backbiting at work has reached management

LegacyUser

i work in an office environment with 12 women, i'm male, my boss called me into the office today and said that he's hearing stories about me, i'm not around when needed, no body knows who i report to, no one knows where i do be or what i do

I do a different job than the rest in the office, i'm in and out, up and down, etc, znd i;m under a different manager than they are.

my work is 5 days per week, for 2 days per week there is nothing for me to do and 3 days there is work, i'm trying to be as vauge as possible, sorry

i'm a permanent full time member of staff in a private institution

i expalined that the work is always done, he said that there was never a complaint about my work, he's hearing "break time" comments said about me; people questioning what i do, etc

i said my job is different to theirs, i do'nt know what they do either, they do'nt see what happens behind the scenes, sometime i leave early toget the bus but i'm in early or make it up some other way.

i feel that there is a lot of jeleously towards me and as i've a bit of free time on my hands; this was the case for the past 8 years

i've told my boss to investigate or i'll get my solicitor to write a letter

i assume no one will put anything in writing; if its verbal does he have to tell me who make the comments is it valid if its verbal or does it have to be in writing and signed

its getting really stressful knowing that someone is nice to my face and then stabbing me in the back

Eoin

Working_Man wrote: »

i work in an office environment with 12 women, i'm male, my boss called me into the office today and said that he's hearing stories about me, i'm not around when needed, no body knows who i report to, no one knows where i do be or what i do

I do a different job than the rest in the office, i'm in and out, up and down, etc, znd i;m under a different manager than they are.

my work is 5 days per week, for 2 days per week there is nothing for me to do and 3 days there is work, i'm trying to be as vauge as possible, sorry

i'm a permanent full time member of staff in a private institution

i expalined that the work is always done, he said that there was never a complaint about my work, he's hearing "break time" comments said about me; people questioning what i do, etc

i said my job is different to theirs, i do'nt know what they do either, they do'nt see what happens behind the scenes, sometime i leave early toget the bus but i'm in early or make it up some other way.

i feel that there is a lot of jeleously towards me and as i've a bit of free time on my hands; this was the case for the past 8 years

i've told my boss to investigate or i'll get my solicitor to write a letter

i assume no one will put anything in writing; if its verbal does he have to tell me who make the comments is it valid if its verbal or does it have to be in writing and signed

its getting really stressful knowing that someone is nice to my face and then stabbing me in the back

First off, I think that "telling" your boss to investigate and threatening to get a solicitor involved seems a bit premature.

You need to establish what exactly your boss is saying to you. If you are being disciplined, then under the principles of natural justice you've the right to full disclosure of what the complaint is so you can argue your case.

If you're not being disciplined, then you need to find out what exactly your boss is telling you or asking you to do. Could he be trying to say that he knows you're doing your job, he has no problems with your performance - but maybe there's room to be more transparent in what you're doing day to day?

tatli_lokma

just my two cents on this, which may not be helpful to you, but here it is.
You admit yourself that you basically are stretching a part time job into a full time one and have 2 days a week where you have nothing to do. Now in a lot of teams this would cause friction. The fact you report to someone else probably only makes it worse.

Put yourself in the situation of the others - possibly they are flat out working trying to get their duties done in their hours, and yet they see you basically on the doss two days out of five. The fact you mention 'break times' was brought up suggests that perhaps it looks like you are buggering off having breaks all day while people are hardly getting 5 mins free. With the way job opportunities are, people very easily take offence when they feel others are not pulling their weight when people are struggling on the dole. Another thing could be that someone was repremanded for taking too long on a break, or not being where they were expected to be and as often happens, in retaliation they answered "but working_man is on a permanent break and sure no one even knows what he does half the time"

Perhaps you need to be a bit more aware of the others in your office, regardless of them being on a different team, they are still your co-workers. Don't draw attention to yourself as being a dosser. Be where you are supposed to be, don't draw attention to the fact that at times you literally have nothing to do. You say yourself it might be jealousy based, and it may well be, but perhaps you should be a bit more sensitive to other peoples situations.

