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The Battle of Aughrim on the original 12 July 1691
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03-10-2011 10:50pm#1
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Well these are two wiki's but anyway, according to them : The Battle of the Boyne ( BoB ) had 25,000 on James side with 1,500 causalties. 36,000 on Williams with 750 causalities. Aughrim 18,000 on James side with 4,000 killed. 20,000 with William and 3,000 killed. So therefore Aughrim was a much more pivotal battle in the campaign. The "Glorious Twelfth" is probably the biggest myth in Irish history i.e.I read somewhere that this was the largest battle to be fought on Irish Soil and was the decisive battle between the Williamites and the Jacobites.
That said I know little about it other than it was won by the Williamites and became obscured historically by the much less important Battle of the Boyne.
How it got obscured was when the gregorian callender was adopted in Britain in 1752 the lore that was built up around the "Glorious Twelfth" got swapped over to the "skirmish" in Co Meath.
The anniversary of the decisive battle now fell on the 22nd July.
I know knothing about the battle and would love to know more.
* " king Billy 'bait' the Pope at the Boyne " when in fact William was supported by the Pope.
* the campaign brought in " Civil and religious liberty " when in fact it did the exact opposite as the Penal Laws etc were to follow
* the " Glorious revoulotion was bloodless " - need I say any more :rolleyes:
* William was little more than a Dutch mercenary who defeated an English king and was also gay, something our unionist friends like to leave out of course
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aughrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne0 -
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HellsAngel wrote: »Well these are two wiki's but anyway, according to them : The Battle of the Boyne ( BoB ) had 25,000 on James side with 1,500 causalties. 36,000 on Williams with 750 causalities. Aughrim 18,000 on James side with 4,000 killed. 20,000 with William and 3,000 killed. So therefore Aughrim was a much more pivotal battle in the campaign. The "Glorious Twelfth" is probably the biggest myth in Irish history i.e.
* " king Billy 'bait' the Pope at the Boyne " when in fact William was supported by the Pope.
* the campaign brought in " Civil and religious liberty " when in fact it did the exact opposite as the Penal Laws etc were to follow
* the " Glorious revoulotion was bloodless " - need I say any more :rolleyes:
* William was little more than a Dutch mercenary who defeated an English king and was also gay, something our unionist friends like to leave out of course
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aughrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne
Compared to France and Spain, it was rampant liberalism. France had just declared Protestantism illegal and Spain was still having its inquisition. I'm not sure being gay was a crime then though, is it isn't today so I fail to see the relevance of that.0 -
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HellsAngel wrote: »
* William was little more than a Dutch mercenary who defeated an English king and was also gay, something our unionist friends like to leave out of courseFratton Fred wrote: »I'm not sure being gay was a crime then though, is it isn't today so I fail to see the relevance of that.
FYI – it was against the law in England to be homosexual at the time of William’s reign. A law against homosexual acts [or sodomy as it was called] was passed during the reign of Henry VIII. It was called The Buggery Act, 1533. It was punishable by death and confiscation of all property by the Crown. Walter Hungerford was the first to be executed in 1540 under this law for the crime of buggery - although he really was just another victim of Henry’s murderous reign because Hungerford had apparently sided with the Pilgrimage of Grace, the English Catholic armed rebellion against Henry’s religious ‘reforms’.
The death penalty part of the law was lifted only in 1861 when prison terms were introduced. But this was followed by The Criminal Law Amendment Act in 1885 a stricter law that actually criminalized private homosexual acts referred to as 'gross indecency'. This was the law that sent Oscar Wilde to gaol for two years hard labour, solitary confinement.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »I know, but let's not go there.
Eer
- Fred, I think you were doing the driving when we went down that road.
But brakes on now.0 -
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No one in the world has ever tried to hype themselves up with the conceited lies that they alone defeated Germany in WW2 than the BritsFratton Fred wrote: »I wouldn't expect a bigoted homophobic twat like you to understand liberalism, but in reality, the Battle of the Boyne and the Battle at Aughrim were a mere sideshow in the european wide battle between various religious groups.
If Britain had taken the same approach that France and Spain took, there would be no need for the penal laws as catholics would have been either driven from the country, or slaughtered.
but of course, no one in the world has ever suffered as much as the Irish have......:rolleyes: !!!! And don't forget how they alone also defeated the Japanese !!!!
