UK to discuss EU withdrawal referendum

Batsy

greendom wrote: »

Migration Watch Uk eh?? - you might as well say The Daily Express

It's the British people who have said that immigration and Europe are their two main concerns, nobody else.

And when it comes to news about immigration and Europe I would more readily trust the likes of The Daily Express, The Daily Mail and The Sun over Lefty media like The Guardian and the BBC, who are out-of-touch with public opinion on important issues like Europe and immigration.

Batsy

meglome wrote: »

From the figures I saw they are not mostly retirees. The point I'm making is there are millions of British people spread around the EU nations. As a member of the EU those British people are entitled to go and live in any EU country they choose. But if Britain is not a member of the EU why should they still be entitled to live there. As it said it works both ways.
.

Who cares if they are retirees or not? Whatever they are they are entitled to live in Britain if they are British. If they all want to come back I would welcome them.

Also, British immigration to other EU countries is no concern of me. I don't live abroad so what happens to these British people who live abroad when Britain leaves the EU is of no concern to me. However, most British people who live in other EU countries contribute to their economies. They put money into their economies. That is very much unlike many of the immigrants coming to Britain who come here expecting to live a life of benefits. Britain needs to get out of the EU.

And btw just to point out most of the Muslims in Britain came from the Middle East or Asia and not anywhere in the EU. So obviously leaving the EU wouldn't have any relevance to that

Without being in the EU we can kick out of the country anybody we like without the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels poking their noses in and telling Britain that it is "against their 'yooman rites.' "

seamus

Batsy wrote: »

That is very much unlike many of the immigrants coming to Britain who come here expecting to live a life of benefits.

As opposed to so many of the British nationals in Britian who expect to live a life of benefits? Do you actually have any figures on what proportion of immigrants live full time off benefits, versus what proportion of UK nationals live off them?

Without being in the EU we can kick out of the country anybody we like without the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels poking their noses in and telling Britain that it is "against their 'yooman rites.' "

I think you'll find that this prattling on about human rights comes primarily from the UDHR, a declaration of the UN, to which the UK is a signatory. The ECHR which is a legally binding part of the EU is largely the same document, or at least contains the bulk of the same ideas. The only difference is that when Britain violates the UDHR, the rest of the planet will impose sanctions on them, not just the EU.

greendom

Batsy wrote: »

It's the British people who have said that immigration and Europe are their two main concerns, nobody else.

And when it comes to news about immigration and Europe I would more readily trust the likes of The Daily Express, The Daily Mail and The Sun over Lefty media like The Guardian and the BBC, who are out-of-touch with public opinion on important issues like Europe and immigration.

If you rely on the Express, Mail and Sun for your information, then it is you who is undoubtedly out of touch.

Batsy

djpbarry wrote: »

What does that even mean? And why does it matter?
I find that incredibly hard to believe. At this moment in time, I’m guessing NHS and welfare reform top most voters’ list of concerns here.

You obviously haven't read my earlier post, have you? Or are you one of those Lefties who don't believe polls about the British people's views on immigration and the EU unless they have been conducted by pro-immigration and pro-EU groups such as The Guardian and the BBC?

Ignoring the fact that the poll was carried out by MigrationWatch, the poll was conducted online – online polls are notoriously unreliable.

Oh, I see. I think that answers my above question. "I will just ignore any polls about the British people's views about the EU and immigration unless they are done by pro-EU and immigration organisations."

Isn’t it amazing how every country in Europe is a “soft touch” when it comes to dealing with immigration

That's not true. Britain is THE soft touch when it comes to immigration. Immigrants are instantly lavished with benefits upon benefits as soon as they enter the country, when in many other EU countries they have to be in those countries a certain amount of time before claiming benefits. Other European countries also kick out Islamic preachers of hate. Britain, on the other hand, protects Islamic preachers of hate and even gives them police protection when they are spouting their vile abuses to followers outside mosques.

As long as they contribute, of course. Right?

British citizens have a right to live in Britain whether they contribute to the economy or not. However, I expect foreigners coming to Britain to contribute to the economy.

You’re right. There are no such places in Ireland. Why do you suppose that is?

Because Ireland has it easy with immigration. Immigration into England is much higher than it is into Ireland and has a much greater impact on British culture, every day life and its towns and cities than it does in Ireland yet you lot have the audacity to lecture the British on them being "racist" over their opposition to the stupidly high amounts of people flooding into Britain. But I suspect if that immigration into Ireland was as high as it was into England, when the skylines of places such as Dublin, Cork and Limerick are domnated by domes and minarets and St Patrick's Day is deemed racist in case it offends Muslims, and when Muslims - living on Irish benefits courtesy of the Irish taxpayer - are preaching outside mosques telling how much they hate Ireland and those Irish taxpayers and want to turn Ireland into an Islamic Caliphate under Sharia Law then you lot my suddenly become as anti-immigration as the British are.

