Irish Slutwalk

Wompa1

strobe wrote: »

Have you really come across it that frequently and in what context?

I mean I've seen it from people when for instance a guy is dancing away on a nightclub floor with a girl and puts his hand on her backside, she flips and tells him to fuck off and he is left saying "we were in a nightclub dancing and I put my hand on her ass, why was she dancing with me all night if she wasn't interested" kind of thing.

But I can absolutely say I have never found it to be a common attitude where a guy walks up to a girl he hasn't so much as smiled at and sticks his hand between her legs and people react saying "well she obviously wanted that she was wearing a short skirt". And it's not that I have lead a sheltered life or the circles I move in are populated by saints or anything. I have had some pretty morally dubious associates over the years for whatever reason and I can absolutely say that 99% of people I have known would think a guy doing that was a freako nutjob and have never been in a situation where the common response to something like that was "she was asking for it".

Have I just been supernaturally fortunate in this regard?

In fairness I've seen a lot of guys who seem to troll a nightclub dance floor for women. But I've never seen what I've heard girls claim e.g. A guy just grabbing their ass or tits. I've seen guys going up behind them and trying dance with them by putting their hand on their hip...which is a p**sy move anyway but I've seen it plenty. I've also seen it work plenty too! But I wouldn't class that as sexual assault or anything.

On the flipside I've had my junk groped or my ass grabbed a few times by women in hen parties or out for a birthday or whatever. I'm not a good looking guy either, I think the hen parties picked on me because I have a bit of a baby face. It was annoying but ya just get on with it.

Frankly, I avoid the pubs where I know hen parties frequent, I also avoid nightclubs these days. I know plenty of girls who claim they want to go to a nightclub because they like to dance but the come on...nightclubs are cattle marts. People are going there to gawk and/or get laid.

flahavaj

skregs wrote: »

A slutwalk is a girl in a raggedy dress walking home at 8 o'clock on Sunday morning after spending the night with some guy she just met.

"Walk it off love."

4leto

prinz wrote: »

Who is being judgemental now? What does it have to do with being prudish? Nothing whatsoever. I just don't see what kind of personal acheievment is gained by sleeping with loads of people for no other reason than getting another notch on a bedpost.

'Look at me I shagged two girls at the weekend'........ well whoopee for you. Is that an achievement? Something special?



I know people who sleep around quite a bit. That doesn't mean I have to approve of it, or congratulate them for it, or be impressed by their latest conquest stories. Why is it you can judge people on a whole host of actions and behaviours, but apply it to promiscuity and you've gone beyond the pale...

I just think its about freedom to express your self the way you are without fear of a reputation, that should be equal among women and men.

Heres a thing.

My mate let me down, I was meant to be going to town with him, (a genuine excuse) but no qualms here I am off tomorrow and all dressed up. So I am going out on my own. You rarely see women, out there, who have gone out on their own, why is that I wonder.

Night night
Gone drinking.

On my own.

PrincessLola

Its my hot body, I do what I want!

I totally support the slutwalks, all you haters can hate!;)

wild_cat

PrincessLola wrote: »

Its my hot body, I do what I want!

I totally support the slutwalks, all you haters can hate!;)

Don't give them fuel for ffs.

enfant terrible

How slutty are we talking.

Fuhrer

PrincessLola wrote: »

Its my hot body, I do what I want!

I totally support the slutwalks, all you haters can hate!;)

Rapist: "Its my penis, I do what I want"

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Yeah but attention = okay. Being groped and at the extreme end: raped is not.
It's making men sound like neanderthals who can't control themselves when they see a bit of leg. What next, we will all be dressed as muslim women because men can't control themselves seeing a bit of flesh? I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

Generalise much?

midlandsmissus wrote: »

FetchtheGin I'm not even talking about that police officer, don't tell me you haven't heard before : she was asking for it, she was dressed provocatively.

No she wasn't asking for it, these perceptions need to change.

Have never heard anybody saying this before... Only hear people talk about people saying it, which is normally bullshít.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

:rolleyes: Read what I'm saying.

I'm not saying all men are rapists. But this march isn't just aimed at rapists. how could it be aimed at just rapists, is there a small little group of them somewhere?