In all honesty, I know myself I would be a bit irked at someone who got paid for 5 days work but in reality only worked 3 while I am killing myself to get my work done in my given time. Especially if I thought someone was rubbing it in that they have free time - I'd be thinking to myself that f*&%er is always on the doss, how does he get away with it?

the_syco

Working_Man wrote: »

i expalined that the work is always done, he said that there was never a complaint about my work, he's hearing "break time" comments said about me; people questioning what i do, etc

Be careful about the threats. He told you the facts, and you threatened him with your solicitor. Next time he'll remember the legal threats, and not inform you until sh|t hits the fan, and you get a written warning for taking too many breaks. You not having anything to do has nothing to do with it. Mention it, and your days may get cut. I'd advise you to apologize for the outburst, and smooth bridges with him; he may be the last person in your office on your side.

Milk & Honey

Begrudgery is the national sport. To avoid being the victim, you have to go to elaborate lengths to show that you are not having a better time than anyone else, that you have it hard. You need to talk about the awful time you were having when you were missed, the bad aspects of your job etc.

krd

Working_Man wrote: »

i work in an office environment with 12 women, i'm male, my boss called me into the office today and said that he's hearing stories about me, i'm not around when needed, no body knows who i report to, no one knows where i do be or what i do

One man in an office of 12 Irish women. It actually sounds like hell.

I'm not saying this out boorish chauvinism. Irish women have can have their own absurd flavour of sexism. Like they might think a man who works in an office (in a woman's job) is a terrifying sexual deviant - where a proper man, should be riding around in a van with buckets and shovels.

One of the many reasons I dislike my mother. In her job, I won't say what it was, there was just one man. And my mother and the other women forced him out. Something they were a little proud of. It's a long and complicated story. In the end, it came down to him being a man.

My mother was an intelligent woman. (Don't take that as me implying she was a good person - she wasn't). She would call herself a feminist. She had a theory about work places - she believed they should actually be segregated on gender lines. That may sound like a really wacky idea - but look at the world around you. Although women in management roles is something really common today, if you got back 20 or 30 years ago, it wasn't that common. A typical office or textile factory, would employ mostly women - but they would be managed by men. And it was the same for schools - more women would be teachers but positions like principle would be nearly exclusively held by men.

My mother's feminist Utopia, would be that everything should remain as it is in terms of gender segregation in the workplace - even rolling back the clock to a time when you couldn't have a male nurse. BUT....Instead of women being managed by men, women would be exclusively managed by other women.

And that would be how many women would feel........Simply because they're like that.

tatli_lokma

krd wrote: »

One man in an office of 12 Irish women. It actually sounds like hell.

I'm not saying this out boorish chauvinism. Irish women have can have their own absurd flavour of sexism. Like they might think a man who works in an office (in a woman's job) is a terrifying sexual deviant - where a proper man, should be riding around in a van with buckets and shovels.

One of the many reasons I dislike my mother. In her job, I won't say what it was, there was just one man. And my mother and the other women forced him out. Something they were a little proud of. It's a long and complicated story. In the end, it came down to him being a man.

My mother was an intelligent woman. (Don't take that as me implying she was a good person - she wasn't). She would call herself a feminist. She had a theory about work places - she believed they should actually be segregated on gender lines. That may sound like a really wacky idea - but look at the world around you. Although women in management roles is something really common today, if you got back 20 or 30 years ago, it wasn't that common. A typical office or textile factory, would employ mostly women - but they would be managed by men. And it was the same for schools - more women would be teachers but positions like principle would be nearly exclusively held by men.

My mother's feminist Utopia, would be that everything should remain as it is in terms of gender segregation in the workplace - even rolling back the clock to a time when you couldn't have a male nurse. BUT....Instead of women being managed by men, women would be exclusively managed by other women.

