Gay & Believing - Is there room for both?

old hippy · 10-10-2011 4:53pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

I didn't choose to be religious. I was born again that way.

You chose to accept Jesus/God etc

DublinRescuer · 10-10-2011 5:00pm

Didnt s/he compare it to an addiction??

PDN · 10-10-2011 5:11pm

old hippy wrote: »

You chose to be religious. Gays don't choose to be gay. They're born that way.

That's an interesting assertion, but the scientific evidence appears to be a bit more ambiguous. It is far from clear how much of someone's sexual identification stems from environment and how much from genetics.

And, once again, you are hopelessly muddling the distinction between 'being gay' and engaging in homosexual acts.

Take the example of men in prison who don't self-identify as gay, but happily rodger other men while they are behind bars. Historic Christian thought would see their sexual activities in jail as no better or worse than that of two men who hook up after a few drinks in The George. This is because it is the act that is considered immoral, not the self-identification.

A lot of damage has been visited on homosexuals in the name of religion. I can't say a lot of damage has been visited on religious folk in the name of homosexuality - can you?

Blanket assertions about 'religion' tend to be lazy expressions of prejudice.

It is rare for any minority group to persecute others, so I hardly expect homosexuals as a group to be persecuting anyone. However, even members of seemingly benign minorities can be extremely nasty in the rare occasions that they are given enough power. Ever hear of the Buganda martyrs - young men who were castrated, dismembered & butchered by a Ugandan king because their Christian faith caused them to refuse to allow him to bugger them?

Homosexual rape is a frequent method of torture, and has been utilised by American soldiers in Iraq because they know that their victims Muslim faith will cause them to feel a greater measure of shame at being raped.

The fact is that human beings, being prone to sin, are capable of intolerance and causing suffering to others. Neither the religious, nor the irreligious have a monopoly on this. And homosexuals appear to be no better, or worse, than others given the right circumstances.

Thankfully we live in a Western democracy where it is getting rarer for religious people or irreligious people to cause genuine suffering by their intolerance.

old hippy · 10-10-2011 5:17pm

PDN wrote: »

That's an interesting assertion, but the scientific evidence appears to be a bit more ambiguous. It is far from clear how much of someone's sexual identification stems from environment and how much from genetics.

And, once again, you are hopelessly muddling the distinction between 'being gay' and engaging in homosexual acts.

Take the example of men in prison who don't self-identify as gay, but happily rodger other men while they are behind bars. Historic Christian thought would see their sexual activities in jail as no better or worse than that of two men who hook up after a few drinks in The George. This is because it is the act that is considered immoral, not the self-identification.

Blanket assertions about 'religion' tend to be lazy expressions of prejudice.

It is rare for any minority group to persecute others, so I hardly expect homosexuals as a group to be persecuting anyone. However, even members of seemingly benign minorities can be extremely nasty in the rare occasions that they are given enough power. Ever hear of the Buganda martyrs - young men who were castrated, dismembered & butchered by a Ugandan king because their Christian faith caused them to refuse to allow him to bugger them?

Homosexual rape is a frequent method of torture, and has been utilised by American soldiers in Iraq because they know that their victims Muslim faith will cause them to feel a greater measure of shame at being raped.

The fact is that human beings, being prone to sin, are capable of intolerance and causing suffering to others. Neither the religious, nor the irreligious have a monopoly on this. And homosexuals appear to be no better, or worse, than others given the right circumstances.

Thankfully we live in a Western democracy where it is getting rarer for religious people or irreligious people to cause genuine suffering by their intolerance.

Ah, now we get to the bottom of it. It's the homosexual act(s) that exclude belonging to the church?

Is anal sex frowned upon between two consenting heterosexuals?

PDN · 10-10-2011 5:26pm

old hippy wrote: »

Ah, now we get to the bottom of it. It's the homosexual act(s) that exclude belonging to the church?

Jesus wept! Facepalm time!

What do you mean that now we get to the bottom of it? That's the very point that has been made in every one of the hundreds of stupid threads that unbelievers start in this forum on the subject of homosexuality.