This march is giving out the message that it is ok for women to wear what they want on a night out without receiving unwanted attention and groping, (and at the extreme end - not being raped).

Women can wear what ever they want, but if your títs are hanging out then expect attention, if I can see your raspberry ripple because your skirt is shorter than my belt, expect attention. Expect to be gawked at.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Organize the march for it then . People organize marches about something that affects them.

And I know so many girls who as I have said, have had hands stuck up skirts in nightclubs, and ALOT who have been sexually assaulted back at a house or somewhere like that. It's sadly a common thing.

Why is it happening: I think a huge thing is that many men can differentiate between themselves, what they are doing from that of a "sexual assaulter".

A sexual assault is usually by an acquaintance of a girl. It's not a creepy old man down an alleyway, it usually starts out like: kiss the girl, "no I dont want to do anything more" "ah she said no, but that just means 'not yet' really, if I kiss her a bit more" etc. No one wants to think of themselves as a sexual assaulter obviously.

And this is not men's fault, it's society's. Previous society has taught that; dressing provocatively = wanting sex, and saying no= yes but just needs a bit more persuasion.

First thing we need to get out there is: women have every right to dress how they want without unwanted touching from men.

If you know that many people who has been sexually assaulted, there's something not quite right somewhere...

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"The vastest majority of men are as far removed from rape', how could you possibly know? How do you know what anyone is thinking apart from yourself? Or how could I know?

Are you having a laugh??? This is very offensive and absolute pure crap.

And obviously it has happened to enough women, that they are organising marches about it in several countries.

"No sense, bawling nonsense" it is you sounding bitter not me.:rolleyes:

I'd say the majority of the women in the march have never been "sexually assaulted", but just jumping on the band wagon due to some bitterness towards men.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Crotch yes definitely. I've had my ass slapped, pinched on so many nights out that that would be flogging a dead horse. It annoys me but I get on with it.

But one night I was standing in a club, and a guy walked towards me, stuck his hand up my skirt, felt my crotch, and just walked on. I cried for hours after that and felt really violated.

Nobody has the right to manhandle your private parts in public.

Did you phone the police or just cry about it? Why didn't you do something about it? How did he have the time to do all that? Didn't you react somehow? Sorry, it's the way you explain it that it seems unusual.

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

How can you not be responsible for something if you caused it to occur?

Having a laugh?

The King of Moo wrote: »

While I don't condone women groping men either, I believe that there usually is a difference in terms of power relations.

If a girl gropes a guy it's a rare event, but guys grope girls much more often, you can see that in any nightclub on any night. Therefore it's much more tiresome for women.

Bullshít, absolute rubbish. You know what equality is?



Any sexual assault is bad, but being a woman doesn't make it worse. It's equally as painful and disrespectful for men too.

"It's ok for a man to get gropped but for a woman, that's just wrong" This attitude has to gtfo...

Jess16

I can imagine the reaction if a group of guys paraded around acting like dickheads in order to prove not they're dickheads. What's next -burglars robbing houses to prove they aren't thieves?!

This concept thinks it's so postmodern and clever, it's not. It's disturbing at best and irresponsible at worst. These are not the kind of inappropriate aspirations that should be presented to impressionable young people. Don't dress like a slut, don't act like a slut and you probably won't be called a slut. It's called common sense and self-respect.

The King of Moo

Eileen Old-fashioned Sack wrote: »

Bullshít, absolute rubbish. You know what equality is?


"It's ok for a man to get gropped but for a woman, that's just wrong" This attitude has to gtfo...

Of course I know what it is, but the vast majority of men and women are not equal in terms of physical strength. That's just biological fact, and it means groping or worse can be more intimidating for a woman.
I believe that men and women are equal in terms of intelligence etc. but you can't apply that sense of equality to biology.
Therefore the experience of sexual advances up to the level of arse-grabbing is not equal among men and women, generally.

And I'd never argue that it's ok for a man to get groped. But it doesn't normally have the same intimidation factor it can have for women being pestered by a man.
I abhor all sexual assault, from groping in a club to rape, no matter the gender of those involved, as any sane person would.
In fact, woman-on-man rape does occur, just not so commonly and it's rarely reported.