And that would be how many women would feel........Simply because they're like that.

that is the biggest load of Bull SH!T I have ever heard. Take your mammy issues to the personal issues forum and leave your absurd views on womens attitude to men in work in the 50's! based on your HUGE sample of, erm one person, your mad (and by your own estimation wacky and not very nice) mother you deduce that women in Ireland want segregation of the work place and think all men need to work in manual labour or be a manager to be a real man! you are on a different planet mate!

I work in an office, there are men there who do desk jobs. Makes not one iota of difference to me. Couldn't care less. I don't think men who are in admin or PA or similar roles as a sexual deviant and I don't know ANYONE else who would think so either!

And its not begrudgery to get the hump when you work your ass off and see someone else literally taking the p!ss on a daily basis.

And I might add, that if his company is like a huge proportion of Irish businesses, working_man is probably getting paid more than his female counterparts, so yeah, they probably do have the hump if they feel they are working twice as hard as him while he flaunts his cushy job in their faces. the fact that the other people in the office are primarily women has little to do with the situation IMO - you can't assume they only complain because they are women, I'm sure there would be plenty of blokes who would complain in the same situation. The number of women in this work place is probably irrelevant to the issue and working_man is just looking for reasons to put it down to women's bitchiness rather than possibly his own blasé attitude to work.

krd

Little Ted wrote: »

that is the biggest load of Bull SH!T I have ever heard. Take your mammy issues to the personal issues forum and leave your absurd views on womens attitude to men in work in the 50's! based on your HUGE sample of, erm one person, your mad (and by your own estimation wacky and not very nice) mother you deduce that women in Ireland want segregation of the work place and think all men need to work in manual labour or be a manager to be a real man! you are on a different planet mate!

I wasn't talking about my attitude to women. I just used my mother as an example. Her and her colleagues forced their sole male colleague out of work. It's a long story. It wasn't in the 1950s. And it did come down his gender.

I work in an office, there are men there who do desk jobs. Makes not one iota of difference to me. Couldn't care less. I don't think men who are in admin or PA or similar roles as a sexual deviant and I don't know ANYONE else who would think so either!

And that is you. If you think your opinions and the way you see the world is the same as everyone else's, then you're being..... a little thick.

And its not begrudgery to get the hump when you work your ass off and see someone else literally taking the p!ss on a daily basis.

Get over it. Some people have jobs, where they don't do very much for most of the time, BUT they have an important task that absolutely has to be done by them, and done properly. And if they do that job properly, it cuts the amount of work down - better than flaying around, activity for the sake of activity.

And I might add, that if his company is like a huge proportion of Irish businesses, working_man is probably getting paid more than his female counterparts, so yeah, they probably do have the hump if they feel they are working twice as hard as him while he flaunts his cushy job in their faces.

Wait a second........I thought you said that only happened in the 1950s.

the fact that the other people in the office are primarily women has little to do with the situation IMO

You don't know that, I don't know that. I have my suspicions. And you have yours.

- you can't assume they only complain because they are women, I'm sure there would be plenty of blokes who would complain in the same situation.

They might.

The number of women in this work place is probably irrelevant to the issue and working_man is just looking for reasons to put it down to women's bitchiness rather than possibly his own blasé attitude to work.

To really know what's going, you or I, would need to spend a few weeks in that office.

tatli_lokma

krd wrote: »

I wasn't talking about my attitude to women. I just used my mother as an example. Her and her colleagues forced their sole male colleague out of work. It's a long story. It wasn't in the 1950s. And it did come down his gender.

krd wrote: »

And that is you. If you think your opinions and the way you see the world is the same as everyone else's, then you're being..... a little thick.

to use your own logic, to use your mother as the main example for your reasoning, when you admit yourself that a) your mum isn't a very nice person, b) is sexist and has wacky ideas and c) that it is a long story and more is involved to the situation, is "a little thick". If you think what your mum did is an indication of how the majority of women behave or act is very thick. I have worked in offices for over 10 years, and I have never ever come accross anyone who would behave as your mother did.

krd wrote: »

Get over it. Some people have jobs, where they don't do very much for most of the time, BUT they have an important task that absolutely has to be done by them, and done properly. And if they do that job properly, it cuts the amount of work down - better than flaying around, activity for the sake of activity.

