Wires everywhere!

seosamh

Hi,
I have an old horizon panel with wires that are not clearly labelled and wires running to a few windows and a door that are no longer there because of an extension. I am thinking I need to painstakingly test every wire to see if they still work and can be reused in the replacement panel. Is there an easy way to do this? Can I for instance disconnect the red and black from a sensor and somehow use a light or a buzzer to indicate if there is a match with any of the red and black pairings back at the panel by say using a battery back at the panel. There are about a dozen wires that run to the panel.
Thanks.

KoolKid

You can identify them using a multi meter.
You would need to close ,say,red and black, & measure the resistence in ohms, then open again and check it changes to open.
If its a bad mess you might consider starting from scratch & going wireless.
Do not connect any wires to the battery in the panel. If there is a short on a cable it will go up in smoke.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Hi,
I have an old horizon panel with wires that are not clearly labelled and wires running to a few windows and a door that are no longer there because of an extension. I am thinking I need to painstakingly test every wire to see if they still work and can be reused in the replacement panel. Is there an easy way to do this? Can I for instance disconnect the red and black from a sensor and somehow use a light or a buzzer to indicate if there is a match with any of the red and black pairings back at the panel by say using a battery back at the panel. There are about a dozen wires that run to the panel.
Thanks.

If you disconnect the zone in the panel, remove any resistors if installed also. Connect the cable to the meter set on buzz. By tapping the sensor or opening the window if magnets are used then the buzz will stop. Another solution is to use an oscillator if you have one.

seosamh

Thanks for the advice, guys.

KoolKid

Your welcome,
Lets know how it works out for you.;)

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Thanks for the advice, guys.

Your welcome, if worst comes to the worst you could use a hybrid system utilizing the cables that work and install wire free components where they don't. It will also work out cheaper than installing a complete wire free system.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Your welcome, if worst comes to the worst you could use a hybrid system utilizing the cables that work and install wire free components where they don't. It will also work out cheaper than installing a complete wire free system.

I am thinking of getting the HKC hybrid panel and even if I get the wires sorted, at least I have the option to go wireless later on.

I ran a wire through trunking down into the new extension to cover 3 windows and 3 velux and the door into the garden with sensor contacts. I was thinking of using the unused 4 wires on that line to put in a keypad at the back door. I was originally going to go with a motion detector but can't see the point since all entry points are covered individually. The extra keypad should be straightforward enough, right?
Thanks.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

I am thinking of getting the HKC hybrid panel and even if I get the wires sorted, at least I have the option to go wireless later on.

I ran a wire through trunking down into the new extension to cover 3 windows and 3 velux and the door into the garden with sensor contacts. I was thinking of using the unused 4 wires on that line to put in a keypad at the back door. I was originally going to go with a motion detector but can't see the point since all entry points are covered individually. The extra keypad should be straightforward enough, right?
Thanks.

There is no harm having motion detectors installed as back up along with the perimeter protection. Yes, it is only a mater of connecting the keypad to the system on the 4 cores. Inertia/contacts on windows with openings and just contacts on the velux. If you are going to use the back door as an entry/exit point then a cable to this door on its own so you can have it set on entry/exit will help.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Inertia/contacts on windows with openings and just contacts on the velux.

So, you wouldn't go with inertia/contacts on the velux? Is that because of the rain setting them off? When I was buying the contacts at the electrical shop, the guy there recommended inertia/contacts as that's what he has in his own place on the velux and the rain nor a big bird dropping didn't cause them to go off. I was initially just going to use contacts on the velux but took his advice.
Waste of money?

altor

seosamh wrote: »

So, you wouldn't go with inertia/contacts on the velux? Is that because of the rain setting them off? When I was buying the contacts at the electrical shop, the guy there recommended inertia/contacts as that's what he has in his own place on the velux and the rain nor a big bird dropping didn't cause them to go off. I was initially just going to use contacts on the velux but took his advice.
Waste of money?

