A parent attending In service training for teachers??

sullanefc

Hi all,

just looking for some advice. I attended an out of school (evening) in-service (run by my subject association) a few weeks ago and there was a parent of one of my leaving certs there, who is not a teacher. She was also at a similar in-service last year. I'm not sure I am comfortable asking questions at the in-service at the risk of sounding stupid.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

evolving_doors

Might be a teacher in another school!! its a free country I suppose but I was under the impression you had to be a teacher to attend, although subject associations aren't as strict as long as they pay their membership fees,,, I reckon your best form of defence is out and out attack,, meet them face to face and ask what school they teach in,,, also don't be afraid to give your two cent I'd discussions happen,,(read the curriculum/syllabus a few times, also exam reports),,, I bert it makes you feel wierd though if they re teaching their own offspring at home,, they have to be a teacher though don't they!!!!

gaeilgebeo

sullanefc wrote: »

Hi all,

just looking for some advice. I attended an out of school (evening) in-service (run by my subject association) a few weeks ago and there was a parent of one of my leaving certs there, who is not a teacher. She was also at a similar in-service last year. I'm not sure I am comfortable asking questions at the in-service at the risk of sounding stupid.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

In my opinion, unless the parent is a teacher, he/she has no business being at an in-service which is for "professional" development. :eek:

whydoibother?

Armelodie wrote: »

Might be a teacher in another school!! its a free country I suppose but I was under the impression you had to be a teacher to attend, although subject associations aren't as strict as long as they pay their membership fees,,, I reckon your best form of defence is out and out attack,, meet them face to face and ask what school they teach in,,, also don't be afraid to give your two cent I'd discussions happen,,(read the curriculum/syllabus a few times, also exam reports),,, I bert it makes you feel wierd though if they re teaching their own offspring at home,, they have to be a teacher though don't they!!!!

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but that's a very interesting point. Somebody who is home-schooling a child in preparation for state exams could say they want to understand the syllabus as well as a teacher. On the other hand, what if every parent in the country wants to turn up? Or even the kids themselves?

evolving_doors

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

In my opinion, unless the parent is a teacher, he/she has no business being at an in-service which is for "professional" development. :eek:

Ya its a bit odd, id definitely be making more enquiries,,, try checking their name on the teaching council website,, its a free country and theirs no law against attending a course if they let you in and take your money, but to my knowledge theres no law against wedding crashers either

sullanefc

Thanks for the replies. Just a couple of things. I know for a fact that the parent is not a qualified teacher, I have checked it out. As for home-schooling, well the student is a full time student at my school. I know the constitution says that the parent is the primary educator of a child, but I just find it strange that they are attending in service courses run by a "teacher" association.

I was going to email the subject association chairperson, but if the parent is suddenly asked to stop attending, am I causing hassle for myself?

evolving_doors

whydoibother? wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but that's a very interesting point. Somebody who is home-schooling a child in preparation for state exams could say they want to understand the syllabus as well as a teacher. On the other hand, what if every parent in the country wants to turn up? Or even the kids themselves?

Sure ya its great if parents are helping out at home, but from the ops point of view itd give me itch.kind of undermines the teacher as if to say they re not good enough,, I wouldn't feel so bad if the parent was going to every subject inservice, but just my own subject....then would raise heckles a little, but still its a free country!

whydoibother?

Armelodie wrote: »

Sure ya its great if parents are helping out at home, but from the ops point of view itd give me itch.kind of undermines the teacher as if to say they re not good enough,, I wouldn't feel so bad if the parent was going to every subject inservice, but just my own subject....then would raise heckles a little, but still its a free country!

Yeah, I can understand that. I'm not a teacher, but I do believe anybody doing any type of training for any job should be allowed to do it in an environment where they are comfortable and free to ask any question they need to.

mrboswell

It is a tough one. I'd complain to be honest. They are taking the place of qualified teacher for starters. Who is giving them the information about the inservice?

On the other hand you could consider that if a teacher lost their job and then later attending an inservice where a teacher who you know is not qualified in your subject(s) is attending inservice and is teaching the hours that you lost. It just sounds wrong when someone who shouldn't be there is there, what ever the circumstances.

