Irish Slutwalk

LeeHoffmann

their outfit may cause certain men to think that they're 'up for it' on a night out and behave with less respect towards them.

You can't ''cause'' anybody to think anything. It doesn't matter what somebody's wearing - if they say no, clearly they don't want it.

There should be a certain amount of risk management, concerning the outfit you wear, your company and where you're heading before you head out and to march for society to ensure that such precautions are unnecessary is laudable, but I fear unlikely to change anything.

So on a night out, women should cover up all skin and any parts of their bodies that could cause a stir in the opposite sex? Nobody's saying 'precautions are unnecessary' - everyone takes precautions but some things go wrong and you shouldn't hold rape victims responsible for their own rape. 25% of people apparently believe that a woman is at least partially to blame if she is raped while wearing revealing clothing or after having drunk alcohol.

Matthew23

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"tarting themselves up" show's your own opinion of girls dressed like this maybe? the whole point of it is it's taking the power out of the word "slut". Why shouldn't women dress how they want to without being groped, or fear of something happening, I think this march is an excellent way forward.

yeah rapists are reasonable folks, they will go through that exact same thought process when they hear of this march and theyll put away the rape set under the stairs forever :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

midlandsmissus

speedboatchase wrote: »

If a woman wears extremely revealing outfits, they will court, whether welcome or unwelcome, attention from the opposite sex. On a more extreme scale, their outfit may cause certain men to think that they're 'up for it' on a night out and behave with less respect towards them.

In an ideal world, that wouldn't happen, however, that's the world we live in. To quote Rod Liddle in the Sunday Times, "I have a perfect right to leave my windows open when I nip to the shops for some fags, without being burgled. It doesn’t lessen the guilt of the burglar that I’ve left my window open, or even remotely suggest that I was deserving of being burgled. Just that it was more likely to happen."

There should be a certain amount of risk management, concerning the outfit you wear, your company and where you're heading before you head out and to march for society to ensure that such precautions are unnecessary is laudable, but I fear unlikely to change anything.

Yeah but attention = okay. Being groped and at the extreme end: raped is not.
It's making men sound like neanderthals who can't control themselves when they see a bit of leg. What next, we will all be dressed as muslim women because men can't control themselves seeing a bit of flesh? I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

prinz

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

You can't ''cause'' anybody to think anything. It doesn't matter what somebody's wearing - ....

So let's say one lad pops down to the shops dressed as Hitler, and another in jeans and a tshirt. What other people think of both men is identical?

4leto

suicide_circus wrote: »

Provocative clothing is designed to do just that, provoke.

But so what, that doesn't mean you should act on a provocation, if anyone wants to dress sexy they are free to so. Even if a woman was to lay naked on a nudist beach that is not an invitation to a man to have sex.

Would you rather woman dressed in a Nijab as they do in some Moslem countries.

Germaine Greer is actually a big supporter of this form of protest.

Chuck Stone

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

25% of people apparently believe that a woman is at least partially to blame if she is raped while wearing revealing clothing or after having drank alcohol.

There are very simple solutions to this.

1. Ban alcohol.
2. Make women wear clothes that cover all but the eyes.
3. Make women responsible for rape unless they have a male family member with them at all times.


No wait...

The King of Moo

To add to the point about rape being more about asserting dominance rather than sexual desire:

Here's a report about male-on-male sexual assault in the U.S military which seems to be quite common.
Now this is a very heterosexual, male, competitive environment, and while some cases can be put down to men spending a long time away from female company, there's undoubtedly a strong element of competitive attempts to stamp authority on their fellow men to these assaults.

Apparently happens in the police force there, to "induct" a new detective, for example (I believe such a case was alluded to in an early episode of The Wire, and drawn from real events).

prinz

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

Hell yeah sistah!

FetchTheGin

prinz wrote: »

So let's say one lad pops down to the shops dressed as Hitler, and another in jeans and a tshirt. What other people think of both men is identical?

Hmmmm, one is dressed as a mass murdering dictator, so I am guessing, no they aren't identical.

midlandsmissus

Matthew23 wrote: »

yeah rapists are reasonable folks, they will go through that exact same thought process when they hear of this march and never rape again :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

There are many, many more rapists/ sexual assaulters than you think. Rapists are not just creepy men hiding down dark alleys.