Like I said earlier - it's okay you Irish whingeing about British opposition to immigration when you lot don't have to experience the same levels of immigration than the British do and when immigration has much less impact on Irish towns and cities than it does in Britain. If that day ever comes then you'll know how we currently feel.

greendom

Batsy wrote: »

Without being in the EU we can kick out of the country anybody we like without the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels poking their noses in and telling Britain that it is "against their 'yooman rites.' "

I may be wrong, but you are beginning to sound more and more like a card carrying member of the BNP.

Batsy

greendom wrote: »

I may be wrong, but you are beginning to sound more and more like a card carrying member of the BNP.

Nope. I'm actually sounding like an ordinary member of the British working class.

And it's actually the Left who help parties like the BNP grow thanks to their unpopular support and promotion of immigration.

FreudianSlippers

I'm getting pretty sick of the working class tbh.

Lack of education, lack of desire for education and racism rampant across Ireland and the UK. Some utterly disgusting people with no respect for others, property or anyone that isn't working class as well.

Batsy

Here are some more stats that will come as a bit of an inconvenient truth for the pro-immigration people. The stats show the British people's unfavourable view of immigration.

This article, however, is from the generally pro-immigration BBC, but it shows that even the BBC acknowledges that the British people ARE against more immigration:

Why are we so concerned about immigration?

Mark Easton | 14:00 UK time, Thursday, 3 February 2011

An international survey of eight European and North American countries finds that the British are easily the most hostile on the question of immigration and immigrants - even though five of the nations polled have a greater proportion of foreigners in their population.

According to the research commissioned by US and European think-tanks, people in the UK are much more likely to say there are "too many" immigrants than comparable nations. In Britain the figure is 59% compared to 27% in Germany and the Netherlands - both countries with a higher level of foreign-born residents.

British respondents to the survey by Transatlantic Trends [976KB PDF] are the most likely to say that immigrants, both legal and illegal, are a burden on social services. Two-thirds of Britons see immigration as "more of a problem than an opportunity" compared to around 50% in the US and mainland Europe.

Around a quarter of Brits don't think any migrant should be allowed to access the NHS (25%) or state schools (22%), even if they are here legally. In other European countries with significant immigrant populations, the figure ranges from 1% to 5%.





While eight out of 10 Brits don't think anyone here illegally should have access to state schools or healthcare, the rest of Europe appears far more generous. Most people surveyed on the Continent, around 60%, think those resident illegally should still get free health treatment and around half say they should be able to receive state education.

The international survey polled a minimum of 1,000 people in each of the eight countries. Among the organisations which funded the research are the German Marshall Fund of the United States and the Barrow Cadbury Trust in the UK.

The results suggest the British are more likely than anyone else to say that immigrants take jobs from native-born workers - 58% of us agree with that compared to an average of just 35% in the rest of Europe.

Similarly, 52% of Britons believe that immigrants push down wages compared to an average of 44% among other European nations.

Our relative antipathy towards migrants is surprising given that British respondents are the most likely in Europe to say that immigrants are hard workers (77%). We are also more likely than the average European to believe that immigrants help to plug labour market gaps, with nearly three quarters supporting the idea that government should allow more foreign doctors and nurses into the UK and just over half of us saying more foreign care workers should be invited here to help look after the elderly.

The British are generally more likely than other Europeans to say that second-generation immigrants are integrating well and the most likely to complain that both legal and illegal immigrants are exploited in the workplace.

There is optimism, tolerance, even sympathy in these findings which seem at odds with the negativity and hostility exhibited elsewhere in the survey.

Part of the problem, perhaps, is that our national debate about immigration encourages us to think the level is much higher than it really is. Asked to estimate the proportion of foreign-born people living in the UK, the average guess is 29.4%. The true figure according to OECD data is 10.8%, lower than Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Canada and the USA. When informed of that, the proportion of British respondents thinking it was "too many" fell from 59% to 46% - although this is still much higher than France (16%) or Germany (20%). The average of EU nations polled is 29%.



It may be a consequence of our island-nation status: that moat around our borders encourages greater introspection. It may be a consequence of Empire: the sudden arrival of large numbers of "coloured Colonials", as they were described, in the post-war decades coincided with rapid and unsettling social change. It may be a consequence of a public and political debate about immigration which has often appeared duplicitous and dishonest.

This survey doesn't reveal a bigoted nation but rather a confused one. For 100 years, we have conducted our conversation about immigration in terms of "illegals", "bogus asylum-seekers" and "welfare scroungers" out to steal "British jobs from British workers". Since the Edict of Expulsion in 1290 which saw England's entire Jewish population deported, public debate about foreigners has always been more hysterical than objective.
And yet we are also, I think, a tolerant and broad-minded country in the main. Over centuries, we have experienced wave after wave of migrants and seen how the new arrivals have added something to our cultural tapestry. If we look back far enough, all of us will find elements of migrant stock.

