Vaccines

mr.mickels

Any of you refuse vaccines for your children. Our firstborn hasn't been vaccinated, and the second on the way won't be either. I would usually not discuss this with people as most parents are very pro-vaccines but in the last few weeks I was surprised to meet a few others who also refused, it was suggested to me that throughout mainland Europe and USA vaccine uptake was on a slight decrease in the last 2 years, some blaming the hysteria surrounding swine flu vaccine program, and I know in Eastern europe vaccine uptake is far lower than in the west.
Any on the boards here who refrain from taking vaccines for themselves and their children?

octo

mr.mickels wrote: »

Any of you refuse vaccines for your children. Our firstborn hasn't been vaccinated, and the second on the way won't be either. I would usually not discuss this with people as most parents are very pro-vaccines but in the last few weeks I was surprised to meet a few others who also refused, it was suggested to me that throughout mainland Europe and USA vaccine uptake was on a slight decrease in the last 2 years, some blaming the hysteria surrounding swine flu vaccine program, and I know in Eastern europe vaccine uptake is far lower than in the west.
Any on the boards here who refrain from taking vaccines for themselves and their children?

Well, partially. My wife and I have given only measles and bcg to our 4-yr old son. However, I do plan to get the tetanus vaccine soon. It`s a complex issue. I don`t believe in the MMR-Autism connection - but there are some risks. However my wife feels more strongly anti-vaccine than me, so we compromise.

In some sense, I believe that those of us not giving vaccines to our kids are piggy-backing on the efforts of the parents who do administer vaccinations to their kids. Where is polio now?

A highly emotive debate. Be careful of what you`ve started!

Ayla

octo wrote: »

In some sense, I believe that those of us not giving vaccines to our kids are piggy-backing on the efforts of the parents who do administer vaccinations to their kids. Where is polio now?

A highly emotive debate. Be careful of what you`ve started!

Agreed to all.

My husband & I are 100% pro vaccines, however we know a number of families who are 100% anti vaccines. To each their own.

That said, I had to wonder at these families when their children suddenly all came down with whooping cough. When's that last time that disease was heard of, and yet it got them all. This will have health implications for these children for the rest of their lives, and it could have been prevented. As octo implied, non-vaccinating families are keeping these diseases alive and they are very dependent upon the rest of society for minimizing their exposure.

Yes, the chance of getting a number of these diseases is significantly less then it may have been in previous generations, but that is the work of vaccines. And personally, I know that if my child got whooping cough, polio, rubella, german measels, etc because I had decided not to vaccinate against them, I would never forgive myself.

I fully respect each family's decision to make their own choices, but the issue against vaccination is one I just may never understand.

Hobbitfeet

I am trying to decide whether or not to vaccinate my baby when it comes and its a very hard decision. I don't really know what to do. I find it very hard to get good unbiased advice from anywhere or anyone. I know a lot of people who have vaccinated and a few who haven't.

One of my major concerns is the age of baby when vaccines are given. My baby is so vulnerable at this early stage and I think it is crazy to being it a cocktail or very dangerous drugs. Another major concern is that we don't really know what is in the vaccines or what negative effects they may have.

I would love if someone could pass on some links or references that I could research for both pro and against vaccines.

HannahDunne

I got all my children done at the time as I felt the vaccines ie 3 in1 were tried and tested.Thankfully all went well. However I am now faced with the girls being offered the female cancer vaccine and all of them being offered the swine flu vaccine. I have refused both on the grounds I dont believe they are tested enough plus the link between swine flu and nacalapsy is too great

quozl

One of my major concerns is the age of baby when vaccines are given. ... Another major concern is that we don't really know what is in the vaccines or what negative effects they may have.

I can understand this. However while you may not be able to predict with 100% certainty the results of vaccines (although the routine childhood ones have been around for years and given to millions and millions of children...), you can predict what whooping cough, diphteria, german measles etc can do to your children.

So if you decide not to get your children immunised you're choosing an unknown danger (which you can hardly believe is very large considering the number of children routinely immunised with these vaccines) versus a known, major, danger.

You're also choosing your own completely uninformed opinion (this is not an insult, we're all uninformed on most things, we can't be experts on everything, or even many things!) over the opinions of the wider medical and scientific community.

You're then also helping to keep a pool of viable hosts for some very unpleasant illnesses around. Children are again dying from measles (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13561766) in the UK, and all across the developed world, because of these decisions.

Here's a video discussing vaccination v anti-vaccination - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo . This would be my own stance on it too.