Being a woman going out on a night out you often run the gauntlet.

Men's perceptions need to change, I think they think of "rapists" as far seperate to themselves: a man who breaks into a girls house and rapes her, and differentiate their own behaviour to make it ok.

Sticking your hand up a girls skirt in a club and groping at her crotch as she's walking by in a packed club is sexual assault, just one example I can think of many I've heard.

CiaranC

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Yeah but attention = okay. Being groped and at the extreme end: raped is not.
It's making men sound like neanderthals who can't control themselves when they see a bit of leg.

You are confusing "man" with "rapist"

LeeHoffmann

So let's say one lad pops down to the shops dressed as Hitler, and another in jeans and a tshirt. What other people think of both men is identical?

I'm going to guess that different people have different thoughts To use your example, does a guy dressing up like Hitler cause someone to think he wants to be murdered?

Provocative clothing is designed to do just that, provoke.

provoke what?...rape?

prinz

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Hmmmm, one is dressed as a mass murdering dictator, so I am guessing, no they aren't identical.

Which kind of undermines the point that you can't cause somebody to think something by virtue of what you are wearing doesn't it..

midlandsmissus

CiaranC wrote: »

You are confusing "man" with "rapist"

No I think you'll find that you are.

The march is aimed at all unwanted attention, and groping by men when dressed in short skirts/ tight tops.

speedboatchase

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Yeah but attention = okay. Being groped and at the extreme end: raped is not.
It's making men sound like neanderthals who can't control themselves when they see a bit of leg. What next, we will all be dressed as muslim women because men can't control themselves seeing a bit of flesh? I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

I absolutely agree but my point is that risk management is just common sense advice and does not invoke any victim-blaming. As for the line "how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?", I agree - nobody should have any say unless you're actually breaking the law - but the point has been made that this is a movement that is defining itself sexually by using male-created terms such as "slut" (which I hear women use a lot more than men).

If anything, the idea of dressing ironically as a 'slut' and painting it on your midriff to remove the power of the word actually sounds more like a march for guilt-free promiscuity, no? To me at least, it doesn't seem the next logical step to remove abhorrent victim-blaming in rape cases.

dr.bollocko

mod:
pacquiao banned. Being a dick. Posts quoting him removed because lets not give the dumb-assed comments the gift of being read.

stovelid

midlandsmissus wrote: »

and groping by men when dressed in short skirts/ tight tops.

Bit of a slur against transvestites?

Matthew23

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Men's perceptions need to change, I think they think of "rapists" as far seperate to themselves

well excuse me but that IS a perfectly reasonable thing for 99% of men to think. stick to feminism, this misandry thing is not pleasant

supersparkz

4leto wrote: »

So when and where is this I want to go in and ogle err I mean support.

Your mission is to find and take photos.....And you will choose to accept it!:P:P

prinz

midlandsmissus wrote: »

The march is aimed at all unwanted attention, and groping by men when dressed in short skirts/ tight tops.

When is the march for men against being groped by women? I can confidently say I have been groped more times by strange women than I have by strange men. Any chance the slutwalk is going to raise the question about that phenomenon?

I also seem to remember an ad from tv where a man (a waiter I seem to recall) without his asking had his arse pinched by someone at a table of women. But sure it was all in good fun, tee hee hee.

FetchTheGin

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

One idiot Police officer in Canada makes a throwaway comment and you blame all men.

Bitter much?

LeeHoffmann

Which kind of undermines the point that you can't cause somebody to think something by virtue of what you are wearing doesn't it..

No it doesn't at all. See my post above. Think about what you're saying. You think that I can cause you to think anything? Not your own judgement of what I say or do? Not your own perceptions and rationale? I think you're confusing ''cause'' with ''influence''

speedboatchase

Pics on Twitter, everyone's wrapped up extremely warm - I don't blame them in our weather

prinz

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I think you're confusing ''cause'' with ''influence''

Debate that the rapist. I didn't cause you to think I was up for it, I only influenced you to think I was up for it....

midlandsmissus

FetchTheGin wrote: »

One idiot Police officer in Canada makes a throwaway comment and you blame all men.