Is anal sex frowned upon between two consenting heterosexuals?

The Bible does not comment on that.

In my opinion it would depend on whether they are married to each other or not. It doesn't personally float my boat (I don't find poop to be erotic) but if a man and wife like to get their kicks that way then I don't have a problem.

Of course, if they are not practising Christians, then it is no skin off my nose what heterosexuals or homosexuals choose to do in bed providing they are consenting adults. I see no reason why non-Christians should live by Christian standards of morality.

old hippy · 10-10-2011 5:29pm

PDN wrote: »

Jesus wept! Facepalm time!

What do you mean that now we get to the bottom of it? That's the very point that has been made in every one of the hundreds of stupid threads that unbelievers start in this forum on the subject of homosexuality.

The Bible does not comment on that.

In my opinion it would depend on whether they are married to each other or not. It doesn't personally float my boat (I don't find poop to be erotic) but if a man and wife like to get their kicks that way then I don't have a problem.

Of course, if they are not practising Christians, then it is no skin off my nose what heterosexuals or homosexuals choose to do in bed providing they are consenting adults. I see no reason why non-Christians should live by Christian standards of morality.

I don't find poop particularly erotic, either. Dunno who does but that's not what that rite of passage, so to speak, is about.

Anyway, I fear I'm bringing this thread into disrepute, so I shall say adieu for this evening.

Take care x

Keaton · 11-10-2011 1:36am

The purpose of our lives is to give glory to God.

As the old Catechism used to put it:

Q. Why did God make you?
A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.

Q. What must we do to save our souls?
A. To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in
Him, and love Him with all our heart.

I think the OP is asking the question: Is is possible to engage in homosexual acts and, at the same time, be at rights with God? The answer to that would be no. You cannot serve two masters: God and sin. No, we must choose. If we choose a life of sin, so be it. If we choose a life with Christ, great. God is merciful, and He is patient. He will give us all the grace in the world to make us a saint.

Sometimes, a conversion from a life of sin happens in an instant, but it seems to me more common that conversion is a gradual thing. Indeed, it is a battle, a spiritual battle. Whether in an instant or gradually, our conversion is a lifelong process and in all cases requires us to engage in spiritual battle. If we fall, then we have recourse to God's mercy and forgiveness through the Sacrament of Penance.

There is plenty of useful information at Pure Love Club, an apostolate of Catholic Answers.

antiskeptic · 11-10-2011 7:59am

old hippy wrote: »

You chose to accept Jesus/God etc

Only in the sense that a rubber duck (me) squeaks when run over by a truck (God). Where 'squeaks" represents "I accept"

Could the duck choose not to squeak? I don't think so.

antiskeptic · 11-10-2011 8:06am

DublinRescuer wrote: »

Didnt s/he compare it to an addiction??

He took another area of life (to homo sexuality) where someone finds it impossible to act other than in the way they are acting (eg: the drug addict) and asked should they (the drug addict) be expected to stop taking drugs, just like that, just because they become a Christian.

My suggestion was that they shouldn't be expected to stop just like that just because they become a Christian.

I did this to challenge the somewhat simplistic suggestions some were making about what a homosexual should do if a Christian. A comparison was indeed drawn - not in the sense of supposing homo sexuality an addiction. But in order that the simplistic demands some were making could be more easily seen to be simplistic demands.

Demands that God himself, in all likelyhood wouldn't simplistically make.

old hippy · 11-10-2011 12:43pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Only in the sense that a rubber duck (me) squeaks when run over by a truck (God). Where 'squeaks" represents "I accept"

Could the duck choose not to squeak? I don't think so.

So you got run over and now you worship the driver?

That sounds like an abusive relationship to me...

antiskeptic · 11-10-2011 2:48pm

old hippy wrote: »

So you got run over and now you worship the driver?

That sounds like an abusive relationship to me...

It wasn't so much the truck that did the damage. It was the load it was carrying.

My sin.

wolfsbane · 12-10-2011 8:00pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Only in the sense that a rubber duck (me) squeaks when run over by a truck (God). Where 'squeaks" represents "I accept"

Could the duck choose not to squeak? I don't think so.