Hobbitfeet

quozl wrote: »

Here's a video discussing vaccination v anti-vaccination - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo . This would be my own stance on it too.

Don't mean to be rude but you have listed a video given by Magicians not very convincing or people I would listen to about whether to vaccinate my children or not. I find this video plain ridiculous with no useful info or advice.

CathyMoran

My parents did not give me some of the childhood vaccines, as a result I got whooping cough myself when I was a baby and had to get the rubella vaccination in my 20's...it did not take so when I became pregnant in my 30's I had to be extra vigilant to avoid people who might have it...it was horribly scary. I had the vaccine again after I had my son and luckily it took for second time so I was covered when I had my daughter. Just for the risk to pregnant women alone I feel that the vaccines are necessary. My children have had all of them so far (though I hate when they have to get it done). There was an outbreak of one of the MMR viruses where my son attends but luckily he had his jab and was protected, I have never been more relieved in my life though I had been concerned about giving him the vaccine.

quozl

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Don't mean to be rude but you have listed a video given by Magicians not very convincing or people I would listen to about whether to vaccinate my children or not. I find this video plain ridiculous with no useful info or advice.

The video is deliberately comic as the debate itself is somewhat irrational - they are framing it quite accurately. The other points I put before it are more seriously put. Do you have any comments on them?

Here's the World Health Organisation page about vaccination - http://www.who.int/topics/immunization/en/

If you choose not to listen to the WHO that is up to you. However then you would be ignoring the medical and scientific communities advice on this. Something they have expertise in, and neither I, nor you, do.

You would also be choosing to ignore the increasing number of deaths in the developed world due to dropping vaccination rates. Vaccines may (in some very rare cases) hurt children, the diseases they protect against regularly do.

Stark

Sure what's years of medical research when compared with "mother knows best"?

quozl

Hobbitfeet, here is the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) advice page to pages on vaccinations http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/populations/parents.html

Here is the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia vaccine education center - http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/

It covers questions such as your concern about children being too young for vaccines.

I can't find any reputable sites arguing against vaccines - I don't believe there are any. I've no doubt I can find a load of random individuals doing so but I wouldn't know which ones to recommend so you would need to google that side of things yourself.

How Strange

It's a highly emotive subject because you're talking about babies and young children, even your little ones. I'm all for scepticism and questioning but the recent reports of a measles outbreak scared me because my son is 8 months old. It made me ask myself how would I feel if he contracted measles from an non immunised child in say his creche. He's too young to have the vaccination so he's very vulnerable. Measles is a rare disease these days but it's on the increase because parents are choosing not to immunise. Personally I couldn't live with the guilt if my son contracted measles or another preventable disease because I chose not to immunise him and he developed life
long complications.

It's one of those things you have to decide as a parent. There's a risk either way but I suppose you have to weigh up which side, carries the greater risk.

LegacyUser

My baby son has just spent 3 weeks in hospital with whooping cough because some parents didnt vaccinate their children & passed this to my baby. He had to endure horrific episodes of not breathing due to this, full time oxygen & feeding tube. Parents should vaccinate their children, what about the children they are passing these illnesses onto?

Moonbeam

Both my kids will be immunised under the national scheme but neither will get the swine flu vaccine.
This is my personal decision and I do not feel other people are wrong for doing it I just feel that it was rushed through.
I got all the vaccinations that were around when I was a kid including the mmr(which had to be paid for back then) due to other health issues.I have had whooping cough twice and had to get the Rubella vaccine again after my 1st child.
I would not be happy if my kids attended a crèche or play school with other kids that were not vaccinated.

Irish times article on vaccinations - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2011/0503/1224295910703.html

lolli

As someone who has hit by two different deadly strains of meningitis in my life I am very for vaccinations.

I contracted Meningococcal meningitis & septicemia at the age of 12 and i almost died from it. Last year at the age of 3 weeks old my daughter caught Streptococcal meningitis and was seriously ill from it.

I have went through the pain of having meningitis, it was awful. I then had to sit and watch my daughter go through the same awful illness. In my opinion a vaccination is the lesser evil. Trust me you don't want your children going through these awful illnesses.

In my opinion I would rather my daughter gets these vaccinations than to have to sit in a hospital with her again, not knowing if shes going to live or die. I know my parents feel the very same way.

