House we're renting has been sold

Mister Dread

I'd relax and don't lose any sleep over it. This will definitely work out in your favour. I
You should contact the new owners soon and explain to them the lay of the land. They might just give you all a grand each to leave sooner.

Pandora2

Vis a vis the deposit, if said 'landlord' has not made legal provision for it within the sale (and inmho the whole thing stinks to high Heaven!! Is this a cash trasaction, no mortgages, no survey's, no viewings FFS) could you sue the agent in the Small Claims Court??

They as Agents in a tight market did not notice he was selling the house literally from under you??.......And, they seem to have been the broker of your lease? Might you have a claim on them?? Just a thought:o

Apologise if I've been watching too much Judge Judy :o

Hope all this works out for you OP, it's bloody awful for you, but I agree with Mister Dread......you are in a strong position here and it would take ages and cost €€€ to have you evicted/the new owners wld be better advised to play ball with you....you have right's in law threaten to use them, if necessary....Negotiate first though;)

Milk & Honey

the key issue here is what is meant by the word sold. Selling a house is a two stage process. First there is the signing of contracts and payment of deposit nd a closing generally a few weeks later when the balance of the money is paid and possession handed over. What may have happened is that contracts have been exchanged but the closing has not happened. Quite often the house is described as being sold even though the sale is not complete. In that situation the new purchasers normally will not take over with tenants in situ.
It is impossible to say what the position is this situation from the information given.
The old landlord may be planning an illegal eviction before he hands over. You will not get damages from him because he will be in Spain.
the new owners may be willing to leave tenants in place.
On the other hand the new owners may want vacant possession.

the_syco

Milk & Honey wrote: »

the new owners may be willing to leave tenants in place.
On the other hand the new owners may want vacant possession.

OP, this is what matters now; if the house was bought to let, or bought bought to be lived in.

BostonB

Why would the new owners owe the deposit. They didn't take it, they don't have a contract with the tenant? The problem will be getting it off the original LL. The tenant has a lease, that legally can't be broken without their agreement. So the new owners can't move in for a year.

Pretty bad of the LL to create such a mess of something so simple.

subway

Boston the new owners are now the landlord.
The contract moves with the house.
The new owner needs to fulfil the terms of the contract. Solicitors for sale should advise the responsibilities.

BostonB

The contract moves with the house.

Whats the legal background to that?

subway

question 5:
http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=74&page=239

more info etc

http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1736
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=26341
http://www.ipoa.ie/userfiles/File/2007%20September%20IPOA%20Newsletter.pdf

BostonB

I'm not a fan of relying on threshold or forums as they are not always accurate.

I can understand the tenant tenancy continues, there's nothing AFAIK about the deposit, from what I can see.

subway

not sure what else i can do then as unfortunately, i'm not spending money hiring a solicitor to research case law and prove it to you

i would take threshold as correct unless shown otherwise. they say the new owner must fulfil the terms of the lease. the only place ive seen this happen before is at the allsop auctions. almost all other situations people are advised strongly againts buying with tenants in situ.

the OP can probably give us overall clarity as he is in the position. if you want me to take your opinion seriously i suggest you provide something to the contrary

ill also assume you didnt actually review anything i posted, just ignored the links since th last one is not from a forum, here is the quote for you

BE CAREFUL WHEN SELLING
Never sign a contract to sell with vacant possession until after the tenants have left the property. Obviously serve the correct notice of terminations on tenants and organise a buyer, but do not sign the contract until you are sure that the tenants have left. Otherwise if they don’t go and it takes you two or more years to get vacant possession by going through the Board, you can be penalised by the purchaser, and have to pay a monetary fine - this could be on a daily or weekly basis.

Be aware if you lock a tenant out of a property even
* when they are causing damage
* have not paid the rent for a year
* when they are threatening neighbours and other tenants
* overholding where you have served a valid notice of termination.
You can be fined up to €20,000 and may have to let the tenant back in.

BostonB

I accept your points but that still doesn't mention the deposit. I don't have the time to look it up either. It makes perfect logical sense that the new LL gets the deposit from the old one, and thus the tenant gets it back from the new one. That doesn't mean its law.

Regarding threshold, once experience I had was, they told a tenant, who was overstaying by a few months, they could continue not pay rent and over stay for as long as they wanted, as the LL couldn't get them out until they went to court which could take a couple of years. I would just be wary of what they say tis all.

variety

slowmoe wrote: »

There are 3 tenants in the house, the lease has been in one tenants name for 5 years. Its a new contract every year when the old one runs out.

