Foreign kids names as gaeilge

goose2005

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

op you seem patriotic right? seeing how you want foreign childrens names translated into irish. how would you feel say if you were living in for example germany or russia right. and they insisted on calling your children their names in german or russian. im guessing you wouldnt be pleased and see it as an insult to your irishness. i dont know you but thats the vibe i get from you

Actually in Russia they would have to transliterate your name into the closest Cyrillic equivalent.

But what really annoys me is the imaginary connections they make between unrelated names that sound a little alike - Edward/Eamonn, Grace/Gráinne, Charles/Cathal, etc.

JMSE

cofy wrote: »

My daughter is the only girl in the class whose name does not translate to Irish. She asked me if I could translate her name as she did not want to be the only girl without an Irish name. I found a website that translated her name and she was delighted, and it sounded lovely. I'm sure that knowing your name in Irish is something of interest to a lot of people but nothing more. The school still uses her forename in english and translate her surname to Irish. If you are going to translate the surname why not translate the forename as well?

yahoo someone who buys in to my devious way of thinking , its just for the sake of the language and keeping it alive, maybe at the expense of some but most of the foreigners I know can't believe why Irish is so unspoken here.

JMSE

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

op you seem patriotic right? seeing how you want foreign childrens names translated into irish. how would you feel say if you were living in for example germany or russia right. and they insisted on calling your children their names in german or russian. im guessing you wouldnt be pleased and see it as an insult to your irishness. i dont know you but thats the vibe i get from you

I'm not sure that I'd mind but then thats a different scenario where German would be the spoken language and the roll would be called in the same spoken language whereas here, the spoken is English and the roll is (in our national school anyway) in unspoken Irish. Hence the desire to revive Irish as much as possible by throwing a few ó ní and mac's around the place.

I suppose this argument is over, theres way more contributors here who don't see the sense in it than share the contrary view.

[Ólúmaidé Ó Leadaípiúpó, Earaideas Tsiorntsoibhits - were they anything to the Galway Tsiorntsoibhits?]

FruitLover

JMSE wrote: »

What a load of bolloney, 'John is not Sean'.... this is Ireland and we actually have a different language here from English

Imagine you had a son named 'Sean'. If he went to school or university in England, would you be happy with him being referred to as 'John' there? Or should he be called by his actual name? Honest answer, please.

(Oops, just spotted that a similar question was posed above, but maybe mine is a little closer to home)

recedite

This thing about the roll call always being in Irish; I never heard of it before, it must be a tradition in some schools. Maybe those wannabee patriotic schools that use English for the rest of the day after roll call, for practical reasons.

So, my kid went to a Gaelscoil (I didn't myself) and the name, with no simple equivalent, wasn't ever translated.

Translating a name can have its advantages though. One time they were having a fundraiser at the Gaelscoil for a sale of work. They had a list of stalls, and wanted all the parents to put their name down for work on a stall. I translated my name and put it down. Never got called for it though, nobody knew who it was :pac:

byhookorbycrook

recedite wrote: »

This thing about the roll call always being in Irish; I never heard of it before, it must be a tradition in some schools. Maybe those wannabee patriotic schools that use English for the rest of the day after roll call, for practical reasons.

Not so much a tradition as a rule, when I was in school.

ITS_A_BADGER

JMSE wrote: »

I suppose this argument is over, theres way more contributors here who don't see the sense in it than share the contrary view.

are you not the contrary one that said "When I asked my kids how the foreign kids get called out at roll call (role call?) time, they said they just get called by their normal name. Isn't that wrong?"

so when you get other peoples views that are not valid in your eyes you dismiss the thread?

Victor

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The roll is meant to be in Irish, but some schools don't do so.

Would you have a copy of that circular?

ted1

Jmse, do you think that kids with Irish names who go to English speaking schools should have their name translated into English?

murraykil

FruitLover wrote: »

Imagine you had a son named 'Sean'. If he went to school or university in England, would you be happy with him being referred to as 'John' there? Or should he be called by his actual name? Honest answer, please.

(Oops, just spotted that a similar question was posed above, but maybe mine is a little closer to home)

Just to be pedantic and to highlight the hazards of translating names, sean is the Irish word for old, Seán is Irish for John.

maddragon

And an oscillator is not an Irishman who eats donkeys.

murraykil

maddragon wrote: »

And an oscillator is not an Irishman who eats donkeys.

Iontach!

FruitLover

murraykil wrote: »

Iontach!

Íontach!

byhookorbycrook

FruitLover wrote: »

Íontach!

iontach

fullbackline

The Roll Book is one of the most important documents in any school. Indeed if a fire were to occur, after the occupants of the school building the roll book is next on list for removal! It is in fact an historical document, similar to baptismal records of churches throughout Ireland. Without such documents the study of genealogy would be quite difficult not to mention finding other records it holds. Using Irish is a pre-requisite to filling up the roll book. Putting it quite simply English is translated into Irish. If a word or name in not translatable...then it is not possible to translate. Nothing too difficult to understand about that I should imagine. Perhaps if we were all so petty we should request that the word cul de sac be translated back into English or Irish so as not to offend our culture... (Irish culture that is!!).

al28283

fullbackline wrote: »

Using Irish is a pre-requisite to filling up the roll book

No it's not

JMSE

Ah lads I've been unable to read your posts until now and some out there are being a bit salty over nothing...