But man-on-woman rape happens more often as it's easier for a man to commit rape.

And while sexual assault is always terrible, more minor stuff like arse-grabbing is generally experienced differently by men and women.

jinxremoving

Eileen Old-fashioned Sack wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Yeah but attention = okay. Being groped and at the extreme end: raped is not.
It's making men sound like neanderthals who can't control themselves when they see a bit of leg. What next, we will all be dressed as muslim women because men can't control themselves seeing a bit of flesh? I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

Generalise much?

midlandsmissus wrote: »

FetchtheGin I'm not even talking about that police officer, don't tell me you haven't heard before : she was asking for it, she was dressed provocatively.

No she wasn't asking for it, these perceptions need to change

Did you phone the police or just cry about it? Why didn't you do something about it? How did he have the time to do all that? Didn't you react somehow? Sorry, it's the way you explain it that it seems unusual.

The last part of your quote is exactly the type of thing you deny ever happens at all.
'why didnt you do something about it?' instead of 'why did he do that,terrible'. Doubting the story altogether and placing blame on the victim instead of the assaulter. Comments such as maybe she led him on,maybe she shouldn't have gone home with him,maybe she should have dressed more conservatively,she shouldn't have been drunk and it wouldn't have hppened?all these comments neglect do place the blame where it belongs-on the rapist.if you think that attitudes that the slutwalk were protesting against don't happen in Ireland,then you are kidding yourself.They are so engrained that you don't even notice them as being wrong.

Apologies for typos,ipod!

youcrazyjesus!

I think it's a great idea, not at all a waste of time and resources. It will really hit home the revolutionary message to the vast majority of men who think that rape is acceptable once the victim is wearing a shirt skirt. It might even deter potential rapists, such is the power of this new message to the world. And for the cynics who say its a pointless exercise designed only to boost the egos of self righteous rent-a-cause sexist snobs, I say you're wrong.

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Of course the March isn't going to change everything :rolleyes:, what it is aiming to do is get in the news the message that it is okay for women to dress like that and not be groped. Which it has achieved, It is in the news, and we are discussing it here.

"The vastest majority of men are as far removed from rape', how could you possibly know? How do you know what anyone is thinking apart from yourself? Or how could I know? All I know is the many friends who have said to me about being groped in nightclub.

And obviously it has happened to enough women, that they are organising marches about it in several countries.

"No sense, bawling nonsense" it is you sounding bitter not me.:rolleyes:

Saying stuff like this is incredibly stupid and ignorant on a human race level. Also, your constant use of the ":rolleyes:" has you coming across as both condescending and patronising.

The brush you're using to tar an entire sex here is far too large and I don't like getting covered in it's splash, I'd suggest you put more thought into your posts or failing that, refrain from contributing further.

HazDanz

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I think it's a great idea, not at all a waste of time and resources. It will really hit home the revolutionary message to the vast majority of men who think that rape is acceptable once the victim is wearing a shirt skirt. It might even deter potential rapists, such is the power of this new message to the world. And for the cynics who say its a pointless exercise designed only to boost the egos of self righteous rent-a-cause sexist snobs, I say you're wrong.

FFS :rolleyes:

Hockney

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Unless the girl was a virgin and the rapist broke in to her house with a knife at her throat, people tend to question what the girl did to "lead him on"

Do you honestly think that most people would really ask such a question? If so, then IMO all of your ranting is against a problem which doesn't exist.

IMO general society lays the responsibilty for rape crimes firmly at the hands of rapists.

Who exactly are the nutcases who think she may have "led him on"? And what percentage of us do you think feel this way? Seems alien to me, and the company I keep.

Robdude

4leto wrote: »

But that is rubbish,

You there I assume you are not a rapist, so would you ever be tempted to, because of what a women is wearing.

Or lets assume you picked up at a night club went back to, say hers and to spite her wearing NOTHING and she changes her mind and says NO.

Do you say well she is wearing nothing, so I am justified in overpowering her and getting my end away.

A rape is a rapist state of mind, it has nothing to do with a woman or what she is wearing Like we are not that helpless or out of control.

