single Mother emigrating

mammmmmy

Thanks Bullseye1- I'd say there'll be let down /upheaval either way- and i suppose if the father puts up a fight well then he has more interest in the child than i thought. What will be will be i guess. Thanks again.

Mr. Presentable

So, ignoring all the hyperbole, to answer the OP,

Yes, the father can, by refusing his child leave to exit the country, prevent you from taking him/her.

mammmmmy

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

So, ignoring all the hyperbole, to answer the OP,

Yes, the father can, by refusing his child leave to exit the country, prevent you from taking him/her.

You're free to judge as you please- - thats irrelevant to me however thanks for your information

Fittle

From your original post OP, I guesed that he had little involvement in his childs life, and that the small amount he did have, was court ordered. The truth is, if he was a father who was a good role model in the childs life and saw alot of the child, you would hardly be considering asking peoples opinions on emigrating - chances are you would be asking him to help you out more.

As it is, if you can get set up abroad before you leave, I say go for it.

mammmmmy

Fittle wrote: »

From your original post OP, I guesed that he had little involvement in his childs life, and that the small amount he did have, was court ordered. The truth is, if he was a father who was a good role model in the childs life and saw alot of the child, you would hardly be considering asking peoples opinions on emigrating - chances are you would be asking him to help you out more.

As it is, if you can get set up abroad before you leave, I say go for it.

Thanks- i guess i just have to make sure its legal before we go.- wouldn't want to kidnap my own child- as some have put it.

Fittle

mammmmmy wrote: »

Thanks- i guess i just have to make sure its legal before we go.- wouldn't want to kidnap my own child- as some have put it.

You will (unfortunately) need his permission to emigrate, just to cover all angles. He may not be very interested in his child just now - but who knows what's around the corner? Often, in my (working) experience, men like your ex show an interest in their biological children when they get a new girlfriend who has a child or have a second child themselves. I want to state clearly that I am not judging or generalising single fathers in any way by that statement - and I certainly don't want this to become a 'single fathers rights' debate. There are many wonderful single fathers out there and I am the first to acknowledge this. In fact, I was in the playground in Merrion Square today (after a visit to the museum - highly recommended!!) and there were nothing BUT committed dads on every bench.

Anyhow OP, I digress - just politely ask his opinion for starters - if he objects, then as you say, he is obviously more interested than you had thought and perhaps if that argument ensues, you can consider asking him to become more involved i.e. would he consider childcare while you work and stay in Ireland etc.

Morag

The site rules state that we can't post encouraging someone to do something illegal.
But sometimes the law is an ass.
Weigh up your options and do what is best for you and the future of your child.
It's a tough situation to be in.

Fittle

Sharrow wrote: »

The site rules state that we can't post encouraging someone to do something illegal.

Ok, well obviously I am not encouraging the OP to do anything illegal - which is why I suggested in my last post, that she speak to him about it first.

But is it illegal in itself if she travels abroad without his permission? Does guardianship mean he has to give permission for all travel - I know it means he has to sign passport applications etc, but does it also mean he has to approve her leaving the country at any time?

planetX

Fittle wrote: »

From your original post OP, I guesed that he had little involvement in his childs life, and that the small amount he did have, was court ordered. The truth is, if he was a father who was a good role model in the childs life and saw alot of the child, you would hardly be considering asking peoples opinions on emigrating - chances are you would be asking him to help you out more.

As it is, if you can get set up abroad before you leave, I say go for it.

Is the access court ordered? If so it will state the penalty for leaving the state with the child - mine does at any rate, 6 months in jail. The only route for the OP is to go to the father and ask for permission, or go back to court to look for permission, which I really doubt will be granted. I'm sorry, but I know a couple of women from the uk who are not allowed to move home with the children.

Sleepy

mammmmmy wrote:

10- 'Sleepy' if the law were to be changed to make it illegal for me to leave the country with my child; in the name of fairness should it also be changed in order to prevent the father moving away from his child?

Well, the law actually says you can't move your child to a different country without his consent so there wouldn't be any need for it to be changed in this regard.

To answer your hypothetical: yes, unless there's a good reason for the father (or non-custodial mother) to be kept away from the child.

mammmmmy

Sleepy wrote: »

Why would you want to deny your child his / her father?

If the law doesn't allow your child's father to block this, it needs to be change tbh.

i was basing my comment on this whereby it seemed that you didn't quite know what the law is. So its easy enough for you to now tell me what the law actually states when someone else has just said it

mammmmmy

planetX wrote: »

Is the access court ordered? If so it will state the penalty for leaving the state with the child - mine does at any rate, 6 months in jail. The only route for the OP is to go to the father and ask for permission, or go back to court to look for permission, which I really doubt will be granted. I'm sorry, but I know a couple of women from the uk who are not allowed to move home with the children.