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

are you not the contrary one that said "When I asked my kids how the foreign kids get called out at roll call (role call?) time, they said they just get called by their normal name. Isn't that wrong?"

so when you get other peoples views that are not valid in your eyes you dismiss the thread?

Ah c'mon Badge can't you accept a victory without rubbing it in, ok you're right I personally am contrary :cool: But you're putting words in my mouth there, I havent said anyones views here aren't valid. I didn't dismiss anything either, my case is made, and now .... the prosecution rests.

fullbackline wrote:

if we were all so petty

Is it petty? its just a thread on boards, hardly on the agenda for Croke Park2 - I admit. Beats watchin' the election coverage.

ITS_A_BADGER

JMSE wrote: »

Ah c'mon Badge can't you accept a victory without rubbing it in, ok you're right I personally am contrary :cool: But you're putting words in my mouth there, I havent said anyones views here aren't valid. I didn't dismiss anything either, my case is made, and now .... the prosecution rests.

Never quoted you as saying that man, its was your suggestion of abandoning the thread you started and when you seen a few of the replys. thats the grounds im using about you dismissing the thread. anyways look there no point in arguing on the internet is there theres better things to be at

dpe

Just saw this thread; wow. My daughter has an Irish name, but an English surname (as I'm English but live here and her Mum is Irish). I'd be bloody furious if some school decided to arbitrarily gaelicise my surname, in exactly the same way I'd be furious if I moved back to the UK and they tried to Anglicise my daughter's first name (not that that would ever happen). I would have thought this country of all places would have learned what a bad idea dicking around with people's cultural identity is.

J.R.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The roll is meant to be in Irish, but some schools don't do so.

There is no obligation on any school in the state to translate names into Irish for the Roll Book. There is no rule or DES circular stating so.

The rules for filling in the roll book are inside the front page (as Gaeilge) or in English, inside the back cover.

deise go deo

alproctor wrote: »

Unexpected or not, my point is that John and Seán (as an example) are two completely different names - Dont get me wrong, i appreciate the heritage and history of our country, and that this is an opinion of some on how things should be, and I can understand why this is done, but I just dont agree with it at all.

Thats not true actually, they are linked. Seán is the Irish version of John and vice versa, thats why you can use either on official documents without needing a deed poll.

number10a

As a primary school teacher in training, I have always dealt with rollbooks that were written in Irish, but I have never called it in Irish. It's tedious and takes longer. Even during Irish lessons, I call the child by the name they were given in the language it was given. Having a child in the class who you know as Jerry, for example, and then switching to calling him Diarmuid for an hour or so is just a little strange. I have never seen a rollbook filled in in English though.

If a child from another country was coming into my school and I was the one taking the enrollment, I would very nicely explain the way names are usually entered into rollbooks in Ireland. If the child had a translatable name like Paweł, Pierre or Małgorzata I would ask the parent if they wanted the first name translated into Irish or to remain in their original language - obviously i wouldn't even consider going down that road with Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic. Some parents would love the idea of their child feeling so integrated into Ireland that they have an Irish name so I feel it's important to be given the choice as its likely they are not aware of the practice. Others though would abhor the idea that their original culture and language is being "tossed aside" in favour of Irish as they may see it as a link to home and the child's ancestry. Also, teachers shouldn't really do this without the parents' involvement. Take for example the Polish boy's name Jerzy - many would mistakenly see this as the Polish for Jerry as they look similar. It is in fact the Polish for George. So mistakes can easily be made here and we have to remember that a name is one of the most important parts of a person's identity.

I would never translate a surname. Unless the parent insisted and insisted a lot. Kowalski (the most common Polish surname) can actually be translated to Smith which in turn can be translated to MacGabhann, but this should not be done IMO. We translate our surnames to Irish in this country because the theory behind it is that Ó Murchú for example was forcibly translated to Murphy so it is an outdated method of claiming our "real" culture back from the "oh-so-evil" English language. A foreign surname was never forcibly translated from Irish into English so IMO it should never be translated back to Irish as it was never Irish to begin with. Besides, it would make it difficult for future generations to find their ancestors and it would devalue the child's/parents' heritage too.

Victor

number10a wrote: »

If the child had a translatable name like Paweł, Pierre or Małgorzata I would ask the parent if they wanted the first name translated into Irish or to remain in their original language - obviously i wouldn't even consider going down that road with Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic.