I'm *not* claiming that what a woman wears impacts the odds of her being raped. I am saying that *if* data collected shows a correlation between dressing slutty and rape, it would be advisable to suggest women avoid dressing slutty.

To the best of my knowledge, such data is *not* collected; I have not seen any reliable statistics on the topic. But that doesn't mean a correlation does or does not exist.

Again, I'm not saying this is how it 'should' be. I'm not saying women wearing nothing should be unable to say no. I'm *not* say that it is justification for raping women.

I *am* saying that a good way to avoid crime is to avoid the things associated with crime. It's not perfect, but it works most of the time. With other crimes, we tell people how to avoid high-risk activities.

Read this: http://www.romanhomes.com/your_roman_vacation/pickpockets.htm

There are countless sites and lists like it. It talks about how to avoid being a victim. It doesn't blame victims or claim that not doing things justifies the criminal's actions. It's just ways to avoid or reduce the likelihood of being a victim.

Why can we openly acknowledge patterns about pick pocketing and provide information on how to avoid it; but not on rape? That seems silly to me.

jill_valentine

Hockney wrote: »

Do you honestly think that most people would really ask such a question? If so, then IMO all of your ranting is against a problem which doesn't exist.

IMO general society lays the responsibilty for rape crimes firmly at the hands of rapists.

Who exactly are the nutcases who think she may have "led him on"? And what percentage of us do you think feel this way? Seems alien to me, and the company I keep.

I promise you can and will find examples of same in just about every single boards.ie thread about a rape where there was any room for even the slightest ambiguity, ever.

You will find people ask, rhetorically, if there was "more to this than meets the eye" about cases they have absolutely no knowledge of, almost like clockwork, by the second page.

scotchy

enfant terrible wrote: »

How slutty are we talking.

From the pics Ive seen, not slutty at all.

:mad:

.

K-9

Roisy7 wrote: »

I was there in Galway today to cover the march for the college newspaper.

While (of course as a woman who likes her fashion) I believe that women should be able to wear what they want without being targeted for sexual assault, I'm not entirely sure myself of the whole Slutwalk concept. The problem with any feminist movement these days is that a lot of people immediately get the image of humourless, man-hating "dykes".

Reclaiming the word slut like the gay community reclaims queer is admirable but it doesn't stop the word slut being used as an insult, just like it doesn't stop homophobes using "queer" and "******" as insults.

But:

I don't think anyone in the Slutwalk movement claims that it'll stop rapists. Predatory rapists will rape. It's the attitude of the public that needs to change. It's only a few years since a rapist's hand was shaken in a courtroom in this country by people who saw him as one of the lads. As far as I can see it's the people doing the hand-shaking that SlutWalk aims to educate, not the rapist.

I don't necessarily think its the most effective way to educate them. The march coincided with lunchtime in Galway's schools, and some schoolboys passed remarks at the marchers.

These lads need to be educated, and educated in school: They need to be reminded again and again that women are someone's sister, mother, daughter and they need respect. There seems to be a strong current of misogyny in today's pop culture and it needs to be countered. Likewise, girls should be told that not all men are bastards, we need to cut men some slack sometimes.

Finally, some posters mentioned the power dynamic involved in rape. Rape is about dominance. The dominance of the strong over the weak. Women are still physically weaker, something I feel often as a very petite girl is my vulnerability at times.

I spoke to a representative from the Rape Crisis Network and she told me there was no evidence that attire made a difference to rates of rape. In fact, the people who get raped most often are children

Sorry for the length of post.

The ould, defunct Tribune did a survey on 16/17 year old lads and yep, the idea that a girl with a low top and short skirt is more up for it, is still very prevalent.

I don't blame the 16/17 year old. Something else is up. Blame the parents and older people on here who think it has something to do with it? Maybe. They should know better.

Huge prevalence of porn? Meh. Always been there but it's more prevalent so maybe that's part of it.

I've a couple of years to get my young lad to cop himself on.

CoolHat

I heard of this before but read the wikipedia link the op provided.
I am shaking my head as I write this. This is retarded. Dont care if anyone wants to dispute me.