I've got to remember that one!

wolfsbane · 12-10-2011 8:02pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

It wasn't so much the truck that did the damage. It was the load it was carrying.

My sin.

Superb!

antiskeptic · 12-10-2011 11:07pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

I've got to remember that one!

Vroom, Vroom .. Quack!

Keaton · 13-10-2011 2:50am

antiskeptic wrote: »

It wasn't so much the truck that did the damage. It was the load it was carrying.

My sin.

Do you mean your sin damaged Jesus, or you? As I see it, it would be both.

[This has been bugging me for a while, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.]

antiskeptic · 13-10-2011 1:41pm

Keaton wrote: »

Do you mean your sin damaged Jesus, or you? As I see it, it would be both.

The context is my "accepting Jesus" where it was assumed (by old hippy) that my choosing to accept Jesus was something I freely did. This wasn't so. I didn't freely choose to accept him when I accepted him.

Instead, I was forced to my knees and into acceptance of him by the 'weight' of my sin*.

That I didn't believe in God at the time, nor in the fact that my rottenness stemmed from sin wasn't an issue - it was the effect of realising I was rotten that brought me to my knees, not the fact that that the effect is called 'conviction by (own) sin' nor the fact that an unknown God was driving the truck around trying to run me over with it.

The damage done (terminal as it happens) was to my abiliity to maintain a life lived independently from God.

As for Jesus? Once God had caught up with me and let the weight of my own sin crush my rebellion, his criterion for saving me was met and I was pronounced saved. God then continued on with my truck full of sin and dumped it all on Christ.

This has been bugging me for a while, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.]

Does that help?

*my choice in things lies elsewhere than at the point of acceptance.

If I willed it, I could have dodged and ducked and dived my way around - preventing the truck running over me. If I had done that, I'd never have been convinced of how rotten I was and would never have fallen to my knees. And would never have been saved.

In practice, ducking and diving and avoiding involves our denying we have done wrong (or done as wrong as we have done). It involves suppressing the knowledge that we have done wrong - stuffing guilt away and forgetting about it. It involves self-justification: convincing ourselves that "they deserved it anyway" and that "I am within my rights" - when something inside calls softly and says that it isn't right in fact.

We can weave and duck and avoid til the day we die if that is our will. If we desist from escaping we will surely be run over by a truck.

And will surely go "Quack!"

Keaton · 13-10-2011 5:08pm

Yeah, thanks for your reply.

antiskeptic wrote: »

The context is my "accepting Jesus" where it was assumed (by old hippy) that my choosing to accept Jesus was something I freely did. This wasn't so. I didn't freely choose to accept him when I accepted him.

Instead, I was forced to my knees and into acceptance of him by the 'weight' of my sin*.

That I didn't believe in God at the time, nor in the fact that my rottenness stemmed from sin wasn't an issue - it was the effect of realising I was rotten that brought me to my knees, not the fact that that the effect is called 'conviction by (own) sin' nor the fact that an unknown God was driving the truck around trying to run me over with it.

The damage done (terminal as it happens) was to my abiliity to maintain a life lived independently from God.

As for Jesus? Once God had caught up with me and let the weight of my own sin crush my rebellion, his criterion for saving me was met and I was pronounced saved. God then continued on with my truck full of sin and dumped it all on Christ.

Does that help?

*my choice in things lies elsewhere than at the point of acceptance.

If I willed it, I could have dodged and ducked and dived my way around - preventing the truck running over me. If I had done that, I'd never have been convinced of how rotten I was and would never have fallen to my knees. And would never have been saved.

In practice, ducking and diving and avoiding involves our denying we have done wrong (or done as wrong as we have done). It involves suppressing the knowledge that we have done wrong - stuffing guilt away and forgetting about it. It involves self-justification: convincing ourselves that "they deserved it anyway" and that "I am within my rights" - when something inside calls softly and says that it isn't right in fact.

We can weave and duck and avoid til the day we die if that is our will. If we desist from escaping we will surely be run over by a truck.