Let us know how you proceed.

RealJohn

Firstly, if you're uncomfortable with it you should contact whoever's running the inservice, explain the situation and request that you not be scheduled to do the same inservice course as the parent in question (or any other non-teachers). You're entitled to feel comfortable taking part in a course for teachers without non-teachers getting involved.

That said, if that parent is paying to do the course, it might be harder to make the course organisers see it that way. If the parent is not paying for the course then they're taking up resources that were intended for teachers and whether or not teachers are taking advantage of that, it certainly shouldn't be tolerated.

I don't think it would bother me personally but I do feel it could be a question of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing if that parent starts questioning a teacher's methods without a proper understanding of how things are done.

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

its a free country!

You have written this in three posts on this thread and I really don't get your point. It is either appropriate for this parent to be there or it's not, i.e. they are either a qualified teacher who is a member of the subject association or they are not. That and not some vague rhetoric about it being a 'free country' (whatever that actually means) is the only arbiter of appropriateness in this situation, as I see it anyway.

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

You have written this in three posts on this thread and I really don't get your point. It is either appropriate for this parent to be there or it's not, i.e. they are either a qualified teacher who is a member of the subject association or they are not. That and not some vague rhetoric about it being a 'free country' (whatever that actually means) is the only arbiter of appropriateness in this situation, as I see it anyway.

Well if they took his money freely without any checking of his credentials then my point is that the person is free to turn up...

Did it state on the application form that it's for subject teachers only?
Did it ask on the application form what school the person works in?
If the person pays subs every year for subject association membership are they asked for details on their teaching?

Of course we don;t know for sure the answer to these but assuming the subject association didnt ask for any of these things then it's the associations fault rather than that of the parent attending.

SO what that actually means Rosita is that if person isn;t breaking any laws or contravening any of membership rules/application rules then technically they havn;t done anything wrong (in their eyes ). Sure the subject association have a few issues to sort out considering the issue is hindering the OP's experiences on the course,

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

assuming the subject association didnt ask for any of these things then it's the associations fault rather than that of the parent attending.

SO what that actually means Rosita is that if person isn;t breaking any laws or contravening any of membership rules/application rules then technically they havn;t done anything wrong (in their eyes ).

assuming the subject association didnt ask for any of these things then it's the associations fault rather than that of the parent attending.

It being the association's "fault" for not checking does not confer any rights on that parent to be there. That might explain how they ended up there but does not automatically confer membership or equal rights with the membership of the association on them, no more than getting into a country with a forged passport because the security takes its eye off the ball passport suddenly legitimises the passport.

SO what that actually means Rosita is that if person isn;t breaking any laws or contravening any of membership rules/application rules then technically they havn;t done anything wrong (in their eyes ).

It is irrelevant what they think "in their eyes" - they are either entitled to be there or they are not depending on their status regarding the subject association. Ignorance of the law/rules is usually no defence.

MathsManiac

Was this an in-service course funded by the DES, or was it just a course being run by the association for its members?

A lot of subject associations, despite perhaps having "teacher" in their titles, do not restrict membership to teachers. For example, the constitution of the Irish Maths Teachers Association states that: "1. All those interested in mathematics and mathematics education may apply for membership, subject to the approval of Council." (http://www.imta.ie/IMTA_Constitution.pdf)

If it was a DES-funded course, I'd be surprised if any non-teacher was eligible to attend, but you never know.

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

It being the association's "fault" for not checking does not confer any rights on that parent to be there. That might explain how they ended up there but does not automatically confer membership or equal rights with the membership of the association on them,

Have a look at Maths Maniac posting, it seems that some subject associations could be open to people interested in the subject aswell as teachers, so perhaps it could confer equal rights, that depends on the OP's associations charter though and i dont think it would be prudent for them to reveal which subject it is.

Rosita wrote: »

It is irrelevant what they think "in their eyes" - they are either entitled to be there or they are not depending on their status regarding the subject association. Ignorance of the law/rules is usually no defence.

I think it is relevant, if the person snuck in their then they shouldn't be there ,fair enough, but if they applied with full consent of the subject association in their eyes they're entitled to be there.