The Princess Bride

Speaking as an experienced Paediatric nurse- you would only have to see one child suffer longterm effects from meningitis,(brain damage,deafness),measles (encephalitis),pertussis to jump into the pro- vaccine camp.And believe me one child is one too many.

However.

As a parent ,it is your responsibility to research the individual vaccines and decide whether or not you wish for your child to be vaccinated.My children were given them(Diptheria/Tetanus/Pertussis/MMR) but I made an informed decision based on my research.

I agree with Hannah Dunne & Moonbeam in relation to swine flu /cervical ca vaccines. I refused consent to both and do not regret that decision.When my daughters are >18 years they may consent to cervical ca vaccine if they wish- at present,having read reviews etc....they are both happy to wait. This programme is ridiculous anyway,boys should be given option also.

octo

msthe80s wrote: »

As a parent ,it is your responsibility to research the individual vaccines and decide whether or not you wish for your child to be vaccinated.My children were given them(Diptheria/Tetanus/Pertussis/MMR) but I made an informed decision based on my research.

Would anyone here know if it is possible to have separate vvaccinations, and where they can be done? When I asked my GP for a Tetanus Vaccination for my son, he insisted on having them all. While I favour this, my wife is against it, and the tetanus shot alone is better than nothing. Anyone know?

mr.mickels

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

I would love if someone could pass on some links or references that I could research for both pro and against vaccines.

There would be loads of info and links on both sides of the fence, as I am not in favour of vaccines I could forward some info but an online search of the subject will yield many results. A documentary on the web called vaccine nation has some info, from there you will likely find much more.

This american doctor refused to vaccinate his children, just an intro worth a glance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNSZpcXPw60

Ayla

mr.mickels wrote: »

This american doctor refused to vaccinate his children, just an intro worth a glance.

That clip (just an intro, as you mentioned) does not offer any sort of correlation between his children's health & the fact they didn't vaccinate. I would strongly advocate that the fact that his children haven't had ear infections/respiratory infections on the fact that he's a chiropractor & as such offers them regular adjustments. These types of infections can be caused by chiropractic issues, so the fact his children aren't getting them does not testify as an anti-vaccination argument. All the other co-worker's children he mentioned would not have had the same chiro care, which massively skews his "analysis."

As others have mentioned, anyone looking will find cases of individuals online who have their own such "success stories," but I personally find it narcissistic to believe that unqualified joe smiths think they know more than the WHO, CDC and every other international medical body who advocates widespread vaccination.

mr.mickels

Ayla wrote: »

I personally find it narcissistic to believe that unqualified joe smiths think they know more than the WHO, CDC and every other international medical body who advocates widespread vaccination.

Rather arrogant of you to assume that guy or any others discussing the subject is an "unqualified joe smith". Those of us who chose to refrain from taking vaccines do so after researching much on the subject, as did that doctor you called joe smith. I certainly gave it very serious thought before making such a decision.
WHO and your "international medical body" are in the pocket of the pharma industry. It can't be ignored that vaccine production is a worth multi billions of dollars to big pharma and those who profit from administering it, and as such their "recommendations" should be treated with a certain caution, afterall big pharma (like any business) is only concerned with profits of big pharma.The profits of their products is of far more importance than the efficiency of their products.

I would hope that vaccines could be discussed without resorting to infantile jibes, it is a shame you lowered the tone with your joe smiths remark.

Ayla

mr.mickels wrote: »

Rather arrogant of you to assume that guy or any others discussing the subject is an "unqualified joe smith". Those of us who chose to refrain from taking vaccines do so after researching much on the subject, as did that doctor you called joe smith. I certainly gave it very serious thought before making such a decision.

I would hope that vaccines could be discussed without resorting to infantile jibes, it is a shame you lowered the tone with your joe smiths remark.

Apologies that that caused offense. I call myself -along with most of the rest of the population - joe smith simply because I have not been through years of medical training nor am I qualified to access, read and assess the multitude of studies that have been done on this subject. Whatever google may tell me is only a small percentage of the information that's out there, and all information is slanted in its own right.

It's good that you're obtaining information and making what you feel is an educated decision. That is not being patronising, it is the truth. The fact remains that if the polio virus is circulating any non-immunised child is at risk. I personally don't care if the pharma companies have made their profit through me & my family...we're not going to get hit with polio. And at the end of the day that is all that matters to me.

mr.mickels

This recent admission of a link with a flu vaccine and serious illnesses maybe of interest to some.

http://www.naturalnews.com/033816_swine_flu_vaccines_neurological_disorders.html

mr.mickels

Ayla wrote: »

That clip (just an intro, as you mentioned) does not offer any sort of correlation between his children's health & the fact they didn't vaccinate. I would strongly advocate that the fact that his children haven't had ear infections/respiratory infections on the fact that he's a chiropractor & as such offers them regular adjustments. These types of infections can be caused by chiropractic issues, so the fact his children aren't getting them does not testify as an anti-vaccination argument. All the other co-worker's children he mentioned would not have had the same chiro care, which massively skews his "analysis."