Bigot!

http://www.onlinenigeria.com/nigeriannames/ad.asp?topic=Olumide&blurb=1657

number10a

Victor wrote: »

Bigot!

http://www.onlinenigeria.com/nigeriannames/ad.asp?topic=Olumide&blurb=1657

Okay, you have me there! He can be called Tháinig mo Dhia Oladipupo.

paddyandy

A teacher of irish told me the dept. of education decides on new terms going as gaeilge is that true? and how big is an irish dictionary and how genuinely irish are the words.The poor language is on life support i believe.Thanks.go raibh maith againn.Why has Welsh survived much better?

number10a

The Department of Education doesn't decide on new terminology. That's the Terminology Committee's (An Coiste Tearmaíochta) responsibility. They're basically run by Foras na Gaeilge.

An Irish dictionary is as big as a dictionary for any other language. It's not like we need less words to speak Irish. New words can sometimes be borrowed from other languages. But, a lot of the words they come up with are very artificial as they're just taken straight from English and there's an extra i and a fada thrown in somewhere. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I know I come across words when I'm teaching and I actually have to tell the kids that the word is wrong, scribble it out and write in the correct word. On the other hand, a lot of the words that they come up with can be well thought out and/or borrowed from other languages. The example I always think of here is the word for pineapple. They could have been lazy and called it a pín-úll or something, but they went for anann - a word based on many other European languages such as French, Italian and Polish (ananas in all three languages), rather than borrowing from English.

Don't know anything about the situation in Wales to be honest. As a complete outsider to the situation there, I would say that nationalism plays a big role in the revival of the language. We already have a nation-state of our own, so we no longer need to revive our language to show that we are different (unfortunately). The Welsh speak their language (IMO) to show themselves as different to the English. The revival of the Irish language was going kind of alright before independence and then everyone seemed to let it slide as a priorty.

syklops

A lot of the words they come up with are very artificial. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I know I come across words when I'm teaching and I actually have to tell the kids that the word is wrong, scribble it out and write in the correct word.

Do you mean An Carr, versus An gluastain?

I love the word gluastain. Its almost onomatopoeic.

recedite

paddyandy wrote: »

A teacher of irish told me the dept. of education decides on new terms going as gaeilge is that true? and how big is an irish dictionary and how genuinely irish are the words.The poor language is on life support i believe.Thanks.go raibh maith againn.Why has Welsh survived much better?

Church services were normally conducted through Welsh, which kept it going as a community language even when people became English speakers.

byhookorbycrook

syklops wrote: »

Do you mean An Carr, versus An gluastain?

I love the word gluastain. Its almost onomatopoeic.

or West Kerry "cairt" or "mótair"

Chavways

My name in Irish pretty much just has a fada thrown on every vowel.

paddyandy

recedite wrote: »

Church services were normally conducted through Welsh, which kept it going as a community language even when people became English speakers.

I often heard the Welsh speaking their language on the journey between holyhead and London and thought they are under England and speak Welsh and we have independence and i never hear ours at home..I't does'nt sound indiginous to this part of the world either unlike scottish Gaelic.Sorry if ot.

deise go deo

syklops wrote: »

Do you mean An Carr, versus An gluastain?

I love the word gluastain. Its almost onomatopoeic.

You do know that the word 'Carr' in Irish originally related to a chariot and can be found in Literature further back than the word 'Car' in English?


Gluaisteán is the makey-upy word.

deise go deo

paddyandy wrote: »

A teacher of irish told me the dept. of education decides on new terms going as gaeilge is that true? and how big is an irish dictionary and how genuinely irish are the words.The poor language is on life support i believe.Thanks.go raibh maith againn.Why has Welsh survived much better?

The Welsh Language never dropped below 15% of the population, its at about 20% now.
As to why it survived better? The Protestant Church in Wales would have used Welsh in Welsh speaking areas, the Catholic Church here used English even in areas where no one spoke English.
Also the Famine had a massive impact on the Irish Language, Wales never had that.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons too.

paddyandy

I believe the language did'nt evolve in an onomatopoeic sense and it's incubation in the classroom never worked properly because the phonetics in english impinged and stunted it . Imported popular culture did the rest..

dpe

number10a wrote: »

It's not like we need less words to speak Irish.

No, but English has a far larger vocabulary than any other language on Earth (mainly because everything is irregular so vocab has to do the heavy lifting done by verb tenses in other languages, and because English is so ameanable to loan words). Most languages have about 20,000 "active" words in common usage, English has about 60,000.

deise go deo wrote: »

The Welsh Language never dropped below 15% of the population, its at about 20% now.
As to why it survived better? The Protestant Church in Wales would have used Welsh in Welsh speaking areas, the Catholic Church here used English even in areas where no one spoke English.
Also the Famine had a massive impact on the Irish Language, Wales never had that.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons too.

The biggest single difference is that written Welsh is largely phonetic; its much easier to learn than Irish (I lived in Wales as a kid and learned it and I'm shocking at languages). Welsh is very much a working language and is unembarrassed about simply welshifying English where necessary (and French for that matter), and anecdotally, I don't remember being horrified by Welsh lessons in the way every Irish person I know seems to recall their Irish classes (Pieg gets mentioned a lot).