**Spoilers** Series 6, Episode 13 - "The Wedding of River Song"

pixelburp

To be honest, the more I think about the bo'selecta being the lakeside Doctor who gets bumped off, the more it doesn't even make sense within the internal logic set up earlier in the series.

We see in Let's Kill Hitler that the robot isn't the most graceful creature around - it's quite stifff & clunky, as you'd expect a walking, shape-shifting time machine might be. However, the robot Doctor we had been following all along was perfectly natural in his movements, never showing any signs of clumsiness or an awkward twitch that might have given the game away.

Having said that, I can accept the regeneration thing, because if the bo'selecta can fake clothes, skin, hair etc. then I'm sure it could rustle up some special effects on the direction of the Doc

Morag

Ok I will say this only once.
When you need to preform a impromptu wedding/handfasting, Bowties are cool.

DirtyBollox

pixelburp wrote: »

To be honest, the more I think about the bo'selecta being the lakeside Doctor who gets bumped off, the more it doesn't even make sense within the internal logic set up earlier in the series.

We see in Let's Kill Hitler that the robot isn't the most graceful creature around - it's quite stifff & clunky, as you'd expect a walking, shape-shifting time machine might be. However, the robot Doctor we had been following all along was perfectly natural in his movements, never showing any signs of clumsiness or an awkward twitch that might have given the game away.

Having said that, I can accept the regeneration thing, because if the bo'selecta can fake clothes, skin, hair etc. then I'm sure it could rustle up some special effects on the direction of the Doc

i imagine as they wanted to help so much they put in as much effort as they could. like they did with the regeneration. either that or it was to do with some wibbly wobbly timey wimey thing

Cyndaquil

pixelburp wrote: »

To be honest, the more I think about the bo'selecta being the lakeside Doctor who gets bumped off, the more it doesn't even make sense within the internal logic set up earlier in the series.

We see in Let's Kill Hitler that the robot isn't the most graceful creature around - it's quite stifff & clunky, as you'd expect a walking, shape-shifting time machine might be. However, the robot Doctor we had been following all along was perfectly natural in his movements, never showing any signs of clumsiness or an awkward twitch that might have given the game away.

Having said that, I can accept the regeneration thing, because if the bo'selecta can fake clothes, skin, hair etc. then I'm sure it could rustle up some special effects on the direction of the Doc

Good point. But I suppose we need to remember this is The Doctor operating it... he can animate toys with his sonic screwdriver, repair and disable Time Agent wrist watches with seemingly little effort. Maybe he's just that good with technology that he was able to operate the robot as well as he did.

yaines

Cyndaquil wrote: »

Good point. But I suppose we need to remember this is The Doctor operating it... he can animate toys with his sonic screwdriver, repair and disable Time Agent wrist watches with seemingly little effort. Maybe he's just that good with technology that he was able to operate the robot as well as he did.

Fair point. I think this is the excuse I'll go with!

I'm still thinking about this ep. I'm starting to come around but I'll definitely need to rewatch it. I have it recorded at home so I just need to get time.

Did anyone else lol at the "Texting and Scones" scene? Hilarious!

BaconZombie

pixelburp wrote: »

Having said that, I can accept the regeneration thing, because if the bo'selecta can fake clothes, skin, hair etc. then I'm sure it could rustle up some special effects on the direction of the Doc

Stolen from /r/DoctorWho

[–]ColtonProvias (_) 30 points 16 hours ago (36|8)

The fumes from a teselecta as it short circuits are yellow from a high about of sodium channels for conducting the electricity within it. Upon a heavy strike, the system automatically goes into a mode meant to save its inhabitants by venting this yellow smoke out of the pours that are used for emulating sweat and the like.

tl;dr: Magic Smoke is now yellow.

Mr.Saturn

It's interesting to note how the arcs of both Moffat seasons have revolved around undoing a lot of RTD's handiwork:

The Cracks in the Universe= A la carte continuity from here on in.
Lake Silencio= The (wait for it) de-deification of the Doctor, no more Lonely Angel or Timelord Victorious.

I'm wondering if that's it, maybe there's more to come. Less companion-centric perhaps?

Yahew

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

It's interesting to note how the arcs of both Moffat seasons have revolved around undoing a lot of RTD's handiwork:

The Cracks in the Universe= A la carte continuity from here on in.
Lake Silencio= The (wait for it) de-deification of the Doctor, no more Lonely Angel or Timelord Victorious.

