Tim Pat Coogan

darkman2

Anyone read any of this man's books? I am currently reading "Ireland in the 21st Century" and it's a joy to read, quite witty and very "Irish".

Denerick

Just his book on Michael Collins. He writes well but some of his historical judgements are a little... well, they smell. He gets what he wants to get out of his sources basically. He has no respect for punctuation either. He holds punctuation in contempt.

Morlar

darkman2 wrote: »

Anyone read any of this man's books? I am currently reading "Ireland in the 21st Century" and it's a joy to read, quite witty and very "Irish".

I have read several of his and found them extremely interesting and accurate. His Collins biography is the definitive work in my view. He is very thorough and comprehensive in his research. His 'Troubles' and '1916' & autobiography are also very worthwhile.

I saw him give a lecture a couple of weeks/month ago at Kilmainham Jail (around the time Tripoli was falling) & managed to get my Collins first edition autographed. He still has an incredible memory and ability to condense massive amounts of information into a easily consumable format. He spoke for 1.5 - 2 hrs or so, mostly on the history of Irish Republicanism in the 20th century and I believe in the whole time he spoke (without notes) I noticed a single factual error (which he almost immediately corrected). Very interesting man and his contribution to the recording of (and popularising) of Irish 20th century History is immense in my view.

I disagree with the assertion that his judgements are incorrect, I think that is a political issue, those of a more unionist persuasion may not appreciate his works or conclusions (may not) but in general, he is seen as rigorous and fair, in my view.

Denerick

His conclusion on Henry Wilson's murder was what I was referring to. I'm not a Unionist. Overall I liked Coogans book on Collins.

El Inho

he would fall into the category of writer and less historian...his use of sources are questionable, and historiographically he leaves a lot to be desired.

id agree with post number 2...

youll enjoy the read, but be wary if citing him for academic works

Denerick

eldwaro wrote: »

he would fall into the category of writer and less historian...his use of sources are questionable, and historiographically he leaves a lot to be desired.

id agree with post number 2...

youll enjoy the read, but be wary if citing him for academic works

Your last line is what I'm getting at. Enjoyable to read and all but he made a few too many value judgements and took a very indulgent interpretation off many of his sources.

tHE vAGGABOND

Read most of his books and love them!

Always very readable and among my favorite writers in any genre

darkman2

I agree. I think his writing style is superb and he does get a fair bit of humour in aswell which is always nice.

hangon

Read his Dev and Collins Bio's.he tries to hide it but he is a through and through Collins man....... not good for an historian but as others have said his prose is excellent!:)

SleepAtNight

Read The Troubles as well. Thought it was very informative and didn't follow, the narrative that we're all now conditioned to believe, that "shur they were all as bad as one another" bullsh1t. I liked the way he pointed out from the begining that the conflict was born out of the unfinished business of the Anglo-Irish war, something a lot of us in the south have trouble grasping. The chapter on dirty tricks is particularly eye-opening and reinforces the fact that the British state was not some peace-brokering observer helplessly looking on as two tribes ripped themselves to pieces. He names some great further reading on the British spook set up in that chapter too.

Would love to read his Collin's book...he really seems to give the man a great defence and I'm guessing by Irish Press days that he was of the FF background himself.

TheUsual

Try "The I.R.A." and "Wherever Green is worn". I am a big fan.

Great writer as an introduction to 19th and 20th century Irish history, you can buy more advanced books on certain subjects from other writers, but just looking at his quotations/references from other sources, the guy knows his stuff, and you can use the internet or library to do research, not like certain single issue authors. A true historian, and a great introduction to Irish history.

SleepAtNight

TheUsual wrote: »

Try "The I.R.A." and "Wherever Green is worn". I am a big fan.

Great writer as an introduction to 19th and 20th century Irish history, you can buy more advanced books on certain subjects from other writers, but just looking at his quotations/references from other sources, the guy knows his stuff, and you can use the internet or library to do research, not like certain single issue authors. A true historian, and a great introduction to Irish history.