And will surely go "Quack!"

old hippy · 13-10-2011 5:59pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

The context is my "accepting Jesus" where it was assumed (by old hippy) that my choosing to accept Jesus was something I freely did. This wasn't so. I didn't freely choose to accept him when I accepted him.

Instead, I was forced to my knees and into acceptance of him by the 'weight' of my sin*.

That I didn't believe in God at the time, nor in the fact that my rottenness stemmed from sin wasn't an issue - it was the effect of realising I was rotten that brought me to my knees, not the fact that that the effect is called 'conviction by (own) sin' nor the fact that an unknown God was driving the truck around trying to run me over with it.

The damage done (terminal as it happens) was to my abiliity to maintain a life lived independently from God.

As for Jesus? Once God had caught up with me and let the weight of my own sin crush my rebellion, his criterion for saving me was met and I was pronounced saved. God then continued on with my truck full of sin and dumped it all on Christ.

Does that help?

*my choice in things lies elsewhere than at the point of acceptance.

If I willed it, I could have dodged and ducked and dived my way around - preventing the truck running over me. If I had done that, I'd never have been convinced of how rotten I was and would never have fallen to my knees. And would never have been saved.

In practice, ducking and diving and avoiding involves our denying we have done wrong (or done as wrong as we have done). It involves suppressing the knowledge that we have done wrong - stuffing guilt away and forgetting about it. It involves self-justification: convincing ourselves that "they deserved it anyway" and that "I am within my rights" - when something inside calls softly and says that it isn't right in fact.

We can weave and duck and avoid til the day we die if that is our will. If we desist from escaping we will surely be run over by a truck.

And will surely go "Quack!"

All this talk of crushing independence and rebellion and submitting to a religion sounds a bit mallardjusted to me

antiskeptic · 13-10-2011 7:20pm

old hippy wrote: »

All this talk of crushing independence and rebellion and submitting to a religion sounds a bit mallardjusted to me

F12 · 14-10-2011 7:34pm

old hippy wrote: »

All this talk of crushing independence and rebellion and submitting to a religion sounds a bit mallardjusted to me

You guys just quack me up....

PatricaMcKay2 · 14-10-2011 11:15pm

CorsetRibbons wrote: »

I don't know where to start but I guess it's in the title. I'm gay and have been for as long as I can remember. I can't really remember being any other way. And I believe in God...a God, (but I'm not sure if it's in the biblical sense of the word). To me, God explains the unexplainable and the miracles that happen and I frequently talk to it in my head and pray to it in my heart. It's just with all the constant negative attitude from the church and countless religious devotees toward same sex relationships, I'm finding it increasingly hard to stay focused and make room for God. For a while I wondered if I actually believed in God but on a visit to my very good friend who lives across the other side of the world, I found that we were had so much in common in terms of our beliefs and our morals...only she is straight (and practicing) and I am not.
I'm in a relationship with a woman I love and cherish with all of my heart and somewhere in there I love God too. Is there room for both or am I kidding myself?

There is believing God and believing in God, and than again making up your own God. God accepts sinners through the Precious Blood, but He doesnt expect sin. Stop trying to justify your messed-up-ness.

PDN · 15-10-2011 8:29am

Returning to the OP, you can be gay and believe whatever you want. So being a gay theist is no contradiction at all.

Practising gay sex and living in obedience to biblical morality, however, would be incompatible. And that is the real issue here. Christianity is not just about believing certain intellectual propositions about God's existence. It is about trying to live as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

dead one · 15-10-2011 8:55am

PDN wrote: »

Returning to the OP, you can be gay and believe whatever you want. So being a gay theist is no contradiction at all.
.

Can a gay believer go heaven as per Christianity -- I mean, suppose a gay believes in divinity of Christ / Christianity, being gay, isn't it enough for him to go to heaven or he shouldn't be gay for the ticket of heaven -- I hope you would get the point

PDN · 15-10-2011 9:53am

dead one wrote: »

Can a gay believer go heaven as per Christianity -- I mean, suppose a gay believes in divinity of Christ / Christianity, being gay, isn't it enough for him to go to heaven or he shouldn't be gay for the ticket of heaven -- I hope you would get the point

Can a gay believer can spend Eternal Life with God?