Thanks for that- I just checked it- nothing as specific as yours in it though. The more info i get the less possible it seems tho. Cheers

Sleepy

Fair enough, I'm not trying to pick an argument. As other posters have alluded to, a parent with guardianship can refuse permission for their child to be taken out of the country but (as with many issues separated fathers face) is that even while the law says one thing there's very little that can be done by the non-custodial parent if the mother decides to break that law.

Sleepy

mammmmmy wrote: »

The more info i get the less possible it seems tho. Cheers

Why? From the way you describe the father's lack of interest in the child he's not likely to refuse you?

mammmmmy

Fittle wrote: »

Ok, well obviously I am not encouraging the OP to do anything illegal - which is why I suggested in my last post, that she speak to him about it first.

But is it illegal in itself if she travels abroad without his permission? Does guardianship mean he has to give permission for all travel - I know it means he has to sign passport applications etc, but does it also mean he has to approve her leaving the country at any time?

I think its obvious you were not encouraging anything illegal- i also think i may have stated a few times that i will not be attempting to pursue anything illegal anyway- thanks for your help.

mammmmmy

Sleepy wrote: »

Why? From the way you describe the father's lack of interest in the child he's not likely to refuse you?

honestly speaking i don't know what his response will be- and a lot of the lack of interest is probably laziness- i don't doubt that he loves the child- it just seems that he wants the child for the fun stuff and when he has nothing else socially going on in life. He refuses to help when the child is sick etc but i think he enjoys the bi-monthly access

Sleepy

I suppose the question you have to ask yourself then is does your child enjoy & benefit from the access?

A friend of mine managed to move to Scotland with her daughter quite amicably with her ex-partner. Part of their agreement involved her paying for an agreed number of his flights over to see their daughter and put him up when he was there and to bring her back to Ireland every second month or something like that.

Obviously, whether that's a goer for you depends on where you intend to move and what your financial position will be once you get there. With Scotland, that's easily enough managed. In Australia or Canada, for example, it could be very difficult.

cynder

A friend of mine moved to Canada 2 years ago with 3 kids the daddy has now left Ireland with no forwarding address, hasn't seen the kids in 1 year. Hasn't phoned them or made any sort of contact, the kids stayed with him for a month over the summer Holstein last year.... No idea how any parent can break of contact with their child.

Morag

Get legal advice on it, I know of two parents who got permission from the courts when they contested the other parent blocking them leaving the country, as they were able to prove that they would have a better live and would have a job and support systems in place they were granted the right to move with the child.

James Jones

mammmmmy wrote: »

Hi I'm single Mother and i may have to emigrate to find work. My Child's father is a legal guardian of our child and his does exercise the access arrangements put in place. Can the father prevent us from moving abroad?

Yes.
According to Section 16 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997

(1) A person to whom this section applies shall be guilty of an offence, who takes, sends or keeps a child under the age of 16 years out of the State or causes a child under that age to be so taken, sent or kept—
(a) in defiance of a court order, or
(b) without the consent of each person who is a parent, or guardian or person to whom custody of the child has been granted by a court unless the consent of a court was obtained.

Cat Melodeon

mammmmmy wrote: »

Thanks- i guess i just have to make sure its legal before we go.- wouldn't want to kidnap my own child- as some have put it.

I mentioned the word abduction in one of the earlier posts OP. This wasn't a judgement of any kind, it is just what you could be legally accused of if you did emigrate without the father's permission. A friend of mine moved with her two children to Canada last year leaving the father behind. He initially objected but they managed to come to an agreement outside the courts - I think they went through the Family Mediation Service. Not bashing anyone here, but he really played no significant role in their lives and the quality of life they now enjoy is far superior to anything they had access to here. They miss all their extended family but have family and friends in Canada already and are settling well. The dad has an open invitation to visit and stay whenever he wants - he hasn't gone yet, for whatever reasons (not lack of money).

If it's what you want, go for it, just be aware that he can make it very difficult for you so tread softly.

James Jones

Sharrow wrote: »

He doens't have the right to stop you up and moving to another country, he does how ever get a say in if his child moves to another country.

This is not true. See Section 16 of the Non Fatal Offences Against the person act.

Fittle wrote: »

is it illegal in itself if she travels abroad without his permission? Does guardianship mean he has to give permission for all travel - I know it means he has to sign passport applications etc, but does it also mean he has to approve her leaving the country at any time?

Yes

mammmmmy wrote: »

wouldn't want to kidnap my own child- as some have put it.

They are not being judgemental by indicating that you would be kidnapping your own child. The legislation refers to it as "Abduction of child by parent".