I reckon this is just the college demographic ... ok i paused writing this and put slut walk into google images. Suprise, suprise, 99% of people in the photos i saw fall into the "college demographic"


Grow the f*ck up!
why is it generally college students who protest?
- "save the wales, man!"
- "stop the war, man!"
- "mother earth is an entity, man!"

holystungun9

Is it like on Jerry Springer or something? We have to guess which ones are men?

Napper Hawkins

HazDanz wrote: »

FFS :rolleyes:

I might be wrong, but I think he/she is being sarcastic.

Joe10000

I think it is a vulgar demonstration, feminism goes way over board at times.

Rape is a terrible crime but I cannot see how this protest will do anything to advance the cause of women.

Scanlas The 2nd

The King of Moo wrote: »

I believe that men and women are equal in terms of intelligence etc. but you can't apply that sense of equality to biology.
.

You might want to review that belief. IQ tests have shown again and again that men are on average more intelligent than women. Also white people are smarter than black people and asian smarter than white people on average. Although per inch of height women are smarter than men. So if you picked an man and woman randomly chances are the man would be smarter, but if you picked a 5 foot 9 man and woman randomly chances are the woman would be smarter.

WhatNowForUs?

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

You might want to review that belief. IQ tests have shown again and again that men are on average more intelligent than women. Also white people are smarter than black people and asian smarter than white people on average. Although per inch of height women are smarter than men. So if you picked an man and woman randomly chances are the man would be smarter, but if you picked a 5 foot 9 man and woman randomly chances are the woman would be smarter.

This gives statistics a bad name.

WhatNowForUs?

Have we any pictures come through yet.

K-9

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

This gives statistics a bad name.

I thought it was, more women tended to be of average intelligence, whereas men were more likely to either be very intelligent or not!

FetchTheGin

4leto wrote: »

They are not protesting about what they wear. They are protesting against attitudes and assumptions taken about what they wear. Attitudes like yours, which to be frank, is saying to me a woman is complicit in her rape by what she is wearing and a woman deserves to be treated derogatory and as a sex object by what she chooses to wear.

I know what you are saying, they have an option, to dress in sexless clothes like a nijab or as Mao Chinese women use to.

All they want to do is highlight attitudes, that's all, that may not change anything but it will add to awareness of the women's cause in general.

It's hysterical assumptions like that, that give people like you a stick to beat others with.

As I said earlier in the thread, no one should have to endure assault and should be able to wear what they like.

It is amazing, some idiot makes a comment and the entire gender gets punished.

scotchy

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Have we any pictures come through yet.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1006/1224305330341.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/in-pictures-women-hit-streets-for-slutwalk-protest-246276-Oct2011/

Not really that slutty

:mad:

.

LeeHoffmann

I thought it was, more women tended to be of average intelligence, whereas men were more likely to either be very intelligent or not!

I think it's a joke

veryangryman

Check out the badges that you can buy - picture on the bottom of wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

Sign me up for 10!

Scanlas The 2nd

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

This gives statistics a bad name.

It's true.Google the studies.

baltimore sun

sluts are awesome, most of us would still be virgins if it wasn't for them, god bless their cotton socks for keeping their ankles warm

LeeHoffmann

It's true.Google the studies.

From the studies I've read, it's been showed that men have greater variety in IQ (i.e. more men at either extreme) not that they have greater average IQ. Asian people have consistently performed better on IQ tests than any other ethnic group. Black people have tended to score lower but again, studies have shown that subtle cues such as having a black invigilator rather than a white invigilator (as an example) is correlated with significant increase in IQ scores. Moreover, self-efficacy is widely accepted to be one of the key components of academic performance so your assertion that white men get better scores seems like a bit of a no-brainer, rather than some immutable biological law.

Scanlas The 2nd

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

From the studies I've read, it's been showed that men have greater variety in IQ (i.e. more men at either extreme) not that they have greater average IQ. Asian people have consistently performed better on IQ tests than any other ethnic group. Black people have tended to score lower but again, studies have shown that subtle cues such as having a black invigilator rather than a white invigilator (as an example) is correlated with significant increase in IQ scores. Moreover, self-efficacy is widely accepted to be one of the key components of academic performance so your assertion that white men get better scores seems like a bit of a no-brainer, rather than some immutable biological law.