I still wouldn't like it myself though. I'm still a bit puzzled though, if this person isn;t a teacher then the level the course would be operating on would be fairly high, if I found myself sitting in on a course I had no involvement in as regards teaching then i'd make my excuses and exit fairly quick.

OP are you absolutely 100% certain this person has never been a teacher, isn;t involved in any way with curriculum development or the Dept of Ed, working privately in say a grinds school?
I know you said you were fairly certain (sorry for asking again) that they weren't qualified, could it be that they've just completed or in the process of completing a HDip.
I was also wondering if you've noticed how they're participating in the course, do they appear to know what's going on and engaging in the course? If I was in your shoes i'd be watching them like a hawk though.

The reason I;m asking is just I'd want to know for sure before I'd start asking questions...

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

I think it is relevant, if the person snuck in their then they shouldn't be there ,fair enough, but if they applied with full consent of the subject association in their eyes they're entitled to be there.

No they are not entitled to be there if they applied with the full consent of the subject association in their eyes. If they applied with the full consent of the subject association in the subject association's eyes, they are entitled to be there. But the idea that they could get in by some kind of default procedure - because their credentials are not checked or whatever - and that this confers some kind of entitlement on them is laughable.

I am speaking in the abstract here and in the actual case there might be a credible explanation other than the parent having an incredibly brass neck. Perhaps the person was a bona fide presence at the gathering but this would have nothing to do with it being a "free country" or the person themselves deeming themselves to be a legitimate presence "in their eyes". The only decision-maker in that instance is the subject association and not the individual.

TheDriver

I am involved in subject associations and we have had this. firstly its hard to establish if someone is not a teacher because there are a number who say unemployed/retired etc so its difficult. Next up, evening inservices are rarely full as teachers don't exactly come running. Lastly, its difficult for us to say no to someone who is sitting there and we're can't eject them from the room because we don't have an elaborate checking mechanism. Its difficult.
OP: I would take the bull by the horns, make it your business to approach them and joke around as to why they are there, use some line that you didn't realise they were a teacher and then isn't it great that they can help Johnny follow their stuff in school.
The parent should be delighted johnnys teacher is at courses.
And I have no problem asking questions at courses in front of anyone.

sullanefc

Armelodie wrote: »

OP are you absolutely 100% certain this person has never been a teacher, isn;t involved in any way with curriculum development or the Dept of Ed, working privately in say a grinds school?
I know you said you were fairly certain (sorry for asking again) that they weren't qualified, could it be that they've just completed or in the process of completing a HDip.
I was also wondering if you've noticed how they're participating in the course, do they appear to know what's going on and engaging in the course? If I was in your shoes i'd be watching them like a hawk though.

The reason I;m asking is just I'd want to know for sure before I'd start asking questions...

Sorry, haven't been online in a while. To answer a few questions raised:

1. The subject association runs this course free of charge, so there was no cost.

2. To my knowledge, the parent was not a teacher at any stage, but I could be wrong.

3. I don't know if this parent is a member of the association, but all courses are listed on the associations website, so you wouldn't have to be a member to know about them.

4. When filling in the sign in form, the parent put their school down as the school that I am teaching in. I saw it when I was signing in.

I haven't said anything to the association, I don't want to cause hassle or send complaining emails. I may say it to the organiser of the course if it happens again mind, as I think it is strange behaviour from a parent and it makes it the course uncomfortable to me.

sullanefc

TheDriver wrote: »

I am involved in subject associations and we have had this. firstly its hard to establish if someone is not a teacher because there are a number who say unemployed/retired etc so its difficult. Next up, evening inservices are rarely full as teachers don't exactly come running. Lastly, its difficult for us to say no to someone who is sitting there and we're can't eject them from the room because we don't have an elaborate checking mechanism. Its difficult.
OP: I would take the bull by the horns, make it your business to approach them and joke around as to why they are there, use some line that you didn't realise they were a teacher and then isn't it great that they can help Johnny follow their stuff in school.
The parent should be delighted johnnys teacher is at courses.
And I have no problem asking questions at courses in front of anyone.