Contacts are recommended for velux.You are liable to get false alarms with inertia/contacts on the velux. It is due to the way they are installed, heavy rain hail stones an so will set them off leading to false alarms.

seosamh

Just to let you know how I got on. I used a multimeter on each individual wire. Firstly I picked a window and disconnected the sensor to expose the wires. Then I hooked up a 9 volt battery to the two wires, lets say red and black. Then went back to the panel and used the multimeter on the red and black pairings until I found the pair that gave a non-zero reading.
I found all except the two front windows upstairs quick enough. For these I could go wireless or leave them out as it would be unlikely that anyone would try enter this way.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Just to let you know how I got on. I used a multimeter on each individual wire. Firstly I picked a window and disconnected the sensor to expose the wires. Then I hooked up a 9 volt battery to the two wires, lets say red and black. Then went back to the panel and used the multimeter on the red and black pairings until I found the pair that gave a non-zero reading.
I found all except the two front windows upstairs quick enough. For these I could go wireless or leave them out as it would be unlikely that anyone would try enter this way.

Thanks for getting back to us. Where the windows looped to another window ? What happens here is you would of joined the 2 red together, then joint the two black together and connect the battery you are using to the end of line.
If there is no access to these windows then it is unlikely they will be an entry point for a burglar. If there is access to them, the wire free sensor will do the job for you.

KoolKid

If you have access to a multi meter why not just measure the continuity ?

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Thanks for getting back to us. Where the windows looped to another window ? What happens here is you would of joined the 2 red together, then joint the two black together and connect the battery you are using to the end of line.

You could be right, they might be looped. The windows are in different rooms but now that I think of it, it was just one room when the alarm was put in 15-20 years ago. This seems more likely than severed wires. I'll test again tomorrow and see.
Thanks.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

You could be right, they might be looped. The windows are in different rooms but now that I think of it, it was just one room when the alarm was put in 15-20 years ago. This seems more likely than severed wires. I'll test again tomorrow and see.
Thanks.

Your welcome, if you have any other problems let us know

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Your welcome, if you have any other problems let us know

Thanks Altor, those windows were looped and showed up on the continuity test, thanks to Koolkid too. I had to google the continuity feature on the multimeter.

So now I have the wires sorted and have the panel on the wall and powered up.I haven't started wiring up the zones yet. I have the hybrid panel but won't be using the wireless features for now. There are 10 zones available - should I use up most of them to make it easier to pinpoint a faulty sensor if the panel starts to complain later on? Leave a zone or two in case I need to wire up a PIR or second keypad later?

thanks.

altor

Good to hear you got it sorted, saves you a few quid on the wire free sensors also
Yes, it is best to spread the zones among the 10 zones in the panel as it will make fault finding a lot easier if you do have any problems.
The keypad does not use up a zone, it is wired into the keypad bus on the top of the PCB along with the original keypad.

seosamh

I was enquiring at the electrical shop about the HSK GSM and the price I was given was about 320-340e. These must be straightforward enough to install but it would probably be the same price to have an installer do it as he'd get it at wholesale price and the hour labour to install would bring it to the same price.

Just wondering if you think they are worth it. And if it is possible to get the GSM unit to send out a message if there are two senors tripped e.g a window sensor followed by a PIR? Or if it can be set up to send out a message for each sensor tripping e.g one for the window and then another if the PIR is tripped.
thanks.

altor

€320 is the same price I buy it for so you are getting a good price. Yes, that is how they are set up. With the Securewave there is a new GSM coming out in about 8 weeks that will plug straight onto the board Going to be €180- €200. There is no outputs for home automation like on the GSM-P that you have the price for. Yes, that is how they work. It is a verified text to your mobile so you know someone is in. They can be blocked easily if you have the right equipment but I have never seen a blocker being used on a residential property.

seosamh

Thanks Altor, that is good to know - worth the wait as I don't think the home automation would get much use. That helps me too for tomorrow as I was going to place the keypad further from the panel to leave room for the gsm box. Now I don't have to.:D

I am also having trouble with the external bell which doesn't seem to be working. I'll take out the ladder tomorrow and see what's inside. Hope it's not a dummy box.

seosamh

Got my zones wired up and am getting near to finishing. I am thinking about putting a PIR in the kitchen even though the windows and door are all wired with sensors. Recommended?
Anything else I need to look out for with setting up the panel, being a novice and all?
Thanks.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Got my zones wired up and am getting near to finishing. I am thinking about putting a PIR in the kitchen even though the windows and door are all wired with sensors. Recommended?
Anything else I need to look out for with setting up the panel, being a novice and all?
Thanks.

