A lot of people are hung up on the "16" part only.