None of the other countries surveyed gets close to the 23% of Britons who regard immigration as the most important issue facing the country today. The average is 10% among European nations, 9% in the US, 5% in Canada.

Why? Not because British race relations, public services or economic prospects are under any greater stress from foreign arrivals than other countries polled. Nor can it be simply population density - the Netherlands has many more people in each square mile than the UK. Rather I suspect it is because, for centuries, when we have heard the word "immigrant" we have tended to find ourselves thinking "threat".

COMMENTS

Mark,

You mention social upheaval in the post war years, do you not think this is ongoing?

The British people don't hate immigrants, they just think there are enough for now.

Genuine refugees should continue to have a place, and we should continue to respect our commitments to the EU, but there are a large number of questions that someone needs to answer -

Why aren't more bogus asylum seekers shipped straight out?
Why and (more importantly how) are refugees able to come here after having passed through other EU countries? Surely if they are running for their lives they stop at the first friendly port?
Why aren't foreign nationals convicted of a crime serious enough to face jail time shipped out the moment the sentence is served?
Why don't (or didn't we until recently) have skills and language requirements for residency?

I'd also like to have seen Australia included in the study for comparison. As another prosperous island nation (on a much bigger island) they face many of the same issue, though have much, much tighter controls.


Also I have a feeling that one of the reasons (and please stay with me here) is the prevalence Muslim immigrants. Some of the societal attitudes that they bring with them as concerns women and their rights are downright backwards.

I know, I know, not all Muslim people are that way, not all muslim women are made to wear the veils, not all that do wear them are forced to, but there is an attitude of separatism, superiority and downright backwards relgious repression of females amongst some immigrant muslim populations. Not to mention that the sight of women swathed entirely in black robes, faces covered, looking for all the world like giant, waddling crows, is both intimidating and alienating for many British people.

I'm not actually one of those people, I couldn't give a rat's back-end what people wear, but I've talked to a lot of others that find it downright objectionable.
*********************

Easton needs to do better research.
This year England will have 402.1 people for every square kilometre, overtaking the figure of 398.5 in Holland and 355.2 in Belgium. These figures were given by the House of Commons library, which examined figures from the Office for National Statistics and the EU's Eurostat.
The density of the population in England this year will be more than four times that of France, which has 99.4 for each square kilometre.
The USA is virtually empty compared with the UK so it is stupid to compare England with the USA, Australia, Canada, Germany, Italy etc. It is because of this overcrowding that the population of the UK, primarily England, do not want more immigration.
************************

This is an interesting article - not just for its content but for the light it throws on the BBC's inability to understand public opinion on immigration. Mark Easton's puzzlement seems entirely genuine, perhaps because he is absorbed in the traditional BBC approach to the issue.
For example, crude comparisons of the immigrant populations of different countries do not allow for the very rapid change in Britain. Net foreign immigration under the last government totalled just over three million - no wonder the public are distrustful when the 1997 manifesto said that " Every country must have firm control over immigration and Britain is no exception."
As regards the economic benefit, that is not in doubt provided that it is limited and controlled as it clearly has not been. The only major survey conducted in the UK is that by the House of Lords in April 2008 but it is hardly ever referred to by the BBC because it concluded that they had found no evidence that net immigration generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population.
Then there is the impact on population about which they are also in denial. The ONS projects a UK population of 70 million in 2029 (up from the present 62 million)with 68% due to immigration if present levels of immigration continue, as indeed they are continuing, but don't expect that to be addressed seriously by the BBC either.
I could go on but readers will get the general drift. Until the BBC make a serious examination of both sides of the immigration argument thay will continue not only to be puzzled but seriously out of touch with the 77% of the publis who want to see immigration reduced - 50% "by a lot".
*********************

Perhaps the fact that surveys seem to show Europeans as more tolerant to immigrants is because of the fact that in most continental countries, jobs ,health care, benefits and many other things are furnished to the native born citizen first and foremost, despite protestations to the contrary. Therefore it may be that the people do not perceive the immigrants as a threat or "jumping the queue ". In Britain however , the perception is that the native born might be regarded as second class citizens in their own country . They may indeed be justified in this thinking where , however well meaning, the facilities for the care and comfort of the immigrant are more freely available and easier to obtain than for the general populace.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2011/02/why_are_we_so_concerned_about_im.html

greendom

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm getting pretty sick of the working class tbh.

Lack of education, lack of desire for education and racism rampant across Ireland and the UK. Some utterly disgusting people with no respect for others, property or anyone that isn't working class as well.

Compared to the vast majority of immigrants, who are generally very keen to suceed, work hard and for their children to do well and respect the country they live in. I think Batsy should redirect his anger to the British working class. More deserving than his current target.

Batsy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm getting pretty sick of the working class tbh.

So you are sick of the vast majority of the people including, more than likely, yourself?

Lack of education, lack of desire for education and racism rampant across Ireland and the UK. Some utterly disgusting people with no respect for others, property or anyone that isn't working class as well.