It's also been shown consistently across the world in numerous studies that men's IQs are between 3-5 points higher than women's on average as well as having a a higher variance of IQ levels.

How does self efficacy explain that a 5 foot 10 woman on average scores higher than a 5 foot 10 man.?

LeeHoffmann

If you understand the meaning of the term 'self efficacy' the answer should be clear to you. I have never seen a study that showed that - not one, never mind it being consistently shown. Self-efficacy is likely to account for such variances though imo. Never mind the fallibility and narrow-mindedness of the tests themselves. Taking all of this and the histry of IQ testing into account, I do not accept for one second that white people are more intelligent than black people or that men are more intelligent than women or that tall people are more intelligent than short people (even with your qualifier 'on average'). I'd question the intelligence of somebody who does.

jackie1974

I do not like this idea at all. I think the feminist movement will have the opposite effect using the word 'slut' It's like we're sluts and we're proud. 'Slut' is a label and it will never be a nice one.

I totally agree that everybody is entitled to their sexual freedom, I can sleep with who I want when I want, that does not make me a slut, so as long as i'm sexually healthy and not putting anybody elses health at risk i'm entitled to have sex. It certainly does not make me a slut.


There is a lot of psychological evidence that shows people react to others according to what they see. Just one example, research has shown that good looking people get reduced sentences in court for the exact same offences as somebody not so good looking. Studies show that a good looking person will more likely have a door held for them, get more help while shopping etc.. purely because of how they look. This shows we are treated according to how we look whether we like it or not, it doesn't make it right but it is a fact.

A woman should be able to walk out naked without the fear of being attacked, there is no such thing as a rape victim that deserves it, was asking for it etc.. but there's dirty cnuts out there that every female needs to do everything possible to protect herself from and that includes not falling around full of drink with very little on, it is a recipe for disaster. I see it all of the time when i'm collecting my daughters from disco's, there's kids with skirts that do not cover their asses and belly tops tottering around in heels like baby giraffes, half pissed, they are at risk, they don't deserve to be at risk but they are. They are not old enough to protect themselves and their clothes make a potential rapist think they are fair game, when a rapist looks at a girl he thinks looks slutty he has already dehumanised her and will rape her with no remorse. It's wrong but that is the way it is and I don't think a slut parade is going to change the way a rapist thinks if anything it's going to do the opposite.

I get the idea of the parade, we should be able to wear what we like but we should also be able to leave our doors unlocked, leave our kids walk to school alone, leave our handbags on the table when we go to the loo, leave our drinks unattended but we live in a messed up world where we have to take precautions, if anything I think the parade and it's sentiments will put more women at risk.

LeeHoffmann

Again the slut parade has two different aims - 1. to reclaim the word slut. 2 - to challenge the notion that women are responsible (to some degree) for being raped if they weear revealing clothes.
In relation to aim 1, I agree with you jackie, and I'd draw parallels with the way that some black people call each other 'nig*er' - i don't think it helps. In relation to aim 2, I think the slutwalk has a valid purpose. It is standard policy in rape cases, to discuss the victim's clothing and the number of sexual partners she's had - as if that has any impact on the guilt or innocence of the accused. As if he's less guilty (or more guilty) because of what she's wearing or because of how many men she's slept with in life.

smash

Did anyone actually go to this?

Dyr

dope:"how can we avoid being run over by car's ossifer?"

copper: "maybe look both ways before you cross, and if you're on unlit roads wear high visiblity apparel or at least avoid dark clothing"

dope:"are you telling me how to dress just so some MAN won't run me over??"

copper:"ehhh...yewha'?"

dope: "THATS IT, WE'RE GOING ON A JAYWALK...EVERYONE DRESS LIKE GOTHS"

and thus the human race gets slowly more retarded...

jackie1974

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Again the slut parade has two different aims - 1. to reclaim the word slut. 2 - to challenge the notion that women are responsible (to some degree) for being raped if they weear revealing clothes.
In relation to aim 1, I agree with you jackie, and I'd draw parallels with the way that some black people call each other 'nig*er' - i don't think it helps. In relation to aim 2, I think the slutwalk has a valid purpose. It is standard policy in rape cases, to discuss the victim's clothing and the number of sexual partners she's had - as if that has any impact on the guilt or innocence of the accused. As if he's less guilty (or more guilty) because of what she's wearing or because of how many men she's slept with in life.