I'm wondering if that's it, maybe there's more to come. Less companion-centric perhaps?

I thought the dismissal of River's plan to transmit to the entire universe and time was an attack on RTD. That kind of thing have saved the Doctor in RTD's universe. The Doctor dismissed that, out of hand. And went about saving himself.

pixelburp

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

It's interesting to note how the arcs of both Moffat seasons have revolved around undoing a lot of RTD's handiwork:

The Cracks in the Universe= A la carte continuity from here on in.
Lake Silencio= The (wait for it) de-deification of the Doctor, no more Lonely Angel or Timelord Victorious.

I'm wondering if that's it, maybe there's more to come. Less companion-centric perhaps?

I don't think you're too far from the truth to be honest - Moffat and RTD were always two different types of fans in their own way, both coming from different perspectives of who/what the Doctor is. I've always wondered what Moffat made of RTD's run after taking over his predecessor's role, and as you suggest, perhaps we're seeing the answer to that through Moffat's fairly surgical removal of the tropes of the RTD years.

I'd say by now the Doctor is a strong enough character in his own right to shoulder the show once again: afterall, when it returned to our screens, RTD needed to use the companion as the audience-surrogate figure so we'd accept this universe easier. I don't feel we need this anymore, and any excuse for more Matt Smith screentime is ok by me

Agent Smith

I did honnestly whoop when i saw the dalek.



Daleks are cool....

Yahew

pixelburp wrote: »

I don't think you're too far from the truth to be honest - Moffat and RTD were always two different types of fans in their own way, both coming from different perspectives of who/what the Doctor is. I've always wondered what Moffat made of RTD's run after taking over his predecessor's role, and as you suggest, perhaps we're seeing the answer to that through Moffat's fairly surgical removal of the tropes of the RTD years.

I'd say by now the Doctor is a strong enough character in his own right to shoulder the show once again: afterall, when it returned to our screens, RTD needed to use the companion as the audience-surrogate figure so we'd accept this universe easier. I don't feel we need this anymore, and any excuse for more Matt Smith screentime is ok by me

I'd like if, the present companions being married, he mostly left them on Earth, and occasionally took them places. And sometimes Craig and Steph. Mix it up.

Yahew

Yahew wrote: »

I thought the dismissal of River's plan to transmit to the entire universe and time was an attack on RTD. That kind of thing have saved the Doctor in RTD's universe. The Doctor dismissed that, out of hand. And went about saving himself.

Have to say I was shocked by Moffat using that plot device until the Doctor dismissed it and said it was embarrassing. Really said a lot.

As for the Doctor's Name: We already know that he will tell River his name. Perhaps he can only do that as he is about to die as a means of saving himself? If Moffat told Tennant what it meant to tell River his name in Silence in the Library or, at least, told him the type of look he had to give, then it would certainly imply he can only say his true name at some very important point in his life. Since it can't be his marriage then what else could it be?

Yahew

Deleted User wrote: »

Have to say I was shocked by Moffat using that plot device until the Doctor dismissed it and said it was embarrassing. Really said a lot.

As for the Doctor's Name: We already know that he will tell River his name. Perhaps he can only do that as he is about to die as a means of saving himself? If Moffat told Tennant what it meant to tell River his name in Silence in the Library or, at least, told him the type of look he had to give, then it would certainly imply he can only say his true name at some very important point in his life. Since it can't be his marriage then what else could it be?

Um, sex? thats been implied.

L

Agent Smith wrote: »

Daleks are cool....

?

Yahew

Yahew wrote: »

Um, sex? thats been implied.

What, you think he started shouting "say my name River!!" and she replied, "Well Sweetie, I would if I knew it!" ?

If there was an implication that's when he tells her his name I'd be astonished.

ríomhaire

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

that was the first ep of doctor who in a long time that I really really liked, except for the question

why does the new who insist on making the doctor the centre of ****ing *everything*? he's just a god damn random timelord who robbed a tardis and set off to have adventures, he is not a god and while he may be the point of the show he is not the point of existence.
new who needs to pull its head out of its ass.

I think that was pretty much the point of all this. He's going to be more anonymous from now on. Not announcing himself so much.