Yet more ignorant, vile rubbish.

FreudianSlippers

Batsy wrote: »

So you are sick of the vast majority of the people including, more than likely, yourself?

lol. It's cute that you think I'm working class

Yet more ignorant, vile rubbish.

There is a distinct lack of education in the working class and an almost positive disdain for gaining an education and for those with an education.
It's become abundantly clear that the have-nots believe it's perfectly acceptable to rob from those that do have; both through actual burglary/robberies as well as taxes.

srsly78

Batsy your "immigration problem" is the legacy of empire, it has nothing to do with the EU. All those non-anglo-saxons you so despise (like us Irish) are British citizens.

Batsy

greendom wrote: »

. I think Batsy should redirect his anger to the British working class. More deserving than his current target.

So I should direct my anger to people who work hard for a living, who go on to contribute to the British economy almost their whole lives until they retire whilst at the same time look more favourably to people who come to this country to live a life of benefits despite never having contributed to the economy? Yeah right.

England - not the whole of Britain, just England - is the most overcrowded country in the EU and logic and commonsense dictates that if people keep flooding into England then it will continue to get more and more overcrowded with, of course, strain being put on services such as the NHS, he transport service and the education system. England is the most stiflingly overcrowded country in Europe, its health, transport, education services etc cannot keep having to cope with the extra burden being placed on them by uncontrolled immigration and it's now time that an end was put to it.

Maybe, considering that the Irish seem to be so keen on immigration, maybe the English can start dumping the immigrants who arrive into their nation onto Ireland instead. Let Ireland look after them. After all, there's much more room in empty Ireland to fit them all in.

charlemont

If you want to discuss immigration to Britain than I suggest take a taxi through Sparkhill, Birmingham which I done 3 Weeks ago, I was shocked to see it, thought I was in Bangladesh !!

Batsy

srsly78 wrote: »

Batsy your "immigration problem" is the legacy of empire, it has nothing to do with the EU. All those non-anglo-saxons you so despise (like us Irish) are British citizens.

So all those Poles and other Eastern Europeans are flooding to our shores because of the British Empire?

Rubbish.

Batsy

charlemont wrote: »

If you want to discuss immigration to Britain than I suggest take a taxi through Sparkhill, Birmingham which I done 3 Weeks ago, I was shocked to see it, thought I was in Bangladesh !!

Although many Irish people don't know that. They seem to think that England is still like Ireland, with hardly any non-whites and mosques. They don't realise that there are ghettos in big British towns and cities inhabited almost exclusively by Muslims or blacks and that any non-Muslims or blacks stepping onto "their" patch are often threatened (this happened to former MP John Reid in 2006). You walk through these places and ypu could be forgiven you are in Bangalore.

They wonder how the English can be so anti-immigration because many Irish don't realise the impact that immigration has had on Europe's most overcrowded country. Their views will change, though, should Ireland ever go the way of England. When their local pub is demolished to make way for a mosque - has happened in my neighbourhood - then they'll start to see where us English are coming from.

FreudianSlippers

Oh, man... Muslims AND blacks?! Stop the presses... or rather start them and print us up another BNP card!

greendom

Batsy wrote: »

So I should direct my anger to people who work hard for a living, who go on to contribute to the British economy almost their whole lives until they retire whilst at the same time look more favourably to people who come to this country to live a life of benefits despite never having contributed to the economy? Yeah right.

England - not the whole of Britain, just England - is the most overcrowded country in the EU and logic and commonsense dictates that if people keep flooding into England then it will continue to get more and more overcrowded with, of course, strain being put on services such as the NHS, he transport service and the education system. England is the most stiflingly overcrowded country in Europe, its health, transport, education services etc cannot keep having to cope with the extra burden being placed on them by uncontrolled immigration and it's now time that an end was put to it.

Maybe, considering that the Irish seem to be so keen on immigration, maybe the English can start dumping the immigrants who arrive into their nation onto Ireland instead. Let Ireland look after them. After all, there's much more room in empty Ireland to fit them all in.

Immigrants are not lazy. To put the effort and expense in to moving to a new land, leaving their friends and families behind is not something a lazy person would do.

And it's really not a good idea to use the Daily Mail as your source material

http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/2010/08/28/is-england-the-most-crowded-country-in-europe/

K-9

Batsy wrote: »

So all those Poles and other Eastern Europeans are flooding to our shores because of the British Empire?

Rubbish.

Yes, how many is flooding exactly?

Batsy wrote: »

Although many Irish people don't know that. They seem to think that England is still like Ireland, with hardly any non-whites and mosques. They don't realise that there are ghettos in big British towns and cities inhabited almost exclusively by Muslims or blacks and that any non-Muslims or blacks stepping onto "their" patch are often threatened (this happened to former MP John Reid in 2006). You walk through these places and ypu could be forgiven you are in Bangalore.