As others have mentioned, anyone looking will find cases of individuals online who have their own such "success stories," but I personally find it narcissistic to believe that unqualified joe smiths think they know more than the WHO, CDC and every other international medical body who advocates widespread vaccination.

Personally, I think your faith in the polio vaccine is misplaced. if you research the subject you will find very many cases of failures among vaccinated children, a clear case it is not 100% effective to say the least. And there are many other factors involved in the reduction in polio incidences, such as banning DDT chemicals. In actual fact, the CDC reports than over 80% of all cases of Polio in USA in the 1970's was caused by the polio vaccine itself and later declared that all but a few imported cases since were caused by the vaccine--and most of the imported cases occurred in fully immunized individuals!!!!

Six New England states reported increases in polio one year after the Salk vaccine was introduced, ranging from more than doubling in Vermont to Massachusetts' astounding increase of 642%. In 1959, 77.5% of Massachusetts' paralytic cases had received 3 doses of IPV (injected polio vaccine). During 1962 U.S. Congressional hearings, Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the Dept. of Biostatistics for the University of North Carolina School of Public Health, testified that not only did the cases of polio increase substantially after mandatory vaccinations (50% increase from 1957 to 1958, 80% increase from 1958 to 1959), but that the statistics were manipulated by the Public Health Service to give the opposite impression.

90% of polio cases were eliminated from statistics by health authorities' redefinition of the disease when the vaccine was introduced, while in reality the Salk vaccine was continuing to cause paralytic polio in several countries at a time when there were no epidemics being caused by the wild virus.

For example, in the U.S., thousands of cases of viral and aseptic meningitis are reported each year--these were routinely diagnosed as polio before the Salk vaccine; the number of cases needed to declare an epidemic was raised from 20 to 35; and the requirement for inclusion in paralysis statistics was changed from symptoms for 24 hours to symptoms for 60 days; it is no wonder that polio decreased radically after vaccines--at least on paper.

Jonas Salk, inventor of the injected polio vaccine, testified before a Senate subcommittee that nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused by the oral polio vaccine. At a workshop on polio vaccines sponsored by the Institute of Medicine and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Dr. Samuel Katz of Duke University cited the estimated 8-10 annual U.S. cases of vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) in people who have taken the oral polio vaccine, and the absence of wild polio from the western hemisphere.

There is alot I could say about the polio/salk vaccine, but it is better everyone informs themselves. Any research will reveal that the general public are often (always imo) mislead as to the effectiveness of any vaccine.

cynder

My kids had all the vaccines, we waited a while before they got the swine flu jab but all 3 were in high risk, due to diabetes and asthmatic coughs.... I was never vaccinated against tb and my boss has tb, I'm vaccinated against it now I also got the mmr as I was never vaccinated against that. I also had whooping cough as a baby and never had diphtheria or men c vaccinations. I did have the polio I remember been given that at school on a sugar cube

Stark

mr.mickels wrote: »

There is alot I could say about the polio/salk vaccine, but it is better everyone informs themselves. Any research will reveal that the general public are often (always imo) mislead as to the effectiveness of any vaccine.

I don't really need to read dodgy internet "evidence". I haven't seen a single child with polio in Ireland for over 20 years. If I were to believe your assertions, the place should be swarming with them.

cbyrd

As a child i had measles mumps and rubella.. it has left me with hearing impairment from 7 years of chronic earaches headaches and throat infections.. a generally impaired immune system that means as i get older i will pick up more allergies to add to the 4 known ones that i have (one that causes annaphylaxis) i was lucky though.. the measles didn't leave me brain damaged or dead...

The thing about vaccines is they're a victim of their own success.. when you don't see the damage the disease can do you don't realise how important it became to eradicate the disease in the first place...

Do you put a seatbelt on your child?? or use an appropriate car seat?? why not protect them against disease that can seriously affect them or even kill..just my humble opinion...;)

mr.mickels

mr.mickels wrote: »

In actual fact, the CDC reports than over 80% of all cases of Polio in USA in the 1970's was caused by the polio vaccine itself and later declared that all but a few imported cases since were caused by the vaccine--and most of the imported cases occurred in fully immunized individuals!!!!