SparklersJo

Am I the only one who has a problem with the fact that the universe fixed itself when the Tessalect died? If just the Tessalect dies, and not the Doctor, then the fixed point was still not satisfied, was it? Even if people think he has died, he still exists. Or is it supposed to be that the fixed point in time is that the Tessalect dies. Does this and will this always happen? Has he and will he always fool them with a robo-Doc?

Also, in the screwed up universe, the Doctor totally looked like Jesus.

Does this mean as well, that the entire time, even being in prison and when she broke out and when she tells the Doctor she's in prision for murdering a great man, River knew the whole time that she didn't really kill him? I'm getting mixed up in my time lines!

I did think it was a total slap in the face to RTD when the Doctor says River is embarrassing him because she asks for help from all the people who love him. I loved the episode where Martha walked the world for the Doctor spreading his name. But then, I can be quite sentimental and mushy about that kind of thing. Still though:harsh & cold.

I still miss David Tennant.

Penn

SparklersJo wrote: »

Am I the only one who has a problem with the fact that the universe fixed itself when the Tessalect died? If just the Tessalect dies, and not the Doctor, then the fixed point was still not satisfied, was it? Even if people think he has died, he still exists. Or is it supposed to be that the fixed point in time is that the Tessalect dies. Does this and will this always happen? Has he and will he always fool them with a robo-Doc?

He says it to Dorium at the end, that Time said he had to be standing there by the lake at that moment, so he was, he was just wearing a Doctor-suit. The fixed point is satisfied because he himself was there, but it was the Tessalect that was actually shot.

Doctor DooM

I just went back and watched the Silence (OMFG) in the library 2 parter.

I know it's confirmation bias but seriously, watching those episodes it was like every second word spoken was a reference to the current series, planned out in advance.

It's weird though, River says alot of things like "you're the Doctor, but you're not done yet" style of thing and now I see things from her point of view, not 10's... it's like travelling back in time with her to meet him

blastman

Barrington wrote: »

He says it to Dorium at the end, that Time said he had to be standing there by the lake at that moment, so he was, he was just wearing a Doctor-suit. The fixed point is satisfied because he himself was there, but it was the Tessalect that was actually shot.

Exactly, the fixed point was not the Doctor dying, it was River shooting the Doctor. The River that was with Amy and Rory watching on knew this as well, that's why she held Amy back from going to help the Doctor when he was shot the first time.

ríomhaire

Ok I've gathered my thoughts on the finale:

That was very good. Loved a lot of elements from it. Loved the time is all happening at once thing, it was a pretty cool idea but why wasn't there a few more futuristic things too? Some robots with the Roman soldiers would have been even better! :P

Also we finally see the concequences of messing with fixed points. They've been making such a big damn deal out of them without giving any reason why they shouldn't be messed with. They are no longer just an excuse as to why the Doctor can't do X, Y or Z this week.

There is a lot of crying that it's silly that the Doctor fooled history, but who's to say the fixed point wasn't the Teselecta being shot? History might not have been changed at all. The Doctor may not have even realised it as such but that may have been what had always happened at the fixed point and what will always have happened.


As for the rest of the episode. The bit with Churchill and the Doctor and the marks appearing on the Doctor's arm was great. I was hoping throughout this series that at some random point someone would look down and suddenly see a mark on their arm out of nowhere. I love those kinds of "oh ****" moments. Good to see it actually happened.


Rory is more and more awesome with every episode too.


I also like how things got pretty mundane explainations. Why didn't River recognise the spacesuit? Because she was brainwashed? Because of the Silence? Nope, she just lied. Why did she lie? Because she was in on the Doctor faking his death (I would count that as evidence that it was always the Teselecta that was shot). What is River's and the Doctor's ultimate relationship? They're married, just like Amy guessed after knowing River for half an hour. Who did she kill? The Doctor. The most obvious answer was right. She's been serving her time to keep up the ruse that she killed him.

In fact, everything is about faking the Doctor's death and I think that's pretty brilliant. The series has clearly been about showing the Doctor's huge reputation and vanity as a very bad thing. Lots of people are terrified of him and probably rightly so. At this point he's probably killed more people than anyone else in the universe. Now he can duck out and go back to his old traveling around and seeing the universe. He does not need to be a legend anymore.

