On Entry Fees, Prize Money, The Community Pot and more.

Owwmykneecap

aka, the bi monthly **** stirring thread.

Where are we going as a community? What do we need to head there and what direction is the path?

I believe we need to invest. In more equipment, in better equipment, in supplying the tournaments further afield, in advertising, in planning for a stream, and ultimately in finally holding a national annual tournament and inviting the legions of foreigners surely dying for an authentic Guinness and arse whopping.

I think our events need to take more money, not for profit, but for the community.

I say this as someone who was originally opposed to the buying of monitors in the first place. I thought it was going to be messy and awkward, I've been proven wrong. Sorry Orim. That said, I do think some formal rules, a treasury system would be a good think, iirc AJ suggested something along those lines in times past.

I also think our events may be giving away too much prize money, but note I say this as someone who will likely not be on the receiving end of an inferno victory.

The price is another issue, with there being a €15 tournaments on so often, plus travel and expenses, people may have to pick and choose what they attend, to a greater extent than before.


Opinions? Have at you!

Doctor DooM

Well, as a person who's part of the committee we have a bit of money, not sure exactly how much. I currently have 2 priorities in mind.

1) A lagless set up or as near to as possible for the "serious" matches

2) I would like to get an xbox that we can load all the necessary dlc for every game onto so we always have one at an event that can handle any eventuality.

These two I consider an absolute priority.


The only events which pay into the kitty AFAIK are DOC and Inferno, which are also the only two who really benefit from them.

As for streaming, if we want to do that we really need to buy a LEGAL copy of wirecast. That's 450 dollars. Unlike everything AV-ey so far, that's not an amount I can fork out right now on a whim.

I can stream right now with the gear we currently have but it will be no where near the quality people will want. I also don't think there's a decent alternative to wirecast (I've been looking).

Also if we do that I really will need a "Team Doomy" to look after it. There's logistical work involved, always having someone checking the laptop, and always having people ready to talk.

IF people want to go down that route, it will take work but I am more than willing to put money and time into it, but I will need other people to do so too (so far I have been perfectly happy to trundle along under my own steam because all the gears mine and I do what I like with it. This would change things a little).

Sairus

I've always found prize money an awkward subject. Few people actually come to the tournaments for prizes because realistically there's a top twenty or so that even have a chance at getting it. Obviously trimming the prize money down to build up the community fund is good from those people's point of view, but it is really fair to lessen the rewards for the winners just because they're better than everyone else?

I would personally be in favour of capping the prize money at a certain amount.
The last Inferno was something like €160 for 1st place. If the total prize pool is capped at €250, then that's €150 for 1st, €75 for second and €25 for 3rd.
That's still a large whack of money for the winner, third still gets more than their entry fee back and in the case of a massive turnout a sizeable amount of money can be put away into a community fund.

UberPrinny_Baal

A community Xbox (or Xboxes) might be interesting. Sairus' absense was pretty noticable at last Inferno, with how few set-ups we had. Which was pathetic given the giant turnout.

Forget having a shot at the prize money, I don't even expect to get out of groups.
I'd have been happy to leave after my group matches too (stuff to do), but there were so few machines that it would have screwed over the rest of the tournament, so I hung around.

bush

I think a monitor is far more important to buy than xbox. People can easily bring xboxes with all the dlc but not many can bring a monitor.

chopperbyrne

Not sure of the exact amount we have now, but it's about €400.

That's enough to buy two Evo monitors and cover shipping.

We'd also need two power converters.

If anyone can find the Evo monitor for sale at a reasonable price in Europe, then we could save a bit of cash on shipping and converters.

We'd have to be sure the EU version is the same as the US one though.

K.O.Kiki

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Not sure of the exact amount we have now, but it's about €400.

That's enough to buy two Evo monitors and cover shipping.

We'd also need two power converters.

If anyone can find the Evo monitor for sale at a reasonable price in Europe, then we could save a bit of cash on shipping and converters.

We'd have to be sure the EU version is the same as the US one though.

You don't need power converters for monitors.

Also, don't get hung up on buying "the" Evo monitor.
Set a budget, read up reviews, wait if prices are too high.

bush

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-027-AS&tool=3

Been looking up monitors, might get one myself. This is the evo monitor replacement apparently. Its mentioned on this thread as being good.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database.145141/

the_syco

chopperbyrne wrote: »

If anyone can find the Evo monitor for sale at a reasonable price in Europe, then we could save a bit of cash on shipping and converters.

Seen a 24" VH236H on amazon.co.uk on sale from a shop called "TechGoodsWorld" for £140

UberPrinny_Baal

I dunno, I feel like this is a "Practical vs Luxury" concern thing.

Having Lagless monitors for the "Serious" matches would be nice; but you're not going to get to the serious matches if the tournament runs past the rental time for the venue because there weren't enough set-ups.