If you have the zones then there is no harm having it installed. Make sure you check the zone types. Entry/exit front door, Panic zone change to panic. Zones 2-10 are set up for alarm by default. Zone 1 is entry/exit but can be changed if you have the front door on another zone. Turn off the gross and pulse for zones that dont have shock sensors on them. If you have a PIR that you will walk in front of when you come in the front door to get to the keypad then in the options menu set this up for access. Also in the option menu if you want the PIR off when in partset set it in here.

seosamh

Thanks, those are good tips. The sensors on the windows are old, maybe 15 years, but they are Aritech. Should they be alright to leave them? They seem to trigger when I tap them with my finger.

I tried to take a look at the old external bell today. Climbed the ladder but the big rusty screw to open the cover wouldn't budge. Not sure whether to leave it and rely on GSM to call for help, neighbours might ignore the bell.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Thanks, those are good tips. The sensors on the windows are old, maybe 15 years, but they are Aritech. Should they be alright to leave them? They seem to trigger when I tap them with my finger.

I tried to take a look at the old external bell today. Climbed the ladder but the big rusty screw to open the cover wouldn't budge. Not sure whether to leave it and rely on GSM to call for help, neighbours might ignore the bell.

Hard to know without testing them really. If you do have a few false alarms you will soon know though Without knowing what colours are connected to what in the bell you will have to leave it off the system. Did you mark what was connected in the old panel ?

KoolKid

15 year old sensors & a rusty bell does not make for a great alarm.
What type aritech sensors are they?
If its these

I'd consider changing them. Do you have many false alarms.
Changing the bell is a must. This is the first & biggest big deterrant.
Take a look at the Pyronix Delta Bell.


If you are disconnecting the bell , remove all connections & take the resistor out of the bell & wire into the panel across Bell Hold Off & Tamper Return.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Hard to know without testing them really. If you do have a few false alarms you will soon know though Without knowing what colours are connected to what in the bell you will have to leave it off the system. Did you mark what was connected in the old panel ?

I found two wires in the old panel that both failed the continuity test, so I thought these must be from old kitchen and bathroom downstairs which were demolished and replaced with the extension. I didn't find a wire for the ext bell and only the two internal bells were wired up in the old panel. Although there was a yellow and blue that showed up continuous on a wire where the red and black were for a window sensor. So maybe I should test these just in case.

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

15 year old sensors & a rusty bell does not make for a great alarm.
What type aritech sensors are they?
If its these

I'd consider changing them. Do you have many false alarms.
Changing the bell is a must. This is the first & biggest big deterrant.
Take a look at the Pyronix Delta Bell.


If you are disconnecting the bell , remove all connections & take the resistor out of the bell & wire into the panel across Bell Hold Off & Tamper Return.

That sensor in the picture is the type I am using to replace some of the old ones and for all the new windows in the kitchen. You don't recommend these?

Is it true that Eircom don't provide an external bell? Do you think having a dummy bell/broken bell can act as a deterrent that might make a burglar think twice? Putting up a new bell is a lot of trouble routing the wire unless it's wireless of course and then there is the maintenance -changing batteries every few years.

KoolKid

I would recommend the bigger 612/13 or the 710/11
Eircom don't provide an external bell as standard. They like to get an extra couple of hundred euro for that privilege. Plus it's to discourage you from cancelling the monitoring.

I think a good external bell is an essential part of an alarm system.
How any one can consider it an optional extra is beyond me..
A wired route is never as hard as you think. Get someone put to take a look.

seosamh

Stroke of great luck today, found the wire for the external bell. So I hooked it up and it worked! The light under the alarm box didn't work. Would the light have its own wires, the wires I hooked up were red and black. Would the blue and yellow control the light? With 15 year since it was installed, could it be the bulb that's gone?
Thanks.

KoolKid

There would be a second pair for the strobe. If its only a 4 core that would have to be Blue & Yellow. Is it already connected at the bell? Can you check the connections there?

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

There would be a second pair for the strobe. If its only a 4 core that would have to be Blue & Yellow. Is it already connected at the bell? Can you check the connections there?

Can't open the external bell box - the rusty screw keeping it shut just won't turn. So I could just wire up the blue and yellow to the strobe slots on the panel and see what happens?