They wonder how the English can be so anti-immigration because many Irish don't realise the impact that immigration has had on Europe's most overcrowded country. Their views will change, though, should Ireland ever go the way of England. When their local pub is demolished to make way for a mosque - has happened in my neighbourhood - then they'll start to see where us English are coming from.

These ghettoes would have existed in the 80's and 90's, before the UK opened its borders to EU countries?

Batsy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

There is a distinct lack of education in the working class and an almost positive disdain for gaining an education and for those with an education.

No, there isn't. And the working class know more about the impacts of immigration than those higher up the social echelons, who live in the posh leafy suburbs of Surrey with hardly an immigrant in site.

They want to try moving to Bolton, Blackburn or Bradford.

Batsy

K-9 wrote: »

Yes, how many is flooding exactly?

That means there is a lot.

There would be slightly less, though, if the French didn't dump into places such as Sangatte the immigrants into their country that they refused to take so they can offload them all to Britain.

These ghettoes would have existed in the 80's and 90's, before the UK opened its borders to EU countries?

Exactly. Now factor in the Eastern European immigrants and the problem is much worse.

FreudianSlippers

Batsy wrote: »

No, there isn't. And the working class know more about the impacts of immigration than those higher up the social echelons, who live in the posh leafy suburbs of Surrey with hardly an immigrant in site.

Firstly, agree to disagree. I've seen from documentaries and articles about Britain (and Ireland) that the working class attitude towards school and education is that they genuinely don't give a toss.
Education is seen as something inherently NOT working class and ignorance is almost "cool".

Secondly, I don't buy the whole idea that immigration impacts working class people more because there are no immigrants in "leafy suburbs". There are plenty of immigrant lawyers, doctors, accountants and other professionals in Ireland and the UK; the problem with the working class is that due to racism and lack of education there is less integration, which in turn forces immigrants to live in cliques.

They want to try moving to Bolton, Blackburn or Bradford.

I would rather live in a tight-knit community of immigrants than a bunch of BNP supporters tbh.

K-9

Batsy wrote: »

That means there is a lot.

There would be slightly less, though, if the French didn't dump into places such as Sangatte the immigrants into their country that they refused to take so they can offload them all to Britain.

The Poles and other East Europeans are in Sangatte? I'm not familiar with it.

Exactly. Now factor in the Eastern European immigrants and the problem is much worse.

Exactly. Ghettoes are a symptom of Britain's colonial past. I don't think Poles are adding to that particular problem.

oscarBravo

Batsy wrote: »

And when it comes to news about immigration and Europe I would more readily trust the likes of The Daily Express, The Daily Mail and The Sun over Lefty media like The Guardian and the BBC, who are out-of-touch with public opinion on important issues like Europe and immigration.

There's a technical term for that: it's called "confirmation bias". Look it up.

Batsy wrote: »

England - not the whole of Britain, just England - is the most overcrowded country in the EU...

Nope. That would be Malta.

greendom

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a technical term for that: it's called "confirmation bias". Look it up.

Nope. That would be Malta.

Or if you take into account the fact that a fifth of it is underwater, the Netherlands.

charlemont

Batsy wrote: »

Although many Irish people don't know that. They seem to think that England is still like Ireland, with hardly any non-whites and mosques. They don't realise that there are ghettos in big British towns and cities inhabited almost exclusively by Muslims or blacks and that any non-Muslims or blacks stepping onto "their" patch are often threatened (this happened to former MP John Reid in 2006). You walk through these places and ypu could be forgiven you are in Bangalore.

They wonder how the English can be so anti-immigration because many Irish don't realise the impact that immigration has had on Europe's most overcrowded country. Their views will change, though, should Ireland ever go the way of England. When their local pub is demolished to make way for a mosque - has happened in my neighbourhood - then they'll start to see where us English are coming from.

Yes, I myself live in a mixed area in Cork and we all get along grand. My quietest neighbours are the Muslims and I've good time for them, Africans likewise but what I saw in Birmingham blew me away, It was a stereotypical English area with red brick houses but not an Englishman in sight, Just all South Asians, No mixture of races evident, In fairness most immigrants mix well here in Ireland. I just think lots of South Asians couldn't give a toss about British values which is a shame, Us Irish and English politically may have had violent history between us but both our peoples do share the same values in life.

greendom

charlemont wrote: »

Yes, I myself live in a mixed area in Cork and we all get along grand. My quietest neighbours are the Muslims and I've good time for them, Africans likewise but what I saw in Birmingham blew me away, It was a stereotypical English area with red brick houses but not an Englishman in sight, Just all South Asians, No mixture of races evident, In fairness most immigrants mix well here in Ireland. I just think lots of South Asians couldn't give a toss about British values which is a shame, Us Irish and English politically may have had violent history between us but both our peoples do share the same values in life.

And what was it exactly that blew you away in Birmingham? What were the South Asians up to that showed their values to be so different to us Irish and English ?

charlemont

greendom wrote: »

And what was it exactly that blew you away in Birmingham? What were the South Asians up to that showed their values to be so different to us Irish and English ?