We need set-ups, we only want lagless monitors to feel more legit/stop the bitching.

Controversial solution: Have the tournament organisers blackmail the scene into taking ownership of their events, or not getting their luxury things

Decide what the:

• Minimum (get through the tourney in the venue rental time)
• Ideal (get through the tourney in the time you'ld like)
• Maximum (limited only I think by tables/power outlets)

number of set-ups required are per tournament, and seek out commitments in advance (like Voa does).

If there aren't enough, spend the community money on another Xbox.

Rinse and repeat until people either start bringing stuff, or we have all the Xboxes we could ever want.

Then start saving for that lagless monitor.

Speed Boat

We should get monitors. It seems apparent that people are far more averse to lugging a monitor around then their console.

If we purchase more consoles we still won't have the monitors to play on them as people just don't seem to want to bring them.

ayjayirl

bush wrote: »

I think a monitor is far more important to buy than xbox. People can easily bring xboxes with all the dlc but not many can bring a monitor.

yet they don't (at least not everyone)....... this is the point...


If there is 400 quid in the 'pot' then why not get 1 monitor and 1 xbox? The TV/monitor Bush linked up is about 200 quid and you can get a 250g xbox for 200 in HMV ATM. Just a thought. Start to solve both problems.

I think the point on prize money amount is the most important one anyway. With a fixed prize pool you could then have a situation whereby you are buying a monitor/xbox for the community and future events on a regular enough basis (every quarter could yield one of each). Without doing that, it takes longer. This would also aid in the purchasing of other recording equip/software. I do not believe for one second that if we did that, we would limit numbers or remove incentive to go. Whilst winning money is nice (I wouldn't know when it comes to SF), it isn't the primary motivator for going. IMO there were at least 8-10 people at the last inferno with a realistic shot of winning it (until Hound said NO!). Was that for the money? I don't think so. I agree with Sai, setting a prize pool limit and putting the rest into the community is what needs to happen at this point. There are a couple of things going to be happening over the next year that will benefit greatly from having equipment to use. I am planning the next qualifier for Evo for next year and having 8 community setups by then would be unbelievably brilliant.

All in all, the last year has been good and has progressed on from last. Hope this year will move it on a little further again. Just like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has organised events, brought equipment, recorded and uploaded etc etc. Without that, nothing would have happened.
Aj

bush

ayjayirl wrote: »

yet they don't....... this is the point

How often is there a shortage of consoles? The majority of times ive brought a console i couldnt even use it.

ayjayirl

bush wrote: »

How often is there a shortage of consoles? The majority of times ive brought a console i couldnt even use it.

So that means????? I have said we need both and I think that could be easily done if we act correctly and in a timely manner. What I'm trying to get at is that whilst it is necessary for people to bring both consoles and monitor (to a lesser degree) now, we should be putting things in place to say by March of next year, every tourney can take advatange of 6 full sets, owned by the community for the comm..... You see where I am going with this. This is most definitely achievable if we structure the money spend properly.

TBH, this sounds like an executive decision for organisers and committee.

bush

ayjayirl wrote: »

So that means????? I have said we need both and I think that could be easily done if we act correctly and in a timely manner. What I'm trying to get at is that whilst it is necessary for people to bring both consoles and monitor (to a lesser degree) now, we should be putting things in place to say by March of next year, every tourney can take advatange of 6 full sets, owned by the community for the comm..... You see where I am going with this. This is most definitely achievable if we structure the money spend properly.

TBH, this sounds like an executive decision for organisers and committee.

Well no, thats not what you said. You edited after I posted.

ayjayirl

bush wrote: »

Well no, thats not what you said. You edited after I posted.

I edited before I read your reply. Apologies. Too quick for me...

Point still stands

Owwmykneecap

I thought last night that this topic wasn't going to get any replies, I am heartened by the response.

DooM:

If your hauppage etc is on the way out, the community money should be spent on a replacement as priority no.1

Streaming: Xspilt is currently free in beta, and will be 70% off at launch to beat testers. whatever that means.

I was playing around with it last night, it's user friendly, can do some nice stuff.

Sairus: I completely agree with your idea of capping prize money. The prizes would still be nice, and the events would be more enjoyable for all by having more/better equip.


Priority of purchases in my opinion:

0) - Recording equip
1) - Monitors
2) - Advertising
3) - Consoles and games.
4) - Miscellaneous equip: Converters etc.

super extra bonus round) - Build up a fund for the rental of a hotel conference room for our first big event sometime in the not to distant future.

Azza

Apparantly with regards monitors, this model has the lowest reported input lag of any monitor.

http://www.komplett.ie/Komplett/product/ZKB_04RAND/16_MONITOR/01_MONITOR/productdetails/20096114/BenQ_24_%2823_6_%29_XL2410T_LCD_3D_HDMI_DVI/9H_L5NLB_QBE/default.aspx


Input lag was typically between 10-20ms with occasional spikes to 40ms. Average of 20ms.