I have nothing to get over. I know that quantity of work is not equal to quality of work. I never said faff around being busy for the sake of it. I suggested that rather than obviously rubbing peoples noses in it it would be better for workplace relations to be discreet about the fact that you often have nothing to do and get paid to be there doing nothing when others are possibly a) breaking their arse to keep a job or b) have people at home who have no job while someone takes a full time job which by there own admission could reasonably be done on a part time basis. A little sensitivity to how your actions are perceived by your workmates goes a long long way.

krd wrote: »

Wait a second........I thought you said that only happened in the 1950s. .

No, read my post. I said that your opinion that women want segregation of the sexes and men and womens jobs was based in the 50's. The fact that women regularly get paid less than male counterparts is a seperate issue and does go on and with regularity. It is not always obviously done, but it is done and I am sure many women would testify to that fact.

krd wrote: »

You don't know that, I don't know that. I have my suspicions. And you have yours..

krd wrote: »

To really know what's going, you or I, would need to spend a few weeks in that office.

exactly, but you're the one making sweeping statements about the women he works with being sexist and wanting to cause trouble for him because all women have this bizarre attitude to men in 'womens' jobs. I think my suspicions are more realistic to the facts as they are given - yours are based on some warped view you have of women in the work place which is due to your mother. Not exactly an ideal example upon which to base your opinions on the rest of the world of work or how all women behave in work.


You have sprouted a load of nonsense.

In my years of work, and having experience in dealing with HR issues I have learned that generally, even when people have a genuine grievance in how they are treated, there is still always an element of taking personal responsibilty for how you behave and react to the situation.

Before you jump to the conclusion that you are being targeted or bitched about, I always suggest taking on board some of the comments, taking a look at your own behaviour and then assessing the situation. It may be that inadvertantly you have put someones nose out of joint, you have been insensitive or you have not realised how your actions are perceived by others. If you are not prepared to acknowledge this then you should consider a job where you can work alone and not with colleagues.

My advice all along is that OP consider how his behaviour appears to others and consider the possibility that he is not helping himself in this situation before jumping to the conclusion that all the women are being bitchy and ganging up on him cos he has it handy.

Eoin

None of this sounds very helpful to the op. Please take this argument elsewhere.

nothing

Working_man, I previously worked in an office which was mainly women and there was a man doing a particular area of the work. He was only there a few days a week, and he did little to no work in that time, taking up to 3 hour "lunch" breaks, leaving early, showing up late, and barely even doing the work he was paid to do, and tbh it was mightily frustrating.

In that case, no one ever went to the manager, but there was a lot of bitching about it behind his back, purely because he was liked as a person, but not as a work colleague. It was certainly not good for moral.

My only suggestion would be not to take the piss when you're in, it's none of their business what work you do if it's not connected with theirs, but if you're supposed to be there 5 days a week, and to be working 5 days a week, then perhaps you should check that you are doing everything you're supposed to be doing, and if so, perhaps offer to help out with other work if you find yourself at a loose end for 2 days.

krd

Little Ted wrote: »

No, read my post. I said that your opinion that women want segregation of the sexes and men and womens jobs was based in the 50's.

Some women really do not like the company of men. (And I'm not talking about lesbians either). They don't like going to the pub with them - they feel really uncomfortable and think it's weird to have a man sitting with a group of women. They don't like working with men - they feel uncomfortable.

And the same can be said for a lot of men. And this is the way a lot of men and women want the world to be. They think anyone who would want it to be different is really weird.

When people are recruiting for some businesses they sometimes try to make sure only to employ women for a particular job (so they'll all get on together - and they might consider the job womenly and wouldn't be comfortable having a man doing it). Do you seriously think, when you see an office and it's all women it's some kind of chance.