You only need to establish one thing: have you ever claimed your right to Part 4 Tenancy? (ie has the Tenant who is on the lease agreement every, in writing, confirmed to the LL that he is under a Part 4 Tenancy?).
If not, then I would assume the lease agreement is a Fixed Term agreement (it would specifically state this somewhere, if not numerous times, in the lease).

If it is a Fixed Term agreement then your LL CANNOT terminate your Tenancy.

Your LL is perfectly within his rights to sell the property, but your Tenancy cannot be affected in any way by the sale.

slowmoe wrote: »

Its not under offer or sale agreed, its actually sold. The landlord(who lives abroad) told us that he doesn't own the property anymore and the new owners agents will be in touch to facilitate our vacating the property.

If you have a Fixed Term tenancy, ignore their demands and take a case to the PRTB for illegal termination of Tenancy.

slowmoe

well this gets weirder and weirder and we're no closer to a resolution.

Basically the sales agent (who is NOT our letting agent) got back in touch with us with a response from the owner. They were never informed there were tenants in the house and had been told it was a family home. It had been the ll's family home before he started letting it! They were planning on moving in next fri and have started packing up their own stuff. They're in rented accomodation and had given in their notice to leave next fri. They have asked if we would leave this weekend or by tues to give them a chance to clean up before they move in.

Obviously we responded with no way can we leave on such short notice, we have a signed lease (not a part 4, please read the thread!) that is due to expire in 9 months. There is not a break clause therefore we will stay for the duration of the lease. The sales agent response was....laughter! Seriously he actually laughed on the phone and said as the house was sold we were now trespassers and would have to leave straight away or face public eviction by the gardai. I've kind of seen read by this because while its obvious the ll wasn't all that truthful about the property, the sales agents and solicitors haven't done their job if something so important as tenants with a contract have gone unnoticed.

The above phone call was to my flatmate and i rang sales agent back today, sounding all super informed with the info on this thread lol! Thanks guys! I informed him that a fixed term lease can't be broken....his response, you don't have a lease anymore that house is sold. That when we do vacate the property we will be expecting our deposit in full...his response, what deposit??? The owners have no contract with you, you're squatting on their property and that he should be calling the guards. There were the expected threats of changing the keys and he also said the owners had viewed the house twice!!! We're all in normal ish 9-5 mon-fri jobs which the ll knew, so i guess they took advantage of that to enter the house.

The end of the conversation was him saying he's calling the guards and me saying i'm going to start prtb proceedings. We'll see how this plays out but i'm pretty confident now its clear the agent is such a tool

littlejp

slowmoe wrote: »

well this gets weirder and weirder and we're no closer to a resolution.

Basically the sales agent (who is NOT our letting agent) got back in touch with us with a response from the owner. They were never informed there were tenants in the house and had been told it was a family home. It had been the ll's family home before he started letting it! They were planning on moving in next fri and have started packing up their own stuff. They're in rented accomodation and had given in their notice to leave next fri. They have asked if we would leave this weekend or by tues to give them a chance to clean up before they move in.

Obviously we responded with no way can we leave on such short notice, we have a signed lease (not a part 4, please read the thread!) that is due to expire in 9 months. There is not a break clause therefore we will stay for the duration of the lease. The sales agent response was....laughter! Seriously he actually laughed on the phone and said as the house was sold we were now trespassers and would have to leave straight away or face public eviction by the gardai. I've kind of seen read by this because while its obvious the ll wasn't all that truthful about the property, the sales agents and solicitors haven't done their job if something so important as tenants with a contract have gone unnoticed.

The above phone call was to my flatmate and i rang sales agent back today, sounding all super informed with the info on this thread lol! Thanks guys! I informed him that a fixed term lease can't be broken....his response, you don't have a lease anymore that house is sold. That when we do vacate the property we will be expecting our deposit in full...his response, what deposit??? The owners have no contract with you, you're squatting on their property and that he should be calling the guards. There were the expected threats of changing the keys and he also said the owners had viewed the house twice!!! We're all in normal ish 9-5 mon-fri jobs which the ll knew, so i guess they took advantage of that to enter the house.

The end of the conversation was him saying he's calling the guards and me saying i'm going to start prtb proceedings. We'll see how this plays out but i'm pretty confident now its clear the agent is such a tool

Unbelievable arrogance by the estate agent. I hope everything works out for you.

El Weirdo

*subscribing*

Bens

Your contract is with the original owner.
It doesnt exist anymore because they dont own the house after the house is sold.
It cant be passed on to the new owner as they never agreed a contract with you.