There are two issues here:

1. What is necessary in order to be saved for all Eternity? It is more than simply believing something, rather it requires us to commit our lives to Christ. Committing our lives to Christ means we live life his way.

2. What do you mean by 'a gay'. If you mean someone who feels attracted to the same sex, then that is no barrier to salvation whatsoever. If you mean someone who chooses to engage in sexual activities with the same sex, then that is very different.

IMHO someone who chooses to engage in homosexual acts, and continues to do so without repentance, is deliberately refusing to live as a disciple of Christ. Therefore, it is difficult to see how such a person can be saved without repentance (bear in mind that repentance involves a change of life, not just expressing regret or sorrow).

dead one · 15-10-2011 11:05am

PDN wrote: »

1. What is necessary in order to be saved for all Eternity? It is more than simply believing something, rather it requires us to commit our lives to Christ. Committing our lives to Christ means we live life his way.

right, then from my research, Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.---- If i am ignorant about it then, would you kindly give me reference where Christ condemns same-sex behavior in Bible ---

PDN wrote: »

2. What do you mean by 'a gay'. If you mean someone who feels attracted to the same sex, then that is no barrier to salvation whatsoever. If you mean someone who chooses to engage in sexual activities with the same sex, then that is very different.

I mean both types --- Let's discuss the second type, Is there any possiblity for 2nd type to get into heaven as he is believer --- for example, let's say i am sinner, i am wrong doer, i can't control my self--- i am the worst person on earth, but i believe in Christ --- What will be advantage of my belief? ----Will i be in the hell forever?? or i will be heaven after sometime

PDN · 15-10-2011 11:43am

dead one wrote: »

right, then from my research, Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.---- If i am ignorant about it then, would you kindly give me reference where Christ condemns same-sex behavior in Bible ---

No, and there's no need to. Christians believe both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be the Word of God. It matters little whether a truth is revealed in the New Testament as spoken by Christ, or where another author passes on Christian teaching. Both are considered to be equally inspired by the Holy Spirit and equally authoritative.

I mean both types --- Let's discuss the second type, Is there any possiblity for 2nd type to get into heaven as he is believer --- for example, let's say i am sinner, i am wrong doer, i can't control my self---

Your hypothetical scenario is fatally flawed. You can control yourself. Becoming a Christian is not just believing a set of propositions. It is a new birth by which the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and gives them the power to live a Christian life. Every true Christian has the power to overcome whatever their besetting sin or temptation might be. Therefore, if we continue in sin, we do it by choice. For Christians, we do not have the option of throwing up our hands and saying, "I can't help it - the Devil made me do it!"

i am the worst person on earth, but i believe in Christ --- What will be advantage of my belief? ----Will i be in the hell forever?? or i will be heaven after sometime

There is no advantage to your belief. Simply believing that Jesus existed, or that He is the Son of God, or that He died on the Cross, none of these are enough to be saved. Satan believes all those things.

dead one · 15-10-2011 12:49pm

PDN wrote: »

No, and there's no need to. Christians believe both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be the Word of God.

right, can i ask you one thing, Do you consider those savages as "christian" who spread hatred in the name of Bible --- I mean those people who believed themselves as "christian" but on the other hand, their work didn't represent Bible ---- Like religious persecution, like dungeons --- I mean they had done all this torture keeping bible and Christ in mind --- they have written volumes about it as they were the the true believer and follower Christ ---- the point is you said

Christians believe both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be the Word of God.

Where are true christian who truly believe in bible --- Do they exist any part of world --- I see, today majority of christian are sinner --- they aren't following teaching of Christ --- I can give you thousand of examples --- Does it mean they aren't christian as you had written below --- the bible commands ladies to cover up themselves -- yet many of christian females don't cover themselves --- Are they not christian ----

Your hypothetical scenario is fatally flawed. You can control yourself. Becoming a Christian is not just believing a set of propositions. It is a new birth by which the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and gives them the power to live a Christian life. Every true Christian has the power to overcome whatever their besetting sin or temptation might be. Therefore, if we continue in sin, we do it by choice. For Christians, we do not have the option of throwing up our hands and saying, "I can't help it - the Devil made me do it!"