Duh !! The sheer amount of them, And the lack of Whites or Blacks or any mixture, Plus passing a school, Every woman there had the veil and a good lot of those were Burkas, To be honest it was a culture shock to me, Have a look at my previous posts and you will see I'v always stuck up for immigrants here in Ireland but this really was like nothing you would see in Ireland.

greendom

charlemont wrote: »

Duh !! The sheer amount of them, And the lack of Whites or Blacks or any mixture, Plus passing a school, Every woman there had the veil and a good lot of those were Burkas, To be honest it was a culture shock to me, Have a look at my previous posts and you will see I'v always stuck up for immigrants here in Ireland but this really was like nothing you would see in Ireland.

You mean they were going about their daily business ? Why was this a problem for you ?

charlemont

greendom wrote: »

You mean they were going about their daily business ? Why was this a problem for you ?

I'm only saying what I saw and I can't remember saying I had a problem about it, Shocked maybe but not a problem so what it really boils down to, Its you who has the problem ??

Jimoslimos

Just a few points to make about your 'supposed' immigration problem

• If people are 'flooding' over the borders into England take it as a welcome sign your economy is in a healthy state compared to everywhere else. Believe me I'd swap our respective economies/immigration in a heartbeat
  
• Behind your thinly veiled racism I can see you have a particular problem with Muslims and blacks - they look different, no? Many of these immigrants come from countries with strong links to the old empire. Funny that people should want to move to Britain after seeing and hearing great things from those settlers plundering their lands.
  
• Burden on society? Much of the wealth in your great nation was 'obtained' during colonial times......from these very countries migrants are coming from....so its as much theirs as yours. Also look at immigration problems in the US - hardly a country noted for its generous social welfare system - so the attraction of sponging of the health system isn't the main reason for immigration.

Your attitude reminds me slightly of that Ronnie Barker & Corbett upper/middle/lower class sketch, except instead of 'knowin your place' you seem to have found a need to further classify immigrants as a group to look down upon

greendom

charlemont wrote: »

I'm only saying what I saw and I can't remember saying I had a problem about it, Shocked maybe but not a problem so what it really boils down to, Its you who has the problem ??

The problem I had is that I was trying to establish the point you were making.

You were shocked by the uniformity of the culture in a particular part of Birmingham. I can understand that if it was the first time you had come across it. But these are normal people, just like you and me, going about their daily lives.

K-9

charlemont wrote: »

I'm only saying what I saw and I can't remember saying I had a problem about it, Shocked maybe but not a problem so what it really boils down to, Its you who has the problem ??

I wonder why they felt the need to restrict themselves to enclaves and ghettoes? Hopefully we can avoid that.

Anyway, I don't see what they have to do with the EU. Most of the immigrants Batsy is against and the ghettoes in particular are a British problem, within their control and not much to do with the EU.

meglome

Batsy wrote: »

Who cares if they are retirees or not? Whatever they are they are entitled to live in Britain if they are British. If they all want to come back I would welcome them.

Also, British immigration to other EU countries is no concern of me. I don't live abroad so what happens to these British people who live abroad when Britain leaves the EU is of no concern to me.

But I'd imagine it is of concern to them. They have chosen to exercise their rights of free travel within the EU and gone to live/work in different EU countries, several million of them. Do you really think they want to be forced back to the UK? Does your particular brand of nationalism mean you don't care about several million of your own people?

Batsy wrote: »

However, most British people who live in other EU countries contribute to their economies. They put money into their economies. That is very much unlike many of the immigrants coming to Britain who come here expecting to live a life of benefits. Britain needs to get out of the EU.

Amazing how you know all this. A lot of British drug dealers holed up in Spain and Holland, I suppose they are contributing in their own way. You know what confirmation bias is?

Batsy wrote: »

Without being in the EU we can kick out of the country anybody we like without the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels poking their noses in and telling Britain that it is "against their 'yooman rites.' "

We'll that's not actually true as you are still signed up to other international treaties such as with the UN. Also as I keep pointing out to you the Muslims and Blacks that you seem especially excitable about didn't come from the EU. They mostly came from the Middle East, Asia, the Caribbean and Africa. What had that got to do with the EU? A lot of that was a leftover of Empire.

djpbarry

seamus wrote: »

I think you'll find that this prattling on about human rights comes primarily from the UDHR, a declaration of the UN, to which the UK is a signatory. The ECHR which is a legally binding part of the EU is largely the same document...

I don’t mean to be pedantic, but the ECHR is a separate entity to the EU.

djpbarry

charlemont wrote: »

Yes, I myself live in a mixed area in Cork and we all get along grand. My quietest neighbours are the Muslims and I've good time for them, Africans likewise but what I saw in Birmingham blew me away, It was a stereotypical English area with red brick houses but not an Englishman in sight, Just all South Asians, No mixture of races evident, In fairness most immigrants mix well here in Ireland.