One of the things about the Brits is that they like to mouth off that no army has invaded Britain since the Normans in 1066 ( but they like to pride themselves on invading everyone else country But that's the Brits for you, they just LOVE themselves :rolleyes:). When in fact the Dutch gay mercenary William of Orange invaded Britain in 1688. 0 -
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I think that to say Ireland had the Spanish or French variety of Catholicism at that time , as Fred hs implied, is not sustainable.
In England you had a Civil war but Ireland's situation was not clear cut.
William was considered a modern liberal prince in Europe but that may not have translated to his treatment of the Irish Catholics in Ireland or the Ulster Presbyterians either. Thats why the composition of the Armies is important to me as to who acquired land post Aughrim and why.
As to Williams sexual orientation. It is not of any consequence though he made one of his alledged lovers Earl of Athlone and had to reverse a land grant.
Rumours were rife in the UK.
So a bit about King William ;
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=+1]William III, Prince of Orange, King of England (1650-1702) [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Times,Times New Roman,serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Times,Times New Roman,serif]Speculations about William III's sexuality have been countered by his English and American biographers, who have been unwilling to entertain the idea that a man of his nobility of character and special historical significance could have loved other men. Dutch writers on the other hand have been much more willing to accept the evidence that William was, indeed, bisexual. [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Times,Times New Roman,serif] William was born at the Hague in 1650, the posthumous son of William II, who died a few days before he was born, and Mary Stuart, daughter of the late King Charles I of England, who had been deposed by English Parliamentarians. William was thus an important figure in European politics from the day of his birth, since he not only inherited his Dutch titles, but was fourth in line to inherit the British throne should it be restored.
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His claim to the British throne was reinforced in 1677, when he married the daughter of James, Duke of York, who was to succeed to the British monarchy in 1685.
William III acceded to the British throne when the English ousted James II in the "Glorious Revolution" of 1688. He and his wife, Mary II, ruled together until her death in 1694. After her death, he ruled alone until he died in 1702. The couple was childless, so he was succeeded by Mary's sister Anne.
As "stadholder" (military commander) of the Dutch Republic, William had opposed the aggressions of Louis XIV that threatened the Netherlands and neighboring states. For this he was hailed by the Dutch as the "Redeemer of the Fatherland."
When he brought England into the coalition against France he became the acknowledged champion of Protestant Europe. It is this preeminence as an international hero that has made it hard for Anglophone admirers to candidly assess William's sexual orientation.
William had close and affectionate relations with two notable favorites, William Bentinck, whom he brought to England and made Earl of Portland, and a handsome younger Dutchman, Arnold van Keppel, whom he created Earl of Albemarle.
A spate of political satires accusing William of intimate relations with both men circulated during his reign. These scurrilous poems are quite explicit in their allegations, and are obviously the work of Tory partisans who favored James. For this reason they have been discounted by William's defenders.
One satire begins: "For the case, Sir, is such, / That the people think much, / That your love is Italian, your government Dutch. / Ah! Who would have thought that a Low-Country Stallion, / and a Protestant Prince should prove an Italian?" (Italy was the country most notably associated with sodomy in the seventeenth century.) Jonathan Swift also referred to William's "infamous pleasures" with Keppel in a manuscript note. All this has, however, been dismissed as the malicious gossip of Tory enemies.
Nevertheless, rumors were also rife among those favorable to the king. These include the redoubtable "Madame," Duchess of Orléans, who was married to France's most flamboyantly conspicuous homosexual, "Monsieur," and whose correspondence makes up a veritable encyclopedia of homosexuality in that country and England. Her letters are admiring of the king but speak repeatedly of "men who share King William's inclinations."
Rumors also circulated in the Dutch army, which was fanatically loyal to the house of Orange.
Most telling, however, are the remarks of Bishop Gilbert Burnet, who praised William unstintingly as "a person raised up by God to resist the power of France and the progress of tyranny and persecution." Yet in considering matters that might make it difficult for William to assume the English throne, Burnet refers to one "particular . . . too tender to be put in writing," which under the circumstances can only be interpreted as a reference to William's sexual nature.
To nineteenth-century liberal historians such as Thomas Macaulay, William III ranked as one of England's greatest kings for his fostering of religious and political liberty and for his leadership of the European nations who fought Louis XIV.
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/william_III.html
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The Keppels are still around and one Duchess of Cornwall is descended from a Keppel who was a royal mistress.0 -
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