Bitter much?

FetchtheGin I'm not even talking about that police officer, don't tell me you haven't heard before : she was asking for it, she was dressed provocatively.

No she wasn't asking for it, these perceptions need to change.

LeeHoffmann

Debate that the rapist. I didn't cause you to think I was up for it, I only influenced you to think I was up for it....

I'm debating with you (and any others who think that a rape victim is in any way responsible for their rape). Explain what you mean by 'up for it'. Do you perceive a difference between being ''up for'' sex and being ''up for'' rape?

Thud

The King of Moo wrote: »

I tried to find some studies to link to in my original post, but apparently it's difficult to get data and create such a study.

Personally I don't think dress makes any difference. As someone else said, I think it's usually about asserting dominance rather than sexual desire.

We could set up either
(a)a controlled study where we send a large group of girls out on alternative days dressed sluttily on day one and then dressed unsluttily on the second day and record the number of sexual assaults on each day
or
(b)we could add a box for the police/gardai to tick on their reports: "Was victim dressed like a slut: yes/no"

prinz

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I'm debating with you (and any others who think that a rape victim is in any way responsible for their rape).

Yep here we go. Been round this particular roundabout before if memory serves. Responsibility for the rape doesn't have to be shared out 90:10, or 60:40. The rapist is 100% responsible for the act of rape so you can drop that rubbish for a start.

Won't even bother with the second part.

prinz

midlandsmissus wrote: »

No she wasn't asking for it, these perceptions need to change.

..and to change the perceptions that it's ok for women to grope men? When is the march for that?

Dyr

FetchTheGin wrote: »

One idiot Police officer in Canada makes a throwaway comment and you blame all men.

Bitter much?

My understanding was the he made a comment about one way to avoid being raped was not to dress like a slut...some major league knee jerking elevated the issue beyond that.

midlandsmissus

Matthew23 wrote: »

well excuse me but that IS a perfectly reasonable thing for 99% of men to think. stick to feminism, this misandry thing is not pleasant

:rolleyes: Read what I'm saying.

I'm not saying all men are rapists. But this march isn't just aimed at rapists. how could it be aimed at just rapists, is there a small little group of them somewhere?

This march is giving out the message that it is ok for women to wear what they want on a night out without receiving unwanted attention and groping, (and at the extreme end - not being raped).

Cochore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1KHqi9bXc

LeeHoffmann

Yep here we go. Been round this particular roundabout before if memory serves. Responsibility for the rape doesn't have to be shared out 90:10, or 60:40. The rapist is 100% responsible for the act of rape so you can drop that rubbish for a start. Won't even bother with the second part.

You said women cause men to think they're up for it in some way. That means you are saying they are responsible. If you do perceive a difference between being ''up for'' sex and ''up for'' rape then you should also realise the following:
1. Somebody being up for sex doesn't mean they're up for sex with anyone and everyone
2. Being up for being raped is a contradiction in terms (i.e. not possible).

The Big Red Button

midlandsmissus wrote: »

chatterpillar wrote: »

This is disgusting.

I certainly do not think that the way a girl is dressed should EVER be an excuse to rape her.

But what the fck is the point in a big group of girls tarting themselves up and basically proclaiming themselves to be "sluts"? Counterproductive surely?

All it's doing is creating a mental association between the word "slut" and girls who are dressed a certain way. For some, this is creating a link; for others, it is reinforcing an opinion they already held. Either way, can't see how these "slutwalks" could possibly help any cause.

"tarting themselves up" show's your own opinion of girls dressed like this maybe? the whole point of it is it's taking the power out of the word "slut". Why shouldn't women dress how they want to without being groped, or fear of something happening, I think this march is an excellent way forward.

No.

I dress up nicely on a night out. Doesn't mean I want to be groped etc. And I don't like that this campaign implies that, if a girl has a bit of leg or cleavage on display, it suddenly makes her a "slut"

FetchTheGin

chatterpillar wrote: »

No.