You dont have a contract with the house

You could ask the new owner if they would enter a new contract with you.

Anyway, dont rely on message boards for your info. Dont rely on the PTRB or threshold either.
Ask a solicitor and they will tell you. Show them your lease.

BostonB

Good luck with it. its unbelieveable.

Ste.phen

Bens wrote: »

Your contract is with the original owner.
It doesnt exist anymore because they dont own the house after the house is sold.
It cant be passed on to the new owner as they never agreed a contract with you.

You dont have a contract with the house

You could ask the new owner if they would enter a new contract with you.

Anyway, dont rely on message boards for your info. Dont rely on the PTRB or threshold either.
Ask a solicitor and they will tell you. Show them your lease.

This is so spectacularly wrong i can't even believe it - read the rest of the thread - the contract moves with the house

Ste.phen

OP, I'd recommend having a quick talk with the local Gardaí as soon as possible in case you come home from work some day next week to find your stuff outside the house and the locks changed

Also, extremely important:
Make copies of your most recent lease and keep one in work
Take some photos of the house, preferably dated, showing it clean and with all your stuff in-situ
Log the details of all calls/letters/texts/emails with the landlord and/or agents

IF they did change the locks and dump your stuff outside it'd be a massive pain in the ass, but you'd eventually get compensated by the new landlord after a PRTB ruling

As far as I can tell from the details given you're completely entitled to stay there until the lease expires, and they'll have to negotiate your leaving early if that's what they want (which I assume they do)

In my opinion, payment to you of about 4 months' rent + deposit, and giving you 1 month to vacate would be fair given your chance of not finding somewhere suitable in a month and needing to pay for hotel/b&B/short term lets to get you sorted -

Overall I think you're completely in the right - let your (new) landlord fight it out with the (old) landlord and the various solicitors , and make sure you start paying rent to the new landlord effective whatever date the house transferred into their name

Bens

Ste.phen wrote: »

This is so spectacularly wrong i can't even believe it - read the rest of the thread - the contract moves with the house

Its not wrong.
I know someone who has been in this exact situation about a 6 months ago.
They went arrived at their new house on the day they got the keys with a moving truck expecting the house to be empty and there was someone living in it. It had been rented by the seller and they werent told. Well everyone is suing everyone.

If you think someone can have a contract with a house then good luck to you.

They can try to take it up with their original landlord if they can get him. Go to a solicitor.

But im not asking the OP to believe me either. Or anyone else posting for that matter.

Best advice is for the OP to go talk to a solicitor. The solicitor isnt a text post on the other side of the internet. They are a professional and the OP can depend on the advice they get from them.

---

Im under the impression here that the house is sold already - done and dusted, not in the process of waiting for the exchange, and the new owner now owns it and wants it.

If your old landlord still owns it then the new owners solicitors will not let them go ahead until they get vacant possession.
WHy would someone buy a house someone else lives in. The sale will probably fall through. In that case as your contract is valid and with the actual owner of the house. You have nothing to worry about.

Victor

Ste.phen wrote: »

OP, I'd recommend having a quick talk with the local Gardaí as soon as possible in case you come home from work some day next week to find your stuff outside the house and the locks changed

Agreed. The Garda will not tolerate an illegal evictions - the only people who can evict you are the sheriffs, after a court order has been granted.

Find the details of the estate agent and any professional organisations they belong to, e.g. IAVI (now part of SCSI) - do some reasearch on them. If you have subsequent phone conversations with them, try to have them recorded (you may only record a conversation that you are part of, not a third party one). If the threats continue, tell them you are making a complaint to the professional organisations. Then make the complaint. It might not be the agent's fault that he has been mislead, but threatening to evict you is unacceptable.

Write to the landlord to put them on notice, that any attempt to evict you will result in a complaint to Garda, the PRTB and if necessary the courts to injunct them. If they need vacant possession, they are going to have to pay your costs (moving expenses, your own time, any increase in rent, disturbance).

Marcusm

Bens wrote: »

Your contract is with the original owner.
It doesnt exist anymore because they dont own the house after the house is sold.
It cant be passed on to the new owner as they never agreed a contract with you.

You dont have a contract with the house

You could ask the new owner if they would enter a new contract with you.

Anyway, dont rely on message boards for your info. Dont rely on the PTRB or threshold either.
Ask a solicitor and they will tell you. Show them your lease.

Complete rubbish; the house can only be sold subject to the burden of the existing lease.

Bens

Marcusm wrote: »

Complete rubbish; the house can only be sold subject to the burden of the existing lease.

Rubbish. They should ask a solicitor for a proper answer.