It’s essentially a throw-back to the end of colonialism. Workers were invited en masse after the second world war to address the massive labour shortage and they were more-or-less all placed together in different parts of the country. This and the reaction of the natives lead to the creation of mono-cultural areas that still exist today. It’s extremely unlikely that such areas will emerge in Ireland because the dynamics of immigration there are completely different.

djpbarry

Batsy wrote: »

...British immigration to other EU countries is no concern of me.

You’re aware that this makes you a great big hypocrite?

Batsy wrote: »

You obviously haven't read my earlier post, have you? Or are you one of those Lefties who don't believe polls about the British people's views on immigration and the EU unless they have been conducted by pro-immigration and pro-EU groups such as The Guardian and the BBC?

I’m sceptical of poles conducted online.

Batsy wrote: »

That's not true. Britain is THE soft touch when it comes to immigration.

And yet there are fewer foreigners in the UK compared to several other European countries.

Batsy wrote: »

Immigrants are instantly lavished with benefits upon benefits as soon as they enter the country...

Really? Fantastic! I’m an immigrant in Britain – where do I apply for all my free stuff?

Batsy wrote: »

...Immigration into England is much higher than it is into Ireland...

As a percentage of population? I doubt it.

Batsy wrote: »

Here are some more stats that will come as a bit of an inconvenient truth for the pro-immigration people. The stats show the British people's unfavourable view of immigration.

So what? I bet Brits generally have an unfavourable view of taxes – should taxation be abolished on that basis?

Anyway, you were trying to make the point that immigration and the EU topped British voters’ list of concerns? That article doesn’t support your argument?

Batsy wrote: »

So all those Poles and other Eastern Europeans are flooding to our shores because of the British Empire?

How many Poles are there in Britain?

Batsy wrote: »

Although many Irish people don't know that. They seem to think that England is still like Ireland, with hardly any non-whites and mosques.

Britain, or England specifically, is still overwhelmingly white, especially outside the big cities. And I can’t help notice that the discussion has taken on a racial dimension.

Batsy wrote: »

They don't realise that there are ghettos in big British towns and cities inhabited almost exclusively by Muslims or blacks...

The creation of which was in no small part the fault of British authorities in the 50’s and 60’s.

Batsy wrote: »

When their local pub is demolished to make way for a mosque - has happened in my neighbourhood - then they'll start to see where us English are coming from.

You want better pubs? I don’t know – I quite like English pubs. Maybe not the ones in Lancashire frequented by white supremacist types, but generally.

Batsy wrote: »

They want to try moving to Bolton, Blackburn or Bradford.

And have to listen to the likes of you, face-to-face? No thanks. I do on the other hand quite enjoy visiting Manchester. Very cool city. You should go – it’s not far from you. Try the curry – it’s awesome. Might cheer you up a bit.

seamus

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t mean to be pedantic, but the ECHR is a separate entity to the EU.

You're right, I actually meant the charter of fundamental rights rather than the european convention on human rights. The ECHR is a second non-EU stick which the UK could be beaten with.

Fratton Fred

djpbarry wrote: »

It’s essentially a throw-back to the end of colonialism. Workers were invited en masse after the second world war to address the massive labour shortage and they were more-or-less all placed together in different parts of the country. This and the reaction of the natives lead to the creation of mono-cultural areas that still exist today. It’s extremely unlikely that such areas will emerge in Ireland because the dynamics of immigration there are completely different.

No it isn't, it is because a lot of the immigrants coming into England can't speak a word of English and staying within their own community negates the need to change that.

djpbarry

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No it isn't, it is because a lot of the immigrants coming into England can't speak a word of English and staying within their own community negates the need to change that.

How did those communities become established in the first place? Why don’t such communities exist in Ireland?

View

seamus wrote: »

You're right, I actually meant the charter of fundamental rights rather than the european convention on human rights. The ECHR is a second non-EU stick which the UK could be beaten with.

The UK has an opt-out on the EU's Charter of Fundamental Rights.

As such, if I understand it correctly,the EU does not have to consider the Fundamental Rights of British Citizens when drafting EU legislation (e.g. Article 2.1 - the right to life!). Nor, it would seem, does the British government have to consider those rights of its citizens when implementing EU law into UK law.

Needless to say, that bizarre situation does not apply to the other member states who have fully accepted the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Fratton Fred

djpbarry wrote: »

How did those communities become established in the first place? Why don’t such communities exist in Ireland?

People go to where the work is, or big cities.

Ireland has not seen anything like the levels of immigration that the UK has, apart from the white, christian eastern europeans.

How did Kilburn become so Irish?

mcwhirter

Fratton Fred wrote: »

People go to where the work is, or big cities.

Ireland has not seen anything like the levels of immigration that the UK has, apart from the white, christian eastern europeans.

How did Kilburn become so Irish?

I don't know why its so irish but Kilburn is a kip, I wouldn't live there.