I dress up nicely on a night out. Doesn't mean I want to be groped etc. And I don't like that this campaign implies that, if a girl has a bit of leg or cleavage on display, it suddenly makes her a "slut"

I think it is more like a march for the bitter women parade.

There is no agenda apart from a bit of bra-burning and man hating.

prinz

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

You said women cause men to think they're up for it in some way. That means you are saying they are responsible..

Eh, not it doesn't mean that they are responsible for themselves getting raped, and you even helpfully explained why..

1. Somebody being up for sex doesn't mean they're up for sex with anyone and everyone

Matthew23

midlandsmissus wrote: »

:rolleyes: Read what I'm saying.

I'm not saying all men are rapists. But this march isn't just aimed at rapists. how could it be aimed at just rapists, is there a small little group of them somewhere?

This march is giving out the message that it is ok for women to wear what they want on a night out without receiving unwanted attention and groping, (and at the extreme end - not being raped).

i did read what you are saying and it is utter nonsense. the march is giving out the message that it is ok to wear these clothes, fine, but a march doesnt possess some sort of divine providence that will decide that, the march having taken place, women wont get raped or recieve unwanted attention. it is utterly fatuous.

and you may not have intended to say all men are rapists, but the fact is that the vastest majority of men are as far removed from rape as you are from sense, a distinction which you blurred in your remarks.

it is people like you who hold back the advancement of women's rights with the kind of mischaracterisations and bawling nonsense you have spewed here.

midlandsmissus

prinz wrote: »

..and to change the perceptions that it's ok for women to grope men? When is the march for that?

Organize the march for it then . People organize marches about something that affects them.

And I know so many girls who as I have said, have had hands stuck up skirts in nightclubs, and ALOT who have been sexually assaulted back at a house or somewhere like that. It's sadly a common thing.

Why is it happening: I think a huge thing is that many men can differentiate between themselves, what they are doing from that of a "sexual assaulter".

A sexual assault is usually by an acquaintance of a girl. It's not a creepy old man down an alleyway, it usually starts out like: kiss the girl, "no I dont want to do anything more" "ah she said no, but that just means 'not yet' really, if I kiss her a bit more" etc. No one wants to think of themselves as a sexual assaulter obviously.

And this is not men's fault, it's society's. Previous society has taught that; dressing provocatively = wanting sex, and saying no= yes but just needs a bit more persuasion.

First thing we need to get out there is: women have every right to dress how they want without unwanted touching from men.

LeeHoffmann

I think the original aim of such marches is to make clear that female rape victims shouldn't be condemned or held responsible because of their clothes. Then other people turned it into a campaign to 'reclaim' the word slut. I think that's what happened. I see the merit of the former aim but not the latter.

Cianos

chatterpillar wrote: »

No.

I dress up nicely on a night out. Doesn't mean I want to be groped etc. And I don't like that this campaign implies that, if a girl has a bit of leg or cleavage on display, it suddenly makes her a "slut"

It's done in a fairly tongue in cheek way really in fairness. Using derogatory terms in a satirical way is an effective way to reduce their power.

prinz

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Organize the march for it then . People organize marches about something that affects them..

Let's imagine for a minute you are at a hypothetical hen party (when this behaviour I've noticed is more prevalent) and one of your party grabs the ass/crotch/whatever of a random guy at the bar or walking past your group. Would you be shocked and appalled and refer to them as a 'sexual assaulter'?

Societal perceptions are that men should ignore stuff like that. Men don't get sexually assaulted or even raped by women lolz. Getting kissed unasked by some random old wan for a hen dare, sure it's only fun and games. Had your arse grabbed by a girl while standing at the bar, ah sure don't be so serious...

midlandsmissus

Matthew23 wrote: »

i did read what you are saying and it is utter nonsense. the march is giving out the message that it is ok to wear these clothes, fine, but a march doesnt possess some sort of divine providence that will decide that, the march having taken place, women wont get raped or recieve unwanted attention. it is utterly fatuous.

and you may not have intended to say all men are rapists, but the fact is that the vastest majority of men are as far removed from rape as you are from sense, a distinction which you blurred in your remarks.

it is people like you who hold back the advancement of women's rights with the kind of mischaracterisations and bawling nonsense you have spewed here.