With instant mod enabled input lag average 5.6ms and was typically between 0-10ms with occasional spikes to 20ms.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/benq_xl2410t.htm

Seen it on ebay for €301 before shipping from the uk.

Neeknak

http://www.weseller.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4910&zenid=ibiob1am2gjouovus5d6v04j20

£229 exc VAT

I might pick one of these up myself for my new game room.

UberPrinny_Baal

Azza wrote: »

Apparantly with regards monitors, this model has the lowest reported input lag of any monitor..

I don't agree with investing the community fund in assuaging everyones' fear of The Lag Boogeyman. The Exchange monitors are by far the least laggy thing I've ever tested with the RB2 guitar.

But if this is the way that things go, I definitely don't agree with spending money on something with "the lowest reported lag"; as people will still bitch that there is lag (always); and we're back at square one (albeit with less community money).

If the community fund HAS to be spent on eliminating lag, get a 2nd hand CRT off adverts.ie

http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/q_crt/sortby_best_match-desc/

It won't cost as much, and we'll legally be allowed to shoot anyone who still moans at that point.

bush

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I don't agree with investing the community fund in assuaging everyone's fear of The Lag Boogeyman. The Exchange monitors are by far the least laggy thing I've ever tested with the RB2 guitar.

But if this is the way that things go, I definitely don't agree with spending money on something with "the lowest reported lag"; as people will still bitch that there is lag (always); and we're back at square one (albeit with less community money).

Ye people would probably still moan about the 5.6 ms of lag even though the tv they play on home is probably 10 times laggier and they play with online lag on top of that.
I dunno if its worth paying almost 200 quid more for that monitor over the one I posted for the sake of 1.4ms of less lag.

UberPrinny_Baal

bush wrote: »

Ye people would probably still moan about the 5.6 ms of lag even though the tv they play on home is probably 10 times laggier and they play with online lag on top of that.

I think that's the core of the issue. The lag isn't worse. It's probably better. The problem people have is simply that it's different.

Playing at the Exchange feels really weird to me compared to playing at home. Both set-ups have been tested for lag.

The result?

The TV I have at home is a laggy piece of crap :pac:

K.O.Kiki

Recording equipment > XBL account with all games > monitors > converters.

Regarding converters, while everyone seems happy to lend their sticks, BUY YOUR OWN PAD CONVERTER.

If you don't know which one to get, post up.

Owwmykneecap

I think one stock converter of each type would be good for any new players to use.

Anyone not new without a converter... There is a special circle of hell reserved for your kind.

spacenugget

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I think that's the core of the issue. The lag isn't worse. It's probably better. The problem people have is simply that it's different.

Playing at the Exchange feels really weird to me compared to playing at home. Both set-ups have been tested for lag.

The result?

The TV I have at home is a laggy piece of crap :pac:

This. I honestly got knocked for 6 when I realised how much of a difference there was.
It wasnt the monitors being laggy, it was the opposite, unknown to me I've been playing on a laggy tv. Going by the monitors that were at inferno/exchange a very laggy tv.

In the end its a good thing though, Im swapping my telly for the CRT thats in the house and adjusting, at least now I know that input/hd lag isnt some imaginary excuse and actually can make a huge difference. :)

Doyler01

Does the recording setup cause lag or not? At inferno the recording TV got the most complaints even tho all 4 TVs were the same.

I'd like to see the community money go towards a new monitor and maybe new lag free recording equipment if the current setup can cause lag.

Doctor DooM

It 100% does not cause lag. I delibrately went out of my way to buy a lagless set up.

Nutrient

Gamestop are doing a deal with xboxs that cost €150 with a 1 year guarantee if that's what we need

I guess for which ever item is needed more we could do a poll?

Democracy is a fair system

But w/e just a suggestion, Xbox's are not in short supply, it's reluctant people who aren't willing to bring their console in case it gets damaged which is fully understandable, but commitments gotta be made

It is a "Community" after all:P

Doctor DooM

A group of five people were democratically voted to look after the money.

Polls are way too slow for these things.

Sairus

Doctor DooM wrote: »

A group of five people were democratically voted to look after the money.

Polls are way too slow for these things.

I learned my lesson with the RS.ie naming thread.
Polls... never again. :pac:

Sagat06

To be honest all the discussion is pointless...that was the point of the vote for the 'members of the board'. I have no doubt they sit there most evening and just talk about this stuff! The last tournament I was at I was told that money had been spent on new monitors. I was happy with that. My opinion wasnt asked for or needed and they still managed to do something constructive.

I do agree with capping the prize money, or at least take a certain percentage of the gate towards community funding. It breaks my tight fisted little heart to think of the amount of money certain members have put forward themselves for community stuff.