Musiconomist

Batsy wrote: »

It's the British people who have said that immigration and Europe are their two main concerns, nobody else.

And when it comes to news about immigration and Europe I would more readily trust the likes of The Daily Express, The Daily Mail and The Sun over Lefty media like The Guardian and the BBC, who are out-of-touch with public opinion on important issues like Europe and immigration.

Firstly, they didnt say that.

Your "report" showed that immigration was 4th, Europe was 1st. I believe the economy/jobs was second and dodgy MPs was third.

Secondly, how unbiased can a report from "MigrationWatch" be? I mean, I associate anything-Watch with some menace or threat,ie neighbourhood watch. The survey could be laid out to have "Immigration" as the first box to tick or any other number of influential tricks.

Musiconomist

Batsy wrote: »

Who cares if they are retirees or not? Whatever they are they are entitled to live in Britain if they are British. If they all want to come back I would welcome them.

Soooo.... British citizens can live and work anywhere in the world, but non-British cant?

Batsy wrote: »

Also, British immigration to other EU countries is no concern of me. I don't live abroad so what happens to these British people who live abroad when Britain leaves the EU is of no concern to me. However, most British people who live in other EU countries contribute to their economies. They put money into their economies. That is very much unlike many of the immigrants coming to Britain who come here expecting to live a life of benefits. Britain needs to get out of the EU.

It sounds like you dont even travel abroad. Britain has 8.1 % unemployment. What is the percentage of immigrants living in Britain?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10604117

Batsy wrote: »

Without being in the EU we can kick out of the country anybody we like without the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels poking their noses in and telling Britain that it is "against their 'yooman rites.' "

Unelected?.... If you think the politicians you vote for dont want to be in Europe but are afraid to leave, then they are weak. If they do want to be in Europe, then you shouldnt have voted for them.

srsly78

Batsy you aren't gonna be able to kick British citizens out of the UK :rolleyes:

walrusgumble

View wrote: »

The UK has an opt-out on the EU's Charter of Fundamental Rights.

As such, if I understand it correctly,the EU does not have to consider the Fundamental Rights of British Citizens when drafting EU legislation (e.g. Article 2.1 - the right to life!). Nor, it would seem, does the British government have to consider those rights of its citizens when implementing EU law into UK law.

Needless to say, that bizarre situation does not apply to the other member states who have fully accepted the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

The European Fundamental Charter was a complete waste of time. It is a novelty item that the EU , who had hoped it would get closer to Federalism.

The UK are more than held accountable under the European Convention on Human Rights, which although separate is very similar to the charter, and the EU intends to cede to the ECtHR.

I would not go parading around about the charter if you were of the left wing flavour, as the charter in two recent cases in 2007 have shown a preference on business (its original purpose) over fundamental rights of others.

djpbarry

Fratton Fred wrote: »

People go to where the work is, or big cities.

Sure. But there is a substantial non-Irish population in Dublin for example – why is it that there are no distinct Polish, Pakistani and Nigerian areas, for example? Sure, there will be areas, particularly in the inner city, that are predominantly non-Irish, because that’s where the rents are lowest. But there tends to be a mixture of nationalities living in those areas.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland has not seen anything like the levels of immigration that the UK has...

That’s true – I’m not suggesting that it has. But the point is that there are significant African and Asian communities in Dublin, for example, but not distinct African or Asian communities, or even signs of such communities emerging – why is that?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How did Kilburn become so Irish?

I don’t know to be honest – I’m not familiar with the area’s history. But more generally, the massive shortage of labour post WWII in Britain’s industrial centres, coupled with the British Nationality Act of 1948, led to large numbers of South Asians and Afro-Caribbean arriving in Britain and settling together in the likes of Birmingham, Leeds and Bradford.

getz

djpbarry wrote: »

Sure. But there is a substantial non-Irish population in Dublin for example – why is it that there are no distinct Polish, Pakistani and Nigerian areas, for example? Sure, there will be areas, particularly in the inner city, that are predominantly non-Irish, because that’s where the rents are lowest. But there tends to be a mixture of nationalities living in those areas.
That’s true – I’m not suggesting that it has. But the point is that there are significant African and Asian communities in Dublin, for example, but not distinct African or Asian communities, or even signs of such communities emerging – why is that?
I don’t know to be honest – I’m not familiar with the area’s history. But more generally, the massive shortage of labour post WWII in Britain’s industrial centres, coupled with the British Nationality Act of 1948, led to large numbers of South Asians and Afro-Caribbean arriving in Britain and settling together in the likes of Birmingham, Leeds and Bradford.

i do not think the UKs ethnic problems has anything to do with the west indian,polish,italian,greek and irish,its more to do with some of the asian communities not wanting to intergrate into british society,mistrust has built up over the years that now there are no-go areas in the larger cities,as far as the EU, british citizens have never wanted to be part of it, but they have never been given the chance to have a say,i am almost certain if we had,we would no longer be in it .