Morag

James Jones he can not block her on her own leaving the country, please re read what I posted.

James Jones

Sharrow wrote: »

James Jones wrote: »

Sharrow wrote: »

He doens't have the right to stop you up and moving to another country, he does how ever get a say in if his child moves to another country.

This is not true. See Section 16 of the Non Fatal Offences Against the person act.

James Jones he can not block her on her own leaving the country, please re read what I posted.

Sorry. The sentence construction threw me off.

The Corinthian

Sharrow wrote: »

Get legal advice on it, I know of two parents who got permission from the courts when they contested the other parent blocking them leaving the country, as they were able to prove that they would have a better live and would have a job and support systems in place they were granted the right to move with the child.

I suspect there was more to it than simply "a better live and would have a job and support systems in place"; otherwise custody would more often go to the parent with a job. Where is also an issue; moving to Australia has a far greater impact than moving to the UK. I suspect the judge on the day is also a potential factor.

OP: I would council against a unilateral emigration. As has been pointed out it would legally be seen as abduction which would mean that you would end up having to live 'under the radar' indefinitely, move to a jurisdiction where he Hague convention, that covers this issue internationally, does not apply (limiting you to countries such as Saudi Arabia or North Korea) and returning to Ireland, even for a visit, could result in your arrest.

The first step is to seek legal advice. Ultimately a bunch of armchair lawyers on the interweb will not be qualified to give advice you can rely on, although we can probably point you in the right or most likely direction.

The father in your case has both guardianship and (court-ordered) access, which would indicate that a court has already decided that the father is better off in the child's life - regardless of your opinion. My suspicion is that if he legally objected to the child being brought to another country to live, it is more than likely that he would be able to block such a move.

The only thing that struck me, from what you said, was that he presently has bi-monthly access; is that bi-monthly in terms of twice a month or every two months (it's a little unclear to me)? If the latter, and if you intend to move within Europe, then your chances of overruling his objection would get a lot better, IMHO, as he could still have the same access by flying over, especially if you are seen to accommodate such an arrangement (financially and/or otherwise).

Negotiation will probably (after you know where you stand legally) be the best or even only course of action. Some compromise agreement where the child can spend the Summers with the father, for example, could be one solution. Another is where the father would travel regularly to see the child (although cost would have to be negotiated). If his interest in the child is really limited, offering to reduce or forego any maintenance may also work. Using a counsellor or mediator may be advisable for this if the two of you have a poor working relationship.

Funky G

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suspect there was more to it than simply "a better live and would have a job and support systems in place"; otherwise custody would more often go to the parent with a job. Where is also an issue; moving to Australia has a far greater impact than moving to the UK. I suspect the judge on the day is also a potential factor.

OP: I would council against a unilateral emigration. As has been pointed out it would legally be seen as abduction which would mean that you would end up having to live 'under the radar' indefinitely, move to a jurisdiction where he Hague convention, that covers this issue internationally, does not apply (limiting you to countries such as Saudi Arabia or North Korea) and returning to Ireland, even for a visit, could result in your arrest.

The first step is to seek legal advice. Ultimately a bunch of armchair lawyers on the interweb will not be qualified to give advice you can rely on, although we can probably point you in the right or most likely direction.

The father in your case has both guardianship and (court-ordered) access, which would indicate that a court has already decided that the father is better off in the child's life - regardless of your opinion. My suspicion is that if he legally objected to the child being brought to another country to live, it is more than likely that he would be able to block such a move.

The only thing that struck me, from what you said, was that he presently has bi-monthly access; is that bi-monthly in terms of twice a month or every two months (it's a little unclear to me)? If the latter, and if you intend to move within Europe, then your chances of overruling his objection would get a lot better, IMHO, as he could still have the same access by flying over, especially if you are seen to accommodate such an arrangement (financially and/or otherwise).

Negotiation will probably (after you know where you stand legally) be the best or even only course of action. Some compromise agreement where the child can spend the Summers with the father, for example, could be one solution. Another is where the father would travel regularly to see the child (although cost would have to be negotiated). If his interest in the child is really limited, offering to reduce or forego any maintenance may also work. Using a counsellor or mediator may be advisable for this if the two of you have a poor working relationship.

for me, the best post on this thread. a lot of common sense without the gun-ho attitude of crashing in with the lawyers, especially if you get all your advice from the web.

op - talk to the dad. talk to your solicitor in his / her office. i sense a lot of anger from your posts in that the dad only sees the child now and again and you feel that he should be doing a lot more. taking the dad out of the equation for he only sees the child once in blue moon could do some damage to all parties

Grandady

I agree with Funky G. Talk to the Dad.