You say my scenario is fatally flawed but it applies on reality --- Are you saying those christians who believe in Christianity but can't control themselves, aren't christian --- I can give you many example even from priests community who comes into the definition of my hypothesis..... Believe, there is no one so perfect to control his desires --- You can say, you have 90% over your desires but you can't control 100% -- -Yet you are saying a true chiristian is perfect in himself, if that is case then you will see 98% of christianity consists of hypocrites -- only 2% comes into the definition of true christian

PDN wrote: »

Every true Christian has the power to overcome whatever their besetting sin or temptation might be

where are those true christian in the world

PDN wrote: »

There is no advantage to your belief. Simply believing that Jesus existed, or that He is the Son of God, or that He died on the Cross, none of these are enough to be saved. Satan believes all those things.

See, it means if i am legally recognized christian --- i have filled my bio date with religion "Christianity" but i can't control my self against sins then i ain't christian

Are you saying those many christians aren't christian as they can't control themselves ----

PDN · 15-10-2011 1:17pm

dead one wrote: »

right, can i ask you one thing, Do you consider those savages as "christian" who spread hatred in the name of Bible --- I mean those people who believed themselves as "christian" but on the other hand, their work didn't represent Bible ---- Like religious persecution, like dungeons --- I mean they had done all this torture keeping bible and Christ in mind --- they have written volumes about it as they were the the true believer and follower Christ ---- the point is you said

We're getting a long way from the thread topic of homosexuality - but, no, I wouldn't consider those people Christians at all. They were power hungry sinners who cloaked their greed and worldly ambition with a pretence of religion.

Where are true christian who truly believe in bible --- Do they exist any part of world --- I see, today majority of christian are sinner --- they aren't following teaching of Christ --- I can give you thousand of examples --- Does it mean they aren't christian as you had written below --- the bible commands ladies to cover up themselves -- yet many of christian females don't cover themselves --- Are they not christian ----

Now you're way off topic. The Bible does not command women to cover themselves from head to toe - and we are not going to allow this thread to be hijacked into a platform for you to push Muslim ideas about how women should dress. Understood?

I know thousands of sincere Christians who are endeavouring to live as disciples of Christ and to follow the teachings of the Bible.

You say my scenario is fatally flawed but it applies on reality --- Are you saying those christians who believe in Christianity but can't control themselves, aren't christian --- I can give you many example even from priests community who comes into the definition of my hypothesis.....

No, you can't give me any examples. You can give examples, as can I, of people who professed to be Christians but chose to commit sin. You cannot demonstrate that they were genuinely unable to control themselves.

Believe, there is no one so perfect to control his desires --- You can say, you have 90% over your desires but you can't control 100% -- -Yet you are saying a true chiristian is perfect in himself, if that is case then you will see 98% of christianity consists of hypocrites -- only 2% comes into the definition of true christian

The New Testament tells us about certain practices that are incompatible with Christianity. I do believe that every true Christian has control over their actions. No true Christian would claim, "Ah I just can't control myself, that's why I murder people!" The same would apply to adultery, fornication and idolatry.

Can you please quote your sources for the 98% and the 2%, or did you just make them up?

where are those true christian in the world

There's hundreds of millions of them, in every country in the world, and the number is growing every day.

See, it means if i am legally recognized christian --- i have filled my bio date with religion "Christianity" but i can't control my self against sins then i ain't christian
-

Legal recognition as a Christian counts for nothing in the sight of God. In many countries it simply means that you were born to parents who profess to be Christians. I could fill in astronaut as my profession in my 'bio date' (whatever that is) but that would not make me a real astronaut.

Are you saying those many christians aren't christian as they can't control themselves ---

I am saying what the New Testament says, that people who choose to practice certain sins have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God. As for this excuse about not being able to control themselves, that may be true in extreme cases of genuine addictive substances, but in most cases it is just a pathetic excuse by people who make bad choices and lack the courage to be accountable for the consequences of those choices.

richymcdermott · 15-10-2011 3:58pm

I dont know if this helps , but i thought this was worth listening too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIw6ngIqaD0

I think ravi zacharias is a brilliant man , hes the only one i listen too.