Talk about an abuse of statistics. :rolleyes:

There are two types of polio vaccines - IPV and OPV. IPV means inactive poliovirus vaccine, while OPV means oral poliovirus vaccine. IPV is inactive and therefore incapable of causing illness. OPV is derived from an active polio virus engineered to minimise the risk of causing illness, but it has been shown not to completely eliminate it.

OPV was used rather than IPV in the past. OPV was better at developing immunity, and it was cheaper and easier to administer in mass vaccination campaigns.

The 80% statistic for polio cases caused by the vaccine - the OPV vaccine - sounds interesting, but not as interesting as what it hides. The rate of infection was 1 for every 2.4 million doses, which was far lower than the rate of infection for unvaccinated people. In other words, OPV might not have been perfect, but it was a hell of a lot better than not vaccinating at all.

Since 2000 in the USA (2001 in Ireland) vaccination is with IPV, which is inactive and cannot cause the disease. In some countries in the developing world, OPV is still used for the reasons set out above - and rightly so.

mr.mickels wrote: »

There is alot I could say about the polio/salk vaccine....

I'm sure there is - but it would help if you would read up on the subject properly first.

As a counter to your misinformation about the position of the CDC, here is the CDC's current advice about polio and other vaccinations, as published in July 2010:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

The page is titled "What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?"

It's worth a read.

Hobbitfeet

cbyrd wrote: »

As a child i had measles mumps and rubella.. it has left me with hearing impairment from 7 years of chronic earaches headaches and throat infections.. a generally impaired immune system that means as i get older i will pick up more allergies to add to the 4 known ones that i have (one that causes annaphylaxis) i was lucky though.. the measles didn't leave me brain damaged or dead...

The thing about vaccines is they're a victim of their own success.. when you don't see the damage the disease can do you don't realise how important it became to eradicate the disease in the first place...

Do you put a seatbelt on your child?? or use an appropriate car seat?? why not protect them against disease that can seriously affect them or even kill..just my humble opinion...;)

Just wondering if you were vaccinated against these before you got them?

cbyrd

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Just wondering if you were vaccinated against these before you got them?

No i wasn't.. unfortunately i was out before the vaccine..:rolleyes:

i had mumps when i was 18 months this was followed about 4 months later by rubella that's when the earaches started.. measles when i was 4 which made them worse and i eventually had surgery when i was 8, to relieve the stress on the eardrum from all the scarring on my eardrums from abcesses bursting . . i missed over a year of school over 5 years. The pain is one of the biggest memories i have of childhood.. the restrictions .. no swimming, the antibiotics the painkillers,eardrops, nose drops, the hotwater bottles, sleepless nights having to wear a hat that covered my ears whenever i went out.. my left ear has less than 20% hearing and my left eye is weak..
I have 4 children and all have been vaccinated except one.. he's only 2 weeks old. . i wouldn't take a chance that it could happen to them

Hobbitfeet

cbyrd wrote: »

No i wasn't.. unfortunately i was out before the vaccine..:rolleyes:

i had mumps when i was 18 months this was followed about 4 months later by rubella that's when the earaches started.. measles when i was 4 which made them worse and i eventually had surgery when i was 8, to relieve the stress on the eardrum from all the scarring on my eardrums from abcesses bursting . . i missed over a year of school over 5 years. The pain is one of the biggest memories i have of childhood.. the restrictions .. no swimming, the antibiotics the painkillers,eardrops, nose drops, the hotwater bottles, sleepless nights having to wear a hat that covered my ears whenever i went out.. my left ear has less than 20% hearing and my left eye is weak..
I have 4 children and all have been vaccinated except one.. he's only 2 weeks old. . i wouldn't take a chance that it could happen to them

Thanks Would you mind if I asked if your parents had also had measles, mumps and rubella before conceiving you? Were you breastfed? If yes for how long?

cbyrd

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Thanks Would you mind if I asked if your parents had also had measles, mumps and rubella before conceiving you? Were you breastfed? If yes for how long?

I'm not sure about my parents having had m/m/r .. but i was breast fed for over a year.. i have 6 brothers we were all breastfed i was the only one who got measles mump or rubella.. i'm also the only girl :rolleyes: i'm also the only one who has allergy issues (not related) and auto-immune problems..