Of course the March isn't going to change everything :rolleyes:, what it is aiming to do is get in the news the message that it is okay for women to dress like that and not be groped. Which it has achieved, It is in the news, and we are discussing it here.

"The vastest majority of men are as far removed from rape', how could you possibly know? How do you know what anyone is thinking apart from yourself? Or how could I know? All I know is the many friends who have said to me about being groped in nightclub.

And obviously it has happened to enough women, that they are organising marches about it in several countries.

"No sense, bawling nonsense" it is you sounding bitter not me.:rolleyes:

Scanlas The 2nd

midlandsmissus wrote: »

perceptions need to change, I think they think of "rapists" as far seperate to themselves: a man who breaks into a girls house and rapes her, and differentiate their own behaviour to make it ok.

Sticking your hand up a girls skirt in a club and groping at her crotch as she's walking by in a packed club is sexual assault, just one example I can think of many I've heard.

Women have randomly grabbed my crotch on numerous so occasions without my permission so maybe women's perceptions need to change. Maybe it's a power and dominance thing too. You are not entitled to grab my crotch.

Cianos

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"The vastest majority of men are as far removed from rape', how could you possibly know? How do you know what anyone is thinking apart from yourself? Or how could I know? All I know is the many friends who have said to me about being groped in nightclub.

People making flying accusations on the behavior of all men without anything other than stories about their own friends are not doing much to help the cause.

How many men have your friends not been groped by in clubs? If there were 200 men in a club on a particular night, were your friends groped by over a hundred guys that night? Because that would be the majority. Or did it happen a few times and you then jump to conclude that the vast majority of guys go on with that carry on?

4leto

prinz wrote: »

Let's imagine for a minute you are at a hen party (when this behaviour I've noticed is more prevalent) and one of your party grabs the ass/crotch/whatever of a guy at the bar. Would you be shocked and appalled and refer to them as a 'sexual assaulter'?

Is there a comparison? I have had my ass pinched at a bar and I usually felt chuffed to be honest. BUT that is not a work place or a weaker girl walking home on her own dressed up.

It goes back to freedom, a girl can dress as sexy, or in anything that makes her feel good, as she wants and that never is an excuse or a defence for an unwanted advance.

midlandsmissus

prinz wrote: »

Let's imagine for a minute you are at a hypothetical hen party (when this behaviour I've noticed is more prevalent) and one of your party grabs the ass/crotch/whatever of a random guy at the bar or walking past your group. Would you be shocked and appalled and refer to them as a 'sexual assaulter'?

Societal perceptions are that men should ignore stuff like that. Men don't get sexually assaulted or even raped by women lolz. Getting kissed unasked by some random old wan for a hen dare, sure it's only fun and games. Had your arse grabbed by a girl while standing at the bar, ah sure don't be so serious...

Crotch yes definitely. I've had my ass slapped, pinched on so many nights out that that would be flogging a dead horse. It annoys me but I get on with it.

But one night I was standing in a club, and a guy walked towards me, stuck his hand up my skirt, felt my crotch, and just walked on. I cried for hours after that and felt really violated.

Nobody has the right to manhandle your private parts in public.

TelePaul

Stikes me as a lowest-common-denominator approach to an otherwise important issue.

the_syco

biko wrote: »

I hope they have umbrellas, it's torrential out there.

So the slutwalk will be "wet t-shirt competition"? :pac:

bicardi19 wrote: »

Or stride of pride!!

Wlak of shame - ladies
Stride of pride - lads

=-=

If 18 ugly women get raped, and two good looking drunks get raped, the media will focus on the two good looking drunks.

LeeHoffmann

Eh, not it doesn't mean that they are responsible for themselves getting raped

How can you not be responsible for something if you caused it to occur?

CiaranC

midlandsmissus wrote: »

First thing we need to get out there is: women have every right to dress how they want without unwanted touching from men.

Wow, groundbreaking stuff that. Once men know that is the case it will almost certainly stop.