I agree, the victims clothing or no. of sexual partners has absolutely no bearing on the the accuseds guilt or innocence, none whatsoever.

As far as I know the first rally was suppossed to marched in everyday clothes not what is percieved to be 'slutty' and the 'slut' reference was directly from M S's comment but the public decided to come wearing 'slutty' clothes which kind of changed the whole idea behind the march.

FetchTheGin

jackie1974 wrote: »

I agree, the victims clothing or no. of sexual partners has absolutely no bearing on the the accuseds guilt or innocence, none whatsoever.

As far as I know the first rally was suppossed to marched in everyday clothes not what is percieved to be 'slutty' and the 'slut' reference was directly from M S's comment but the public decided to come wearing 'slutty' clothes which kind of changed the whole idea behind the march.

Which concludes that it was a "march against the evil menz".

The King of Moo

I think people still suggesting that women should perhaps take a little more care with how they dress on a night out are missing the point that that would probably have very little impact on rape statistics.

As has already been pointed out, most rapes are committed by a partner, close friend or family member, not by a stranger on a night out.

Secondly, rape is generally not committed out of sexual desire or frustration, but out of a desire to demonstrate one's power over another.

I doubt clothes are ever a factor in a rape case. What's more important to a rapist is having their victim in a vulnerable position where they can get away with it, not what they look like.

Would women wearing less-revealing clothes on nights out mean that they'd not get groped and leered at as much? Probably, but it wouldn't eliminate the problem.
And most women dress up to look good in their own eyes (like most men do) and from their friends' perspective, not just to attract a man.
Sure, if she looks nice she should expect to turn heads, but she shouldn't expect to be grabbed by the arse or crotch.

Anyway, I find it ridiculous when other men argue that girls wouldn't get unwanted sleazy attention if they dressed more conservatively.
Wouldn't it make more sense to argue that girls wouldn't get unwanted sleazy attention if lots of men in pubs and clubs didn't act like areseholes?

Some people have argued that the issue of men questioning whether the issue of women wearing revealing clothes leads men on is an issue that exists.
While it's not universal, it does exist.

I've heard it a few times regarding rape, and heard of a few cases of guards laughing at women who come to them after being raped.

And even just on the issue of groping, the number of men here questioning women's choice of clothes and not the neanderthal mentality of men who grope women, shows that at the very least the seeds of that attitude exist.

Scanlas The 2nd

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

If you understand the meaning of the term 'self efficacy' the answer should be clear to you. I have never seen a study that showed that - not one, never mind it being consistently shown. Self-efficacy is likely to account for such variances though imo. Never mind the fallibility and narrow-mindedness of the tests themselves. Taking all of this and the histry of IQ testing into account, I do not accept for one second that white people are more intelligent than black people or that men are more intelligent than women or that tall people are more intelligent than short people (even with your qualifier 'on average'). I'd question the intelligence of somebody who does.

Deny reality all you want.

http://www.iqtestexperts.com/iq-better.php


If self efficacy allows men to perform better than women in IQ tests why does this phenomenon allow women of the the same height to perform better? You are clinging to your fantasy of reality you want to be true. You aren't looking at this objectively, you are biased because of your ego.

dsmythy

Reclaim the word slut? Women use it against each other all the time. Several slutwalks in America have turned into lesbian walks instead. I wonder why

LeeHoffmann

:pac: thanks for that. That could be a nice catchphrase - I might put it as my signature.
Lee Hoffmann: biased because of my ego

4leto

I always thought that that assertion about rapist is false, that rape is about power only, its not, its about sexual pleasure or sexual relief from a very strong drive.

I know that is a controversial view, championed by some psychologists, but I think they are right and when dealing with somethings you are better off dealing with the facts.

It could be argued that all relationships is a power dynamic even loving ones.

But anyway, what I see in this thread there are 2 types of male poster, those that think women have enough equality and should be happy with their lot. Or the other as in my position women have not got equality and still have a long way to go.