Thanks for the reply. I actually spoke to this parent the first night I saw them at a course last year. She said she enjoyed the subject when she was at school herself and she just wanted to brush up on the subject as her daughter was taking the subject next year. 6 months later and the child is sitting in front of me and the parent is at the first night time inservice course this september just gone. I gave them a wide berth that night.

evolving_doors

Ok seems to me that if they put down your schools name then they are well and truly out to deceive, and also do have a brass neck. maybe after the course has finished you could make your concerns known as you have been put in an awkward situation, only problem is though if your subject association is open to non teachers also, then its a free country (as long as the person abides by the association rules)....

If you think about it, a situation could easily arise whereby this person may actually be doing the subject for the leaving cert and using your course as a free grind!!...

On the other hand!Would the situation be any different if say you did meet a parent of one of your own pupils on the course who was a teacher of the same subject in another school!!!

sullanefc

Armelodie wrote: »

On the other hand!Would the situation be any different if say you did meet a parent of one of your own pupils on the course who was a teacher of the same subject in another school!!!

That is a fair point. However, I think that a parent, who is also a teacher, may have a different perspective and a better understanding of the job than a parent who is not a teacher. I always give my all when teaching and I am confident in my abilities, but I fear some parents expect too much, and in some cases they expect miracles. I accept your point nonetheless.

evolving_doors

It could all be very benign but it does smell a but fishy though,, should be interesting to see how it pans out, I'd sill raise the issue or maybe send a query to the subject association at least though..just think what the parent may have thought if you hadn't attended!!!

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

Would the situation be any different if say you did meet a parent of one of your own pupils on the course who was a teacher of the same subject in another school!!!

Well of course the situation would be entirely different as in that case the teacher/parent would almost certainly be entitled to attend a course aimed at teachers of their subject. :rolleyes:

The entitlement and appropriateness of a non-teacher attending such a gathering and deceptively putting down a school name as if to imply that they are a teacher is quite a different matter. It is astonishing that you would try to draw an equivalence.

implausible

The issue is very simple here - the woman is obviously an over-involved pain in the ass, with too much time on her hands and who probably thinks that attending a few inservices will make her as knowledgeable as her child's teacher. If you don't raise attention to the fact that she shouldn't be there, she will wreck your head at (or before) the next parent-teacher meeting and try to deal with you as an equal, or even worse, a friend. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and I've come across parents like this before.

You could even be a bit underhand about getting rid of her - get the association to pretend that they contacted the school to verify her details.

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

Well of course the situation would be entirely different as in that case the teacher/parent would almost certainly be entitled to attend a course aimed at teachers of their subject. :rolleyes:

The entitlement and appropriateness of a non-teacher attending such a gathering and deceptively putting down a school name as if to imply that they are a teacher is quite a different matter. It is astonishing that you would try to draw an equivalence.

See op's response to my point. You must have missed it whilst rolling you eyes.I've also acknowledged the persons deception...

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

See op's response to my point. You must have missed it whilst rolling you eyes.I've also acknowledged the persons deception...

I didn't miss the OP's response to your point. I read it. Then I made a different response (not sure why I am expected to accept the OP's response as the only acceptable reply to you as you appear to imply). My response was that if someone is at an in-service as a teacher of the subject and as a member of the subject association, they are entitled to be there and where their kid goes to school is neither here nor there. No teacher could have grounds for complaint at their attendance even if it happens to coincide with theirs. Your introduction of that hypothetical point is completely irrelevant because the situation here is quite different despite the OP entertaining your curved ball.

And yes you have acknowledged the person's deception but follow up that acknowledgement with the little rider that "it could all be very benign". Consider the facts as we know them - the parent is not a teacher; not a member of the subject association; wrote lies on the registration form to gain access to the in-service; it happens to be the very same in-service that their kid's own teacher is attending - in what way do you think "it could be very benign"? Your continued equivocation on what appears to be quite inappropriate carry-on is strange.