Some jobs are completely staked out by women. I have only ever met one man who worked in human resources. And it can be a really well paid job - but most people (even if they won't acknowledge it openly - would think any man who was trying to get into it would be a fool - the door is firmly closed)

It's nothing to do with women having a different set of "soft skills". It's down to the dominant view of the roles of gender in society. Manly jobs, Womenly jobs, etc. Manly men, and womenly women. Anyone else is just weird.

The most important factor, in getting a job, any job, is not your qualifications and experience. It's how you are going to "fit in". If they want a young womanly woman, to do the payroll - or some clerical faffing about in an office. They will hire a young, womanly, woman for that job. They wouldn't even entertain a young manly man for the job. Nothing to do with "skills". They just wouldn't fit in. It would be too weird.

That is the world. And you can't change it - if most people want to keep it that way, or even want to turn the clock back.

The fact that women regularly get paid less than male counterparts is a seperate issue and does go on and with regularity.

How can you see it as a separate issue?

I would see it as all connected.

It is not always obviously done, but it is done and I am sure many women would testify to that fact.

I'm sure they would testify to that. You'd want to wearing blinkers and be living fairyland to miss it.

exactly, but you're the one making sweeping statements about the women he works with being sexist and wanting to cause trouble for him because all women have this bizarre attitude to men in 'womens' jobs.

I'm very sorry. I forgot. Woman are the nurturers and carers. They never do anything mean or sneaky. I've never met a mean woman in my entire life.

I have worked with bitchy bullying women. BUT it must have been a hallucination.

I think my suspicions are more realistic to the facts as they are given - yours are based on some warped view you have of women in the work place which is due to your mother.

No, it's due to experience with the people I have worked with.

Not exactly an ideal example upon which to base your opinions on the rest of the world of work or how all women behave in work.

It's like this, some women are like adults - and some are like school children. It varies from place to place, what the hiring preference is like. You either see a certain type of woman as a problem, or precisely the kind of woman you want to hire. You might want an office where everything is open and grown up. Or you want one where everything is flaky and there's loads of passive aggression. Whatever the manager feels is more "normal".

In my years of work, and having experience in dealing with HR issues I have learned that generally, even when people have a genuine grievance in how they are treated, there is still always an element of taking personal responsibilty for how you behave and react to the situation.

Of course, HR are always right. If you try to defend yourself - you get marked down as argumentative.

When I was young and naieve, I was once pulled in for a HR meeting. And it went something like:

"We've heard complaints about you"
Me in shock and genuine concern "From who?"
"We can't tell you"
"About what?"
"We can't tell you"
"Well if you can't tell me, how can know what I've done wrong?"
"You're being argumentative"
"I'm not"
"You're being argumentative" - obviously I've just said I'm not to a manager, so I am.
"Well you have to tell me something?"
"You don't understand how it works in an office - I'm going to give you an written warning"

It may be that inadvertantly you have put someones nose out of joint, you have been insensitive or you have not realised how your actions are perceived by others.

You can "inadvertently" put someone's nose out of joint just by breathing. They just don't like the look of you. People are stupid. They take one look at someone they're working with and create an elaborate fantasy about their lives and personality.

If you are not prepared to acknowledge this then you should consider a job where you can work alone and not with colleagues.

If you can't fit in, go on the dole or sell scratch cards on the street.

If you're being bullied at school - then maybe you shouldn't have "friends". Learn to spend your life alone. The bullies are good people - you've brought it on yourself. You lack "social skills". Kick a ball around - pretend you like soccer - never say anything "weird".

My advice all along is that OP consider how his behaviour appears to others and consider the possibility that he is not helping himself in this situation before jumping to the conclusion that all the women are being bitchy and ganging up on him cos he has it handy.

The OP said nothing about "bitchy" - that's you dragging that in. That's your conclusion.

The OP did say its getting really stressful knowing that someone is nice to my face and then stabbing me in the back

Eoin

Eoin wrote: »

None of this sounds very helpful to the op. Please take this argument elsewhere.