Would like to add its not right that the church or anybody would bash gays.

dead one · 18-10-2011 11:40am

PDN wrote: »

I wouldn't consider those people Christians at all.

why wouldn't you, do you know what lies in their hearts --- Are you saying, they hadn't accepted Jesus in their hearts --- They had done all that--- in the name of sword --- in the name of most merciful christ --- Honestly, it would be greater injustice to judge their faith --- Souls of those christian won't find peace with your words--- As they were sincere christian at their mortal times --- So you are in your mortal times ---- See, what future will say about you...

PDN wrote: »

We're getting a long way from the thread topic of homosexuality

we ain't getting a long a way --- It is very close to thread --- Why, a gay who chooses same sex behavior, will not go heaven, as you don't know ,how much he has faith in his heart -- on the other hand, you are saying those majority of christian who believe in OT and NT, will go to heaven ---- See, i am not dishonest, many christians,today , in the world, haven't read whole bible in their lives --- They haven't touched Bible with their hands how they could read it --- it is very difficulty to read a book which has got so many version ---- and believing and understanding in it, is quite difficult task --- my posts and my point are in connection with the original point --- why faith doesn't matter, even for a sinner or a gay who can't resist desires ---

PDN wrote: »

The Bible does not command women to cover themselves from head to toe - and we are not going to allow this thread to be hijacked into a platform for you to push Muslim ideas about how women should dress. Understood?

So, you have created your own version of bible, As i had already said, my each point, will support the original idea --- why, it is difficult for a second typed gay, not to go to heaven on the other hand majority Christians, in the world, are sinner and aren't true --- I had given you example of women, majority of women today, in Christianity, aren't following laws Bible

1 CORINTHIANS 11:6 -- "For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

Why would a 2nd typed go to hell, even he has got faith in Jesus Christ ---- Where majority of Christian aren't following this Command --- Isn't it meant they don't believe in Bible --- Yet they say, they will go to heaven

PDN wrote: »

I know thousands of sincere Christians who are endeavouring to live as disciples of Christ and to follow the teachings of the Bible.

I know many Christians who think themselves sincere, in mission of Christ but their lives are opposite to message of Christ --- They even don't know what is written in Bible --- They are living a free life without bible but they have faith in Christ and they say, their faith will save them from hell ---

PDN wrote: »

The New Testament tells us about certain practices that are incompatible with Christianity. I do believe that every true Christian has control over their actions.

I do believe that, that true christian doesn't exist in any part of world --- So you are true in your belief

PDN wrote: »

No true Christian would claim, "Ah I just can't control myself, that's why I murder people!" The same would apply to adultery, fornication and idolatry.

No true christian would judge other people's faith

PDN wrote: »

I wouldn't consider those people Christians at all.

See, PDN, if someone chooses faith in Christ , No matter, how sinner is he, you have no right to judge his faith --- Faith is matter which rest with God alone

PDN wrote: »

Can you please quote your sources for the 98% and the 2%, or did you just make them up?

I can't quote, because, what i said, is based on your remarks ---

PDN wrote: »

Every true Christian has the power to overcome whatever their besetting sin or temptation might be.

and i am saying there aren't true christian around, if i apply your statement on reality --- reality is opposite to your statement ---

PDN wrote: »

There's hundreds of millions of them, in every country in the world, and the number is growing every day.

Yes, there hundreds of millions of them, they call themselves chrsitian and dont come into you definition of true christian --- You know it very difficult to be true christian in this age---

PDN wrote: »

Legal recognition as a Christian counts for nothing in the sight of God. In many countries it simply means that you were born to parents who profess to be Christians. I could fill in astronaut as my profession in my 'bio date' (whatever that is) but that would not make me a real astronaut.

God knows what lies in heart and you don't --- you indirectly claim to be god by judging people's faith ---

Gay & Believing - Is there room for both?

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