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

I didn't miss the OP's response to your point. I read it. Then I made a different response (not sure why I am expected to accept the OP's response as the only acceptable reply to you as you appear to imply). My response was that if someone is at an in-service as a teacher of the subject and as a member of the subject association, they are entitled to be there and where their kid goes to school is neither here nor there. No teacher could have grounds for complaint at their attendance even if it happens to coincide with theirs. Your introduction of that hypothetical point is completely irrelevant because the situation here is quite different despite the OP entertaining your curved ball.

And yes you have acknowledged the person's deception but follow up that acknowledgement with the little rider that "it could all be very benign". Consider the facts as we know them - the parent is not a teacher; not a member of the subject association; wrote lies on the registration form to gain access to the in-service; it happens to be the very same in-service that their kid's own teacher is attending - in what way do you think "it could be very benign"? Your continued equivocation on what appears to be quite inappropriate carry-on is strange.

Basically Rosita I'm not out to defend the 'parent impostor' , the reason I posted in this forum in the first place was to put forward possible considerations/scenarios to the OP that may make them have a different perspective on how they would re-act or perceive the situation.

We know that really the op has full confidence in his own teaching, but they are wondering how to proceed with the situation. Why i said that 'it could be very benign' was because the op may never hear from the parent again, and just maybe the parent had a genuine interest in the subject (regardless of whether their child was a student or not). So if midway through the course the op decides to kick u a fuss it may make him appear insecure and also may be embarrassing for the parent who has to leave.

As you know yourself in teaching you pick your battles as regards 'inappropriate carry-on' otherwise you'd be a busy nervous wreck.

If I were in the OP's shoes really i'd giev them a "wide berth" and ride out the course and then at the end maybe have a word with the administrator about the parent.

If maybe Rosita you could for a change put forward a suggestion to the OP as to what to do or how to approach/consider the situation then maybe that would help you focus your attention away from my feeble irrelevant opinions.

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

If maybe Rosita you could for a change put forward a suggestion to the OP as to what to do or how to approach/consider the situation.

I would have thought this was obvious. Contact the subject association and tell them that there is a non-teacher masquerading as a teacher from a certain school who - as non-teacher - presumably is not a member of the subject association.

Let the subject association deal with the issue after that whatever way they see fit - and that might well be to stick their heads in the sand and do nothing but you cannot control that, but at least the matter will have been raised. That action is so obvious I'd have thought it hardly needed to be said.

nkay1985

Just came across this thread on the main page.

Are there rules that only allow teachers to attend these in service training sessions? If so, then the parent is obviously in violation of the rules. If not, she's doing nothing wrong. It's surely as simple as this isn't it? If she's not in the wrong and it's causing discomfort, then that's not her problem really. If she is in the wrong, then she really shouldn't be there and the teacher in question would be right to feel aggrieved.

evolving_doors

nkay1985 wrote: »

Just came across this thread on the main page.

Are there rules that only allow teachers to attend these in service training sessions? If so, then the parent is obviously in violation of the rules. If not, she's doing nothing wrong. It's surely as simple as this isn't it? If she's not in the wrong and it's causing discomfort, then that's not her problem really. If she is in the wrong, then she really shouldn't be there and the teacher in question would be right to feel aggrieved.

That's the problem... There has been no mention of what the subject association charter states as regards membership, the fact that the person has put down the op's school name may not necessarily preclude them from attending.

nkay1985

Armelodie wrote: »

That's the problem... There has been no mention of what the subject association charter states as regards membership, the fact that the person has put down the op's school name may not necessarily preclude them from attending.

Yeah, very interesting. I'm sure the OP will know whether you need to be a teacher or not to be a member, or would certainly be able to find out.

evolving_doors

nkay1985 wrote: »

Yeah, very interesting. I'm sure the OP will know whether you need to be a teacher or not to be a member, or would certainly be able to find out.

It's tricky enough to find out without the associations charter to hand, even the course administrator may not know. If nobody knows then you can't really ask someone to leave, as another poster stated the maths association is open to non teachers and anyone interested in maths education. Although throwing down a fake school isn;t really the way to go.. I wonder if the parent had left the space blank would they have been let do the course?

I'd be interested to know if the parent was able to keep up with the pace of the course and how it relates to the curriculum. It'd all be theoretical though if they've no teaching background.