That said a lot of stuff from this episode seems to only make sense on a meta level. The question of Doctor who?/Who is the Doctor? should never be answered because it would ruin a good mystery of the show so the answer must be prevented from being given. "Fall of the Eleventh" was clearly intended to drive fans mad with speculation but why is "Doctor who?" such a terrible question in-universe? Why do the Silence fear it? Why does the Doctor fear it? It doesn't make sense to me. Is it because he's the Other? Because he'll become the Valeyard?


Also pretty annoyed that how the Silence took control of the TARDIS last series still hasn't been explained. In fact it seems to have been forgotten.

The Recliner

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I just went back and watched the Silence (OMFG) in the library 2 parter.

I know it's confirmation bias but seriously, watching those episodes it was like every second word spoken was a reference to the current series, planned out in advance.

It's weird though, River says alot of things like "you're the Doctor, but you're not done yet" style of thing and now I see things from her point of view, not 10's... it's like travelling back in time with her to meet him

Planning on doing this soon

My GF hasn't seen much Doctor Who pre Matt Smith so will be interested to see what she makes of Rivers first apperance

Liked how much they tied things up in this episode, it felt like a very satisfying outcome to the series and I have to say so far I am very pleased with the way the new series is going

DirtyBollox

just saw this and thought of this thread. :pac:

The Master

Exactly, the fixed point was not the Doctor dying, it was River shooting the Doctor.

No, the fixed point was The Doctor dying at lake silencio in Utah on 22nd April 2011.
As far as the universe is concerned that's what happened

CramCycle

SparklersJo wrote: »

I did think it was a total slap in the face to RTD when the Doctor says River is embarrassing him because she asks for help from all the people who love him.

Different doctor, different personality, that explains it for me

The Master wrote: »

No, the fixed point was The Doctor dying at lake silencio in Utah on 22nd April 2011.
As far as the universe is concerned that's what happened

The fixed point was exactly what happened, although they can be mildly changed (remember the waters of mars, the captain dying on Mars was a fixed point but 10 changed that, sort of, why didn't that bring time to a stop?). We only assume his death is the fixed point, it might always have been his apparent death, it may always have been the event that stopped the silence chasing him, either way the parameters (whatever they were), have been met. Since it was implied that Tennants doctor can tell which points are fixed (presumably so can Smiths), that he could see the parameters and met them as much as needed.

The Mad Hatter

The Master wrote: »

No, the fixed point was The Doctor dying at lake silencio in Utah on 22nd April 2011.
As far as the universe is concerned that's what happened

All the reports say that The Doctor was shot on the beach in Utah. I imagine there's some small conspiracy theory type group - possibly on Clom - which insists that it in fact wasn't actually The Doctor that was shot, but a robot version of The Doctor filled with tiny people, including The Doctor himself, but no-one takes them very seriously.

Sleepy

ríomhaire wrote: »

... but why is "Doctor who?" such a terrible question in-universe? Why do the Silence fear it? Why does the Doctor fear it? It doesn't make sense to me. Is it because he's the Other? Because he'll become the Valeyard?

Because when the Silence have to ask "Doctor Who?" it means he's turned their own greatest weapon against them. If they don't know who he is, they're neither looking for him, nor able to neutralise the threat they perceive him to be to their race.

ríomhaire

The Master wrote: »

No, the fixed point was The Doctor dying at lake silencio in Utah on 22nd April 2011.
As far as the universe is concerned that's what happened

Perhaps the fixed point was River shooting the Teselecta?

SparklersJo

The Master wrote: »

No, the fixed point was The Doctor dying at lake silencio in Utah on 22nd April 2011.
As far as the universe is concerned that's what happened

But if that was the fixed point, I don't think the universe would be fooled so easily. The Silence believe he is dead, but the universe knows differently. So why didn't it rip itself apart again and have everything happening at once.

I think I'll have to go with some of the other explanations, like that the fixed point was that it was a Tessalect that River shot and all for the purpose of hiding the Doctor from everyone now. So in no point in time, did the Doctor ever actually die there. History just said he did. You'd think someone besides River would have known though....like all the tiny law guys inside the Tessalect. They can travel through time too!

CramCycle

SparklersJo wrote: »

You'd think someone besides River would have known though....like all the tiny law guys inside the Tessalect. They can travel through time too!

They know now