He mentions a part in The Troubles that due to his book "The I.R.A." he was approached by British intel for info!
Must put those two on the list as well.

Totally agree, great references and bibliography, should be on the Leaving Cert cirriculum...then again that wouldn't fit in with the state narrative. Ya'd only have pesky kids asking awkward questions about why the state didn't allow the press to report properly on the conflict where numerous atrocities happened and why the likes of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings were swept aside to be forgotten.:rolleyes:

TheUsual

SleepAtNight wrote: »

He mentions a part in The Troubles that due to his book "The I.R.A." he was approached by British intel for info!
Must put those two on the list as well.

Of the last two I mentioned, one is are pretty hard to read (IRA) and the other pretty easy to read (Wherever Green is Worn), both have kept me coming back for more quotes again and again.

SleepAtNight wrote: »

Totally agree, great references and bibliography, should be on the Leaving Cert cirriculum...then again that wouldn't fit in with the state narrative. Ya'd only have pesky kids asking awkward questions about why the state didn't allow the press to report properly on the conflict where numerous atrocities happened and why the likes of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings were swept aside to be forgotten.:rolleyes:

You hit the nail on the head there, we grew up with certain policital slants obvious in our schools and newspapers and RTÉ. Was not obvious at the time but Coogan is no apologist, just gives you the facts.

hangon

SleepAtNight wrote: »

Would love to read his Collin's book...he really seems to give the man a great defence and I'm guessing by Irish Press days that he was of the FF background himself.

Yes he was employed by DEV for the Irish Press newspaper but DEV never paid a decent wage to the workers.
Dev was frugal to the point of near insanity according to Tim Pat in his book 'the tall fella'
Dev collected millions on a trip to the US that has never been recovered,the money was collected by way of bonds.

Tim pat's bio of Collins(the big fella) is much shorter because of how much longer Dev lived.

Dev was always painted as the one who was the villian of the two by a mile because he plotted against Collins to negotiate the Treaty,but since both books were published it turns out Collins was also lying to Dev,big time.

beware if you want to try and get to grips with the Dev/Collins era you need plenty of reading time!:)

Tim Pat has put more of his time effort and research into this era than any other historian i know but he never got to the full truth,and i suppose nobody ever will,even so to understand Ireland his books are 'required reading'

SleepAtNight

hangon wrote: »

Yes he was employed by DEV for the Irish Press newspaper but DEV never paid a decent wage to the workers.
Dev was frugal to the point of near insanity according to Tim Pat in his book 'the tall fella'
Dev collected millions on a trip to the US that has never been recovered,the money was collected by way of bonds.

Tim pat's bio of Collins(the big fella) is much shorter because of how much longer Dev lived.

Dev was always painted as the one who was the villian of the two by a mile because he plotted against Collins to negotiate the Treaty,but since both books were published it turns out Collins was also lying to Dev,big time.

beware if you want to try and get to grips with the Dev/Collins era you need plenty of reading time!:)

Tim Pat has put more of his time effort and research into this era than any other historian i know but he never got to the full truth,and i suppose nobody ever will,even so to understand Ireland his books are 'required reading'

Always heard that went into founding The Press.

Plenty of reading for when the big freeze comes so!

TheUsual

hangon wrote: »

Tim Pat has put more of his time effort and research into this era than any other historian i know but he never got to the full truth,and i suppose nobody ever will,even so to understand Ireland his books are 'required reading'

Who will ever know the real truth of the Collins/Dev divide.
I have read that DeValera had a nervous breakdown during the 1916 rising in Boland's Mills. And then I have read that Collins was "seduced" by a British upper-class woman while he was negotiating the treaty.

Who knows. Myself I think neither of them were as pure as history says they were.
A brand new Country and a brand new Government meant chaos.

hangon

SleepAtNight wrote: »

Always heard that went into founding The Press.

Plenty of reading for when the big freeze comes so!

I will not spoil the ending(s) on you but yeah stock up on salted food and candles until 'the Emergency' is over Lol!