BostonB

Bens wrote: »

Rubbish. They should ask a solicitor for a proper answer.

Have you ever done that. The few I've asked weren't that clear about the PRTB.

Bens

BostonB wrote: »

Have you ever done that. The few I've asked weren't that clear about the PRTB.

Ive asked solicitors several things.

Well which do you think is better advice? Take advice from a solicitor who you are paying for their expertise or the internet where everyone is an expert?

xper

Ste.phen wrote: »

IF they did change the locks and dump your stuff outside it'd be a massive pain in the ass, but you'd eventually get compensated by the new landlord after a PRTB ruling

OP,
One bit of advice I'd add is to actually come up with a plan to deal with the scenario of finding your stuff out on the street because, as completely illegal as it would be whether it is done by the old or new owner, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that it may come to pass given the extaordinary attitudes and opinions displayed by the seller and his estate agent.

So far, it sounds like you and your fellow tenants have acted completely properly and within the law under very stressful circumstances. And despite all that has been said by the other parties to date, they haven't actually acted on their intentions yet but things may come to a head soon. Keep your cool.

subway

Bens wrote: »

Its not wrong.
I know someone who has been in this exact situation about a 6 months ago.
They went arrived at their new house on the day they got the keys with a moving truck expecting the house to be empty and there was someone living in it. It had been rented by the seller and they werent told. Well everyone is suing everyone.

If you think someone can have a contract with a house then good luck to you.

They can try to take it up with their original landlord if they can get him. Go to a solicitor.

But im not asking the OP to believe me either. Or anyone else posting for that matter.

Best advice is for the OP to go talk to a solicitor. The solicitor isnt a text post on the other side of the internet. They are a professional and the OP can depend on the advice they get from them.

---

Im under the impression here that the house is sold already - done and dusted, not in the process of waiting for the exchange, and the new owner now owns it and wants it.

If your old landlord still owns it then the new owners solicitors will not let them go ahead until they get vacant possession.
WHy would someone buy a house someone else lives in. The sale will probably fall through. In that case as your contract is valid and with the actual owner of the house. You have nothing to worry about.

So they were on the same position and the sale couldn't go ahead because of lack f vacant possession? Why do you think that was? Because the purchaser would have to Hhonor the lease...
Have you never seen a house sold with tenants in place? Look at all sop space for example.

The only sensible thing you have said is to talk to a solicitor.

BostonB

Bens wrote: »

Ive asked solicitors several things.

Well which do you think is better advice? Take advice from a solicitor who you are paying for their expertise or the internet where everyone is an expert?

Just because you pay someone doesn't mean they'll give you good advise. Theres good and bad solicitors same as every other sphere of life. An example is the number who will issue solicitor letters for tenant issues when they should be going to the prtb. The best advise is to some research yourself and be informed so that someone on the internet, or a solicitor doesn't give you completely wrong information. Not that the OP shouldn't ignore the possibility that someone may not follow a legal route and do an illegal eviction regardless of the implications or the cost. It may be cheaper for a LL to pay a fine than go the legal route.

Bens

subway wrote: »

So they were on the same position and the sale couldn't go ahead because of lack f vacant possession? Why do you think that was? Because the purchaser would have to Hhonor the lease...
Have you never seen a house sold with tenants in place? Look at all sop space for example.

The only sensible thing you have said is to talk to a solicitor.

The sale did go ahead. Nobody mentioned a tenant in the house.
And the purchaser did not have to honor the lease.
The tenants were squatters in the new owners house.

So yes I have seen a house sold with a tenant in place where the buyer closed and knew nothing of the tenant.
And also houses are often sold with tenants in place. As is commercial property often sold with tenants in place.

Now get down off that high horse.
Please stop the sh1te talking and just let the OP go talk to their solicitor.

Bens

BostonB wrote: »

Just because you pay someone doesn't mean they'll give you good advise. Theres good and bad solicitors same as every other sphere of life. An example is the number who will issue solicitor letters for tenant issues when they should be going to the prtb. The best advise is to some research yourself and be informed so that someone on the internet, or a solicitor doesn't give you completely wrong information. Not that the OP shouldn't ignore the possibility that someone may not follow a legal route and do an illegal eviction regardless of the implications or the cost. It may be cheaper for a LL to pay a fine than go the legal route.

The question still stands. Are you saying that the OP should take advice from random strangers on the internet over engaging a solicitor?

OP, engage a solicitor. It wont cost you much just to talk one. Show them your lease, let them know everything about the situation and see what they come up with. At the least they'll let you know where you stand without having to take it further.