*cough*

krd

Working_Man wrote: »

i assume no one will put anything in writing; if its verbal does he have to tell me who make the comments is it valid if its verbal or does it have to be in writing and signed

its getting really stressful knowing that someone is nice to my face and then stabbing me in the back

Something just struck me.

It could be your boss just trying to make you paranoid. And no one might be making any complaints about your work.

It's being done to "keep you on your toes"...... Many Irish managers believe you're not doing your job properly unless your stressed, worried, and having trouble sleeping at night. It's not enough to do the job, you have to be suffering in it.

It's happened in two places where I've worked. You're dragged in. Vague accusations are made against you (usually because they can't pin anything on you about your work, or time keeping (they can't give you ****e over being 3 minutes late))

So they tell you people are complaining about you. They won't tell you who it is. And sometimes they won't even tell you what you've done.

But they'll tell you people are complaining about you. Even say that people can't get along with you. You leave really paranoid and upset.

And the thing is they've just made the whole thing up.

I'd love to name one company who are really bad for it. They do it to nearly everyone.

Eoin

krd wrote: »

It's happened in two places where I've worked. You're dragged in. Vague accusations are made against you (usually because they can't pin anything on you about your work, or time keeping (they can't give you ****e over being 3 minutes late))

So they tell you people are complaining about you. They won't tell you who it is. And sometimes they won't even tell you what you've done.

But they'll tell you people are complaining about you. Even say that people can't get along with you. You leave really paranoid and upset.

And the thing is they've just made the whole thing up.

What a really crappy way to manage people!

tatli_lokma

Eoin whilst fully taking on board what you have said about dragging on an argument, I'm sorry but I just have to say
Thank god I have never worked in any place even remotely similar to Krd (and I have worked in some badly managed places, but none so bad as Krd!) and also thank god I have never worked with Krd! The world he inhabits is on another planet to the one I live in!

Eoin

ok, enough please. It's just getting personal now.

Sleepy

OP, if you've nothing to do for 2 days of the week I'd be more worried about finding something to do to fill those days that who it was that pointed this out to your boss.

Using myself as an example, I've had nothing scheduled for the last two days so to fill the time I took on the task that's been left undone for months because it's a tedious, boring job that's not exactly a good use of our skill-sets but it needed to be done and I had the time.

In this climate if you're sitting around 2 days of the week, you're expendable, a candidate for short-weeks or a candidate to be replaced by a cheaper employee that needs the full 5 days to do the work tbh.

If, on the other hand, you're the guy doing the work that's not yours to begin with or the girl seeking out things to do when your own work is done, who's going to be the one looked at for promotion or the last person looked at if downsizing is required?

ahyeahok

If you are not busy, look busy.
In my experience working with a workplace full of women is that Irish women love to begrudge and complain. If they don't see you for half the day they assume you are doing feck all (in my own experience), even though you could be mad busy.

If I find myself having a quiet day I just make sure I don't be found dossing or chatting because there is always a gaggle of women who will goss about it on their lunch hour.

Eoin

Can we please stop with the generalising.

And I'd say if you're not busy, don't look busy - find some proper work to do.

ahyeahok

Eoin wrote: »

Can we please stop with the generalising.

And I'd say if you're not busy, don't look busy - find some proper work to do.

I did say in my experience though
Seriously though, in any job ive been in, even when its quiet there is always some small jobs to be done, there really is no excuse to be caught dossing, especially on a regular basis.

Eoin

ahyeahok wrote: »

Seriously though, in any job ive been in, even when its quiet there is always some small jobs to be done, there really is no excuse to be caught dossing, especially on a regular basis.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Also, in this day and age, I'd be worried having that much spare time.

I hadn't actually read the original post properly - I thought the OP was working but because he was out and about doing other work, he was getting bitched about. If it's a case that he's sitting on his arse for 40% of the week, then threatening legal action right off the bat sounds really short sighted.

I don't think I'd call it "begrudging" by the other staff though. It's a pain when you're working away, seeing someone else doss for a large part of the week.