Do you ever think about the worldwide position of women, its appalling, in most the world they are little more then chattel. In India a father sells them, then hands them off and virtually disowns them, in China its the same, in the moslem world they are merely male concubines and slaves (imo) and in the western tradition the father gives them away. These are all just attitudes and expectations from a tradition of male power.

I don't think it has to be that way, in Ireland and the west women have garnered a lot of equality, but our attitudes have to follow. The slutwalk is another step towards that.

LeeHoffmann

I always thought that that assertion about rapist is false, that rape is about power only, its not, its about sexual pleasure or sexual relief from a very strong drive.

There are people who have 'sexual addiction' who don't go raping other people. How do you account for that? One would imagine that there are other ways of getting relief rather than by attacking people. If rape were about sexual relief and pleasure, one would imagine that rapists would feel remorse afterwards. I think that lumping all rapists and all cases of rape into one category with one singular cause is lazy. Power and domination is certainly a factor. However, I also think that some people fancy sex, can't get it, don't give a sh1t about others' feelings so they rape somebody. They may enjoy humiliating the other person, even when that wasn't their primary motivation.

Rape isn't caused primarily by sexual attraction, otherwise people would be out raping people they're attracted to all the time, and only attractive people would get raped. I believe people rape others because they don't care one jot about the welfare of others. For some, a desire to cause destruction and pain, or a compulsion to prove that they are powerful plays a part. What you don't see is caring people attacking the people they're attracted to.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

The King of Moo wrote: »

Of course I know what it is, but the vast majority of men and women are not equal in terms of physical strength. That's just biological fact, and it means groping or worse can be more intimidating for a woman.

I believe that men and women are equal in terms of intelligence etc. but you can't apply that sense of equality to biology.
Therefore the experience of sexual advances up to the level of arse-grabbing is not equal among men and women, generally.

Oh it sure is. There should be no special treatment for either sex when it comes to sexual assault. We should not be lenient on women because they are women.

And I'd never argue that it's ok for a man to get groped. But it doesn't normally have the same intimidation factor it can have for women being pestered by a man.
I abhor all sexual assault, from groping in a club to rape, no matter the gender of those involved, as any sane person would.
In fact, woman-on-man rape does occur, just not so commonly and it's rarely reported.

But man-on-woman rape happens more often as it's easier for a man to commit rape.

And while sexual assault is always terrible, more minor stuff like arse-grabbing is generally experienced differently by men and women.

It can be experienced differently depending on the person, not the sex of that person. Some women love it, some men hate it. This is something we must change...

The last part of your quote is exactly the type of thing you deny ever happens at all.
'why didnt you do something about it?' instead of 'why did he do that,terrible'. Doubting the story altogether and placing blame on the victim instead of the assaulter.

I did not place blame on the "Victim". I am trying to understand how all this happened and what was done to prevent it from happening or stop it while it was happening. It's because of how this story has been presented that I am wary of it's truth. Maybe it is exaggerated for some reason? Maybe it happened in a split second and she didn't have time to react? I want to understand what she did afterwards, if she done anything at all as it wasn't mentioned in the post.

Comments such as maybe she led him on,maybe she shouldn't have gone home with him,maybe she should have dressed more conservatively,she shouldn't have been drunk and it wouldn't have hppened?all these comments neglect do place the blame where it belongs-on the rapist.if you think that attitudes that the slutwalk were protesting against don't happen in Ireland,then you are kidding yourself.They are so engrained that you don't even notice them as being wrong.

Apologies for typos,ipod!

Agree totally. Not a single % of the blame should be put on the victim, regardless of what scenario she is in. Walking naked through an area with a high rape % is simply retarded, but she still doesn't deserve it.

Also;

www.clotheslineproject.org/No_Means_No.htm

iptba

dsmythy wrote: »

Reclaim the word slut? Women use it against each other all the time.

You stole my point - I was just reading the 20th page thinking I could make this point and then you say it!

Anyway, better add something:
It was a feminist society who organised the march and feminists, probably particularly the more committed who might join such a society, have a